Is this the start of the Tribulation?

Doom

With so many earthquakes,disasters,corruption,religous abuse, finanical meltdown occuring lately, could this be the start of the end?

The world needs a sign now more than it ever has before, I think there is more evil out there than ever before, even the little kid on the street corner would attack and rob you these days, and people only care about money and materialistic things.

Truley

I think you are overreacting just a tiny bit. Earthquakes, religious abuse, financial meltdowns etc etc have occured in the past too you know. Its a by product of the modern age, with it's instant communication and media influence to feel like you are being inundated with what seems like every problem in the world. In reality 95% of the world haven't been directly affected by any of the problems you mentioned above. If you use the internet alot, or read/watch the news it can certainly feel that way. For example have you actually been robbed by a kid in the street or are you just speculating. I suggest spending less time on the net and in front of the tv and spending more time outdoors and with the people around you. That way you will get a more realistic perspective of what the world is really like.

If the world ever does come to an end it won't be in chaos, it will be in conformity.

mehfesto

I agree. The 1980s had a severe recession too, Chernobyl happened, AIDS was discovered, holes in the ozone discovered, challenger exploded and there was about as much seismic activity (if I've used the term correctly) as there is today.

It's all about buying into the hype surrounding it.



...bird-flu, anyone?

kelly1

Doom wrote: »

With so many earthquakes,disasters,corruption,religous abuse, finanical meltdown occuring lately, could this be the start of the end?

You never know, literally.

Doom wrote: »

The world needs a sign now more than it ever has before, I think there is more evil out there than ever before, even the little kid on the street corner would attack and rob you these days, and people only care about money and materialistic things.

What kind of sign have you got in mind?

BTW, you name is very appropriate!

Truley

mehfesto wrote: »

...bird-flu, anyone?

Pfft where have you been? It's all about the swine flu these days :cool:

smokingman

I see a lot of speculation about Papa Raztsi being the "beast from the sea" from Revelations 16; given his actions of late, I wouldn't be surprised.

'Course that would assume I have any belief but if I had, I'd be seeing a lot of signs lately.

ocokev

Doom wrote: »

With so many earthquakes,disasters,corruption,religous abuse, finanical meltdown occuring lately, could this be the start of the end?.

First you have to put a time frame on events.
Are we talking a week,month,year,decade etc so you can compair one set of events with another.

The world needs a sign now more than it ever has before, I think there is more evil out there than ever before, even the little kid on the street corner would attack and rob you these days, and people only care about money and materialistic things.

There is not necessarily more evil out there, rather; evil is more reported now than ever before.
People were always intrested in money and objects of desire hence modern society.
Back for instance in the bronze age look at all the artifacts and materialist things that were discovered, and im sure if a kid back then wanted to have something he would more than rob you to get it.
It has probably got to do with several tectonic faults having a knock on effect. Eg if you lay a plate on a table and tilt one side up, then the other side moves down. Hence it is possible for each plate in the earth to cause a knock on effect to another ajoining plate.

PDN

The Tribulation is supposed to be worse than anything that ever occurred before.

What we're seeing at present is really pretty minor compared to some of the events that have occurred in the last 2000 years (eg the Black Death).

Blueboyd

No the end is not near. Concentrate on here and now.

StealthRolex

smokingman wrote: »

I see a lot of speculation about Papa Raztsi being the "beast from the sea" from Revelations 16; given his actions of late, I wouldn't be surprised.

'Course that would assume I have any belief but if I had, I'd be seeing a lot of signs lately.

Those paparazzi are pretty bad - look what they did to Lady Di

Actually Revelation 16 contains a lot of bad things happening and instead of recognizing them as signs and repenting people instead blame and curse God.

Does that sound familiar?

StealthRolex

ocokev wrote: »

There is not necessarily more evil out there, rather; evil is more reported now than ever before.
People were always intrested in money and objects of desire hence modern society.
Back for instance in the bronze age look at all the artifacts and materialist things that were discovered, and im sure if a kid back then wanted to have something he would more than rob you to get it.

I'm not sure I would agree with this. Sure in the past we did not have the media and communications systems we have today so evil is being seen as more reported but then again there are a lot of things that in the past were considered evil which are now becoming common place and more acceptable in society.

Divorce - leading to adultery if one or both partners remarries or takes a new partner.
Abortion - has increased steadily since it became a "routine medical procedure" and is denied as murder or killing by many Christians as well as non-Christians
same-sex relationships and marriages are now accepted in societies across the world.
Pornography is rife in the internet age and becoming mainstream
Prostitution is seen as acceptable employment in some countries and is increasingly being seen as nothing more than a hobby for the punters
Shops, services(non-religious) and entertainments are open on Sundays
Sexualization of children whether it is by exposure to MTv (as e.g.) or participation in "Barbi" contests.
Paedophilia - not just the RC scandal but wherever it happens and worse when it is incestuous paedophilia.
Fornication is no longer considered sinful
Corporate theft and oppression of the workers
Banking practices.
The use of lies to make a living wither in the media or by litigation and compensation lawyers.
Ethnic cleansing and rape deployed as weapons of war despite the fact that after WWII we promised never to forget.

The list is almost endless (apologies for mixing up acceptable evil with the unacceptable)

I would invite anyone to look at history and find a time when there was more evil than there is today. What makes it worse is that we seem to be happy changing our minds on what evil is.

ocokev

StealthRolex wrote: »

I would invite anyone to look at history and find a time when there was more evil than there is today. What makes it worse is that we seem to be happy changing our minds on what evil is.

1939-1945

StealthRolex

ocokev wrote: »

1939-1945

Hmm - compare the number of abortions since it's legalization to the total number killed in WWII

That's one of the points I'm trying to make.

Truley

StealthRolex wrote: »

Hmm - compare the number of abortions since it's legalization to the total number killed in WWII

That's one of the points I'm trying to make.

Just because something is legalized doesn't mean it happens more. People have been having abortions, seeing prostitutes and committing adultery since the beginning of time, which brings us back to the point that the more something is recorded or reported the more it appears commonplace or accepted when in fact often the opposite is the case. Divorce and rape two more good examples.

StealthRolex

Truley wrote: »

Just because something is legalized doesn't mean it happens more. People have been having abortions, seeing prostitutes and committing adultery since the beginning of time, which brings us back to the point that the more something is recorded or reported the more it appears commonplace or accepted when in fact often the opposite is the case. Divorce and rape two more good examples.

Fair point however it is not just a case of reportage. There are also more people on the planet now than there were in the middle of the last century so the numbers committing these sins has also increased, and as various evils are legaized so more people are likely to indulge.

JimiTime

IMO (An important distinction in these topics), rather than the tribulation starting, the seeds are being/have been planted for the tribulation to come. I personally think its going to be quite a few generations before the fruits appear.

StealthRolex

JimiTime wrote: »

IMO (An important distinction in these topics), rather than the tribulation starting, the seeds are being/have been planted for the tribulation to come. I personally think its going to be quite a few generations before the fruits appear.

Nah - Bring it on! This world needs a good purge...

PDN

StealthRolex wrote: »

Fair point however it is not just a case of reportage. There are also more people on the planet now than there were in the middle of the last century so the numbers committing these sins has also increased, and as various evils are legaized so more people are likely to indulge.

I think you need to take a longer look at history, and a more extensive look at what is happening worldwide.

Let's look at some of the stuff you've mentioned.

Divorce - leading to adultery if one or both partners remarries or takes a new partner.

For the most part of human history divorce has been practised, but also polygamy. Today, I would guess, a larger proportion of the world practices the one man/one woman/ married for life model of marriage than ever before.

Abortion - has increased steadily since it became a "routine medical procedure" and is denied as murder or killing by many Christians as well as non-Christians

Abortions have occurred for centuries - but are probably more common today because medical advances mean they can be carried out more safely (for the mother, obviously not for the baby) than in previous generations.

In previous cultures they practiced infanticide instead.

same-sex relationships and marriages are now accepted in societies across the world.

At least they're between consenting adults, rather than the homosexual rape and paedophilia that characterised Ancient Greece etc.

Pornography is rife in the internet age and becoming mainstream
Prostitution is seen as acceptable employment in some countries and is increasingly being seen as nothing more than a hobby for the punters

Nothing new there then. A look at the artifacts recovered from Pompeii suggest that they practised prostitution at a level that far exceeds modern Las Vegas.

Shops, services(non-religious) and entertainments are open on Sundays

For most of history, most cultures in the world have not seen Sunday as special.

I fail to see why anyone would see Shops opening on Sunday as a sign of wickedness. Those who do believe in Sunday observance (based on faulty theology IMHO) should no more see this as a rise of wickedness than Jews would see a rise of wickedness because many people are eating bacon. It's a ritual thing that you're welcome to observe if you want.

Sexualization of children whether it is by exposure to MTv (as e.g.) or participation in "Barbi" contests.
Paedophilia - not just the RC scandal but wherever it happens and worse when it is incestuous paedophilia.

Kids used to regularly get married when they were 11 or 12. Heck, it's only 150 years since the UK raised the age of consent to 16 (a move provoked by an aggressive campaign by the Salvation Army highlighting child prostitution in London). I think we have further to go, but today children are more protected from sexual exploitation and abuse than at any time in history.

Fornication is no longer considered sinful

Nor has been throughout most of human history.

Corporate theft and oppression of the workers

Slavery in Ancient Greece and Rome? The North Atlantic slave trade?

Banking practices.

The Medici family? Ripping off people's deposits in order to finance papal candidates bribing their way to the throne.

The use of lies to make a living wither in the media or by litigation and compensation lawyers.

Soviet propaganda? Lawyers have always been liars.

Ethnic cleansing and rape deployed as weapons of war despite the fact that after WWII we promised never to forget.

These were routine weapons of war for most of human history. Heck, read up on what the Crusaders did to their fellow Christians when they captured Constantinople.

I would invite anyone to look at history and find a time when there was more evil than there is today.

I would say any period of history would do. We live in an age where, in general, humanity treats one another better than ever before. There are still atrocities etc, but we get agitated about these because they are the exceptions, whereas in previous generations they were the norm.

krudler

StealthRolex wrote: »

.

same-sex relationships and marriages are now accepted in societies across the world.

good, means we're advancing as a people.

Prostitution is seen as acceptable employment in some countries and is increasingly being seen as nothing more than a hobby for the punters

It is the worlds oldest profession after all.

Shops, services(non-religious) and entertainments are open on Sundays

Isnt Saturday supposed to be the sabbath day?

Fornication is no longer considered sinful

Nor should it be, sex for enjoyment rather than procreation is an important part of being human.

Ethnic cleansing and rape deployed as weapons of war despite the fact that after WWII we promised never to forget.

You're right, back in the olden days everyone tried to kill each other like civilised people. The Romans used to lay siege to a town and catapult rotting animal carcasses over the walls to spread disease.

krudler

StealthRolex wrote: »

Hmm - compare the number of abortions since it's legalization to the total number killed in WWII

That's one of the points I'm trying to make.

Yeah killing unborn children who arent fully formed humans yet is exactly the same as ethnic cleansing actual human beings and nearly wiping a race of people off the face of the earth, destroying familes, resulting in millions dead around the world and changing history forever :rolleyes:

dvpower

StealthRolex wrote: »

Nah - Bring it on! This world needs a good purge...

There's confidence for ye.

StealthRolex

krudler wrote: »

Yeah killing unborn children who arent fully formed humans yet is exactly the same as ethnic cleansing actual human beings and nearly wiping a race of people off the face of the earth, destroying familes, resulting in millions dead around the world and changing history forever :rolleyes:

To me they are one and the same - take the Chinese forced abortion policy as an example, ethnic cleansing based on sex.
Similarly in India where girls are aborted.

In the western world it is due to or instead of contraception and it can destroy families where the mother aborts against the fathers wishes or the father forced the abortion on the mother.

As for changing history - well, we'll never know as the child never got the chance.

In scientific terms aborted humans are actual human beings

StealthRolex

PDN wrote: »

I think you need to take a longer look at history, and a more extensive look at what is happening worldwide.

I take the point PDN but in a nutshell what I wanted to point out is that we can take each and every one of the Ten Commandments and demonstrate that in general practice they are no longer treated as sins or evils in the Christian world.

It does not matter that the practice happened the past - the OP is referring to the current world.

There was never a time in the past when there were more people than today and it goes that if it was a sin or evil then there will be more of it now.

StealthRolex

PDN wrote: »

I would say any period of history would do. We live in an age where, in general, humanity treats one another better than ever before. There are still atrocities etc, but we get agitated about these because they are the exceptions, whereas in previous generations they were the norm.

That's it - we get agitated!!!

Back in 1939 we signed up in droves to save the world. Now as long as a dictator keeps within his own borders he can pretty much do what he likes as long as he doesn't have any oil.

StealthRolex

PDN wrote: »

Nothing new there then. A look at the artifacts recovered from Pompeii suggest that they practised prostitution at a level that far exceeds modern Las Vegas.

I's not questioning the practice of it in a pagan culture I'm pointing out that if you tot up the number of prostitutes and the number of pornographic actors the current total probably equals the worlds population at the time Pompeii was destroyed.

Whatever about prostitution, at least there is some discretion but with pornography - that can haunt a participant for the rest of their lives. In the past it was the written word or the still picture or artwork. Now it is available everywhere without control or censorship.
Dial up, plug in, get your rocks off baby...

Was Pompeii destroyed like Sodom and Gomorrah or just another coincidence?

krudler

StealthRolex wrote: »

I's not questioning the practice of it in a pagan culture I'm pointing out that if you tot up the number of prostitutes and the number of pornographic actors the current total probably equals the worlds population at the time Pompeii was destroyed.

Whatever about prostitution, at least there is some discretion but with pornography - that can haunt a participant for the rest of their lives. In the past it was the written word or the still picture or artwork. Now it is available everywhere without control or censorship.
Dial up, plug in, get your rocks off baby...

Was Pompeii destroyed like Sodom and Gomorrah or just another coincidence?

I always knew Ron Jeremy would have a hand in the end of the world

StealthRolex

krudler wrote: »

I always knew Ron Jeremy would have a hand in the end of the world

A hand???

Truley

StealthRolex wrote: »

Was Pompeii destroyed like Sodom and Gomorrah or just another coincidence?

I thought it was a volcano :pac:

ISAW

StealthRolex wrote: »

I's not questioning the practice of it in a pagan culture I'm pointing out that if you tot up the number of prostitutes and the number of pornographic actors the current total probably equals the worlds population at the time Pompeii was destroyed.

So your basis is that if there are MORE people sinning now then it is more likely the end of the world is imminent?

There are more faithful now as well. At the time of Pompeii what per cent of the world population was christian? half a percent . A hundredth of a percent? Nowadays it is about a third of the world population.

furthermore if the criterion for Armageddon is "more sinners" then what about the year 3,000 or 2,500? surely there will be even more sinners then?

Whatever about prostitution, at least there is some discretion but with pornography - that can haunt a participant for the rest of their lives. In the past it was the written word or the still picture or artwork. Now it is available everywhere without control or censorship.
Dial up, plug in, get your rocks off baby...

and technology also gives us access to information on how to help people in Haiti and Sudan.

Was Pompeii destroyed like Sodom and Gomorrah or just another coincidence?

Coincidence? Like you are saying that the volcano happened at the same time as what?

StealthRolex

ISAW wrote: »

So your basis is that if there are MORE people sinning now then it is more likely the end of the world is imminent?

I didn't say that.

ISAW wrote: »

There are more faithful now as well. At the time of Pompeii what per cent of the world population was christian? half a percent . A hundredth of a percent? Nowadays it is about a third of the world population.

furthermore if the criterion for Armageddon is "more sinners" then what about the year 3,000 or 2,500? surely there will be even more sinners then?

The OP is concerned with the Tribulation and contends that there is more evil now than in the past. I support the idea that there is more evil around because there are more people than at any time in the past and what used to be considered sins or evil acts are no longer considered so. Furthermore these evils appear to be encouraged more that discouraged.
Unless we change our ways then yes, if we are allowed a future, there will be more unrepentant sinners. However no one is suggesting that the criterion for Armageddon is "more sinners" except you.

ISAW wrote: »

and technology also gives us access to information on how to help people in Haiti and Sudan.

I was attacking pornography not the technology and pointing out that pornography is becoming mainstream.

ISAW wrote: »

Coincidence? Like you are saying that the volcano happened at the same time as what?

PDN pointed out that prostitution was more widely practiced in Pompeii than in present day Las Vegas but with an estimated population of 20,000 in Pompeii against Las Vegas 1,865,000 I'm having a hard time deciphering that as a rebuttal.
So was it a coincidence that Pompeii was destroyed in a similar manner to Sodom and Gomorrah or was it another act of God.

PDN

StealthRolex wrote: »

PDN pointed out that prostitution was more widely practiced in Pompeii than in present day Las Vegas but with an estimated population of 20,000 in Pompeii against Las Vegas 1,865,000 I'm having a hard time deciphering that as a rebuttal.

The key issue would surely be how wicked the average person is today as compared to previous generations, not that there are more people on the earth therefore they are more wicked because there is a great sum total of wickedness.

If you apply that kind of thinking to other areas then you can end up arguing that the people who live in Nigeria are three times wealthier than the inhabitants of Luxemburg.

StealthRolex

PDN wrote: »

The key issue would surely be how wicked the average person is today as compared to previous generations, not that there are more people on the earth therefore they are more wicked because there is a great sum total of wickedness.

If you apply that kind of thinking to other areas then you can end up arguing that the people who live in Nigeria are three times wealthier than the inhabitants of Luxemburg.

Fair point - general wickness has increased and while there are more people and hence proportionately more good people, the good are not good enough because the really good people are few in number and there are more people who think they are good but when compared to their ability to keep to the Commandments they are really more bad than good.

On balance the world is more evil because we have come to accept evil as the price of modernity and being progressive. Chastity was good for our grand parents because they didn't know any better - we know better and consider promiscuity to be more natural than serial monogamy which in turn is more natural than monogamy which is more natural than celibacy.

Shall we turn to greed? In the not too recent past many were falling over themselves to take the money the banks were giving away to either get onto the housing ladder in a rising market that would never fall or raise second, third, however many mortages to acquired a property portfolio. Would the brown envelope to ensure an agricultural to residental planning decision in ones favour be wicked? Of course not - sure everyone is doing it.

And then it all falls apart and we look to blame the bankers and politicians without looking at ourselves to see how our culture and nature allowed them lead us up the garden path.

Whether this is the start of the Tribulation or not, whether these financial crises, natural disasters, minor wars, petty genocides, mass rapes, child abuse and any other everyday newsworthy reportage are warnings of an impending Tribulation to come one fact remains. We can all meet our Maker at any time - a drunk driver, an absent minded bus driver, an accidental fall, an unknown weakness in a blood vessel in our brain, an overdose of cocaine, a dirty hit or even too clean a hit. It could be anything, at any time. Are we ready to meet Him face to face and give an account of ourselves?

I'm not.

PDN

StealthRolex wrote: »

We can all meet our Maker at any time - a drunk driver, an absent minded bus driver, an accidental fall, an unknown weakness in a blood vessel in our brain, an overdose of cocaine, a dirty hit or even too clean a hit. It could be anything, at any time. Are we ready to meet Him face to face and give an account of ourselves?

I'm not.

Yes, I'm ready.

I know better than anyone else how pathetic my moral track record and spiritual score card should be.

But I am also confident that on that day the record books will be opened and it will be revealed that nothing bad will be entered against my name. Because, in the words of an Johnny Cash song, through the sacrifice of Christ on the Cross "the old account was settled long ago."

Chorus: Long ago (down on my knees), Long ago (I setted it all)
Yes, the old account was settled long ago; (Hallelujah!)
And the record's clear today, For He washed my sins away,
When the old account was settled long ago.

There was a time on earth, When in the book of Heav'n
An old account was standing For sins yet unforgiv'n;
My name was at the top, And many things below,
I went unto the keeper, And settled long ago.

The old account was large, And growing ev'ry day,
For I was always sinning, And never tried to pay;
But When I looked ahead, And saw such pain and woe,
I said that I would settle, I settled long ago.

When in that happy home, My Saviour's home above,
I'll sing redemption's story, And praise Him for His love;
I'll not forget that book, With pages white as snow,
Because I came and settled, And settled long ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_WQLtBGxj4