"shepard isn't even on Jacobs lost"

Jay Ru

I'm currently watching an ep from season 3. It's the one where Jack operates on Bens spine. As the surgury begins Danny leaves the observation to go and kill Sawyer to get revenge for Sun killing his wife. On his way to the cage Danny has a conversation with the guy that's with him and at the end of it he say, "Shepard isn't even on Jacobs list anyway"

Does anyone know of this was explained or proved to be a wrong statement at a later date?

Sad Professor

No, it was never explained. In fact the hole gets bigger: Patchy said later in the season that Kate, Locke, Sayid, etc weren't on "the list" either because they were "flawed".

So was a different list obviously. Ben did refer to "all those lists" that Jacob gave Richard. What the purpose of this earlier one was I've no idea. The writers were asked about this a while ago and they sort of dismissed it as another one of Ben's lies, which is how they respond to most plot holes that get pointed out to them these days.

I'm open to any good fanwanks, but imo this "list" business was retconned several times.

jimbling

Well it would be utter crap if they wrote it off as just another of Bens lies... have you got a link for that SP?

Ya, those lists have been kind of forgotten about though..... and it doesn't look like there'll be any explanation of them whatsoever. I would have liked to think something could be said about them in a podcast or something. It wouldn't be that hard to tie them in somehow.

Penn

I had a theory that, when a candidate is struck off the main candidate list (because they are not deemed worthy to replace Jacob), Jacob then gives their names to Richard, who gives it to Ben. The Others then kidnap those people and take them, in order to protect them from Smokey, as maybe Smokey can kill someone once they've been crossed off the list.

So Jack, Kate, Sayid etc not being on the list would make sense if they aren't talking about the actual list of candidates left. Take Cindy for example (presuming she was a candidate):

Cindy arrives on the island
It is determined that she is not worthy of replacing Jacob
Jacob gives Richard a list with Cindy's name on it
Richard gives it to Ben
Ben organises Cindy to be captured
They take her to the Others
They protect her from Smokey and she becomes one of the Others

So even though, in Ben's eyes, she was on Jacob's list, she was actually no longer on the main list.

Same with what Mikhail said. Maybe he believed the lists were people who were worthy of joining the Others. So he thought Kate and Sayid were flawed.

Ben saying Locke was on a list and he came for him may have been Ben lying for some reason. I don't know about that one

damnyanks

Ah could be lots of reasons right? Ben never actually talked to Jacob did he? Maybe there skills were useful or maybe it was to do with kids on the island.

dudeitshurley

paddyirishman85 wrote: »

I had a theory that, when a candidate is struck off the main candidate list (because they are not deemed worthy to replace Jacob), Jacob then gives their names to Richard, who gives it to Ben. The Others then kidnap those people and take them, in order to protect them from Smokey, as maybe Smokey can kill someone once they've been crossed off the list.

This is convuluted and nonsensical.

So you are proposing that the Smoke Monster reads these written lists and decides "hmmm i see such n such is now crossed off, i can now kill them if i want to"????

More to the point, The Others made no attempt to specifically protect anybody from the Smokey Monster. Think about it, the safest place on the island at the time was The Temple, if they were kidnapping them to protect them why not force them to live there?

Even more relevant, had they any need to protect them from the Smoke Monster? Something that always bugged me and perhaps you can suggest a theory for this - how and why was Ben able to "summon" the Smoke Monster in "The Shape of Things to Come"?***

Point being, why would they need to protect them from something they had at least some element of control over at the time?


IMO your theory is all retrospective or retroactively thought out. i.e. fitting a theory now to try make sense of something that happened in earlier seasons. Its nonsensical in a linear fashion as the show developed.



*** - Smoke Monster summoned by Ben and proceeded to attack only Keamys group. Which at the time indicated that Ben and the Others had some element of control over it.

dudeitshurley

Personally i have strong doubts that at the time of "The Shape of Things to Come" the writers had planned on the Smoke Monster turning out to be MIB.

Sad Professor

jimbling wrote:

Well it would be utter crap if they wrote it off as just another of Bens lies... have you got a link for that SP?

I can't seem to find it now. But I'm pretty sure they said it at the Paleyfest panel.

dudeitshurley wrote: »

More to the point, The Others made no attempt to specifically protect anybody from the Smokey Monster. Think about it, the safest place on the island at the time was The Temple, if they were kidnapping them to protect them why not force them to live there?

But they did, didn't they? That's where they took Cindy and the kids, and I assume the others that they took. Everyone else may have been a candidate, which could possibly explain why only some people time-travelled.

As Creep Boy's comments to MIB suggest, there may be a rule preventing Smokey from killing candidates. So lets say that the list the Others were working off was of non-candidates who needed protection at the Temple. Didn't the Others try to kidnap Eko? And Eko was the only Lostie (other than the pilot) who we saw directly killed by Smokey.

Sad Professor

dudeitshurley wrote: »

Even more relevant, had they any need to protect them from the Smoke Monster? Something that always bugged me and perhaps you can suggest a theory for this - how and why was Ben able to "summon" the Smoke Monster in "The Shape of Things to Come"?***

Point being, why would they need to protect them from something they had at least some element of control over at the time?

*** - Smoke Monster summoned by Ben and proceeded to attack only Keamys group. Which at the time indicated that Ben and the Others had some element of control over it.

I know Ben controlling Smokey was a popular theory at the time, but I always found it flawed. We already learned in season 3 that the sonic fences were used to keep Smokey out of the Barracks. If the Others had any control over Smokey, why would they need them?

Ben just called Smokey. He had no control over it, that's why he told everyone to run. My question is how he came to know about this "hotline" and what prior knowledge he had of MIB. He seems pretty clueless this season.

dudeitshurley

Sad Professor wrote: »

I can't seem to find it now. But I'm pretty sure they said it at the Paleyfest panel.


But they did, didn't they? That's where they took Cindy and the kids, and I assume the others that they took. Everyone else may have been a candidate, which could possibly explain why only some people time-travelled.

As Creep Boy's comments to MIB suggest, there may be a rule preventing Smokey from killing candidates. So lets say that the list the Others were working off was of non-candidates who needed protection at the Temple. Didn't the Others try to kidnap Eko? And Eko was the only Lostie (other than the pilot) who we saw directly killed by Smokey.

Few points, no particular order and Not sure if i can word this correctly but i'll try

If we are to assume everyone not at The Temple is/was a candidate and there are only 6 candidates left, why hasn't Smokey just annihilated every non-candidate left on the Island over the duration of the show?

My main problem with the MIB/Smokey thing is this: we know now that MIB = Smokey, given the backstory thus far in s6 does it appear as though he is in some way enslaved? Put another way, it doesn't quite tally that he would be someone who could be called upon in the manner that Ben did. At the time when we saw Smokey being summoned we had no concept that "it" was in fact a "he". It doesn't feel right to me that Ben could just summon MIB by going to a secret room and "commanding" his presence.

(Also as you correctly point out, Ben has been shown to be utterly clueless in the grand scheme of things and also Richard to an extent, so how either Ben/Richard would know how to summon him is beyond me. Also is there anything to stop them from still summoning him? If not, why don't they do that and try trap him somehow? circle of ash or something?)

My main gripe with the theory is that all these lists going back to earlier seasons were to do with a concept only introduced relatively recently - i.e. candidates. Which at the time i'm sure can't have been even conceived. In general theories to make stuff retroactively make sense seem a little convoluted to me because at the time they were introduced, the lists for example, they can't have been introduced to suit a particular concept.

Psychedelic

Sad Professor wrote: »

I know Ben controlling Smokey was a popular theory at the time, but I always found it flawed. We already learned in season 3 that the sonic fences were used to keep Smokey out of the Barracks. If the Others had any control over Smokey, why would they need them?

Ben just called Smokey. He had no control over it, that's why he told everyone to run. My question is how he came to know about this "hotline" and what prior knowledge he had of MIB. He seems pretty clueless this season.

I was thinking about this the other day and I came up with a theory on how Ben 'summoned' the smoke monster.

The smoke monster can't get into the barracks because of the sonic fenses. But what if there was an undergound tunnel somewhere (see blast door map) which went underneath the sonic fenses, and maybe it came out at a well like the one from Everybody Loves Hugo, or just some other hole in the ground inside the barracks?

Now, let's say this tunnel was filled with water, and when we see Ben drain a pool of water in one of the barracks houses, he somehow drains the tunnel, allowing the smoke monster to travel through it, and thus enter the barracks?

Ben didn't have control of the smoke monster, he merely helped it bypass the sonic fenses to get into the barracks, and then it killed Keamy's men.

dudeitshurley

Psychedelic wrote: »

I was thinking about this the other day and I came up with a theory on how Ben 'summoned' the smoke monster.

The smoke monster can't get into the barracks because of the sonic fenses. But what if there was an undergound tunnel somewhere (see blast door map) which went underneath the sonic fenses, and maybe it came out at a well like the one from Everybody Loves Hugo, or just some other hole in the ground inside the barracks?

Now, let's say this tunnel was filled with water, and when we see Ben drain a pool of water in one of the barracks houses, he somehow drains the tunnel, allowing the smoke monster to travel through it, and thus enter the barracks?

Ben didn't have control of the smoke monster, he merely helped it bypass the sonic fenses to get into the barracks, and then it killed Keamy's men.

Correct me if i'm wrong but wasn't the secret room pretty old looking? i.e. predating the Sonic Fences? the Sonic Fences can only have been a relatively recent thing in the scheme of the island. Also, as i said above even if Ben has no control over what MIB does when he "summoned" him what exactly did he expect? Random carnage?!

Also, why would the Losties have to run and hide from it? If they were candidates at the time then Smokey couldn't have harmed them. And if they weren't well then they should have been in The Temple protected by The Others. Nah this theory holds no water for me but i do hope they present SOME sort of plausible explanation, even if it is a an explicitly lame one like the Whispers one.

Penn

dudeitshurley wrote: »

So you are proposing that the Smoke Monster reads these written lists and decides "hmmm i see such n such is now crossed off, i can now kill them if i want to"????

No, he scans them. We've seen him scanning people in the past. He scanned Eko, then just flew off. Yet a while later, he appeared to Eko as Yemi, Eko said he wouldn't ask for forgiveness for his past sins, then Smokey killed him. Eko not repenting may mean he was no longer suitable to be a candidate, so Smokey was able to kill him. Why not just kill him the first time? Why mess with him? Let's face it, he's never seemed shy about killing anyone before. Plus, he says he needs the candidates in order to leave the island together, but there were hundreds of names on the lists. He obviously didn't need any of them, but they're not even all dead. Kate and Claire aren't candidates. If he doesn't need any of the other few hundred candidates, surely he might only need one, and he could kill the others. Unless he can't actually kill the candidates.

More to the point, The Others made no attempt to specifically protect anybody from the Smokey Monster. Think about it, the safest place on the island at the time was The Temple, if they were kidnapping them to protect them why not force them to live there?

There is another reason I used Cindy as my example. They took her and the children. Since then, we saw her on Hydra Island (Smokey can't travel there. Presumably he can now as he has a body, but as a smoke monster he couldn't), we saw her in the Barracks with Ben (protected from Smokey by the Sonic Fence), then in the Temple (protected from Smokey by the ash circle). They kidnapped these people, at least 10 from the original tailies, yet we see Cindy, Zack and Emma living happily with The Others. The Others had their names on lists, so those very specific names had to come from somewhere. You say The Others made no attempt to protect anyone from Smokey, but after these people were taken by the Others, the only ones we have seen were Cindy, Zack and Emma and they have been protected by The Others.

Even more relevant, had they any need to protect them from the Smoke Monster? Something that always bugged me and perhaps you can suggest a theory for this - how and why was Ben able to "summon" the Smoke Monster in "The Shape of Things to Come"?***

The only thing I can think was that it benefitted Smokey to protect Ben and Locke, in order to fulfill his plan to take over Locke's body and get Ben to kill Jacob. How Ben knew how to do it, how Smokey knew what was happening, I don't know.

Point being, why would they need to protect them from something they had at least some element of control over at the time?

I don't think they had any control over it. I just think they had some way of communicating with it. In 'Dead is Dead', after pulling the plug or whatever, Ben simply says "I'll be outside". Later, he literally tells Sun "...what's about to come out of that jungle is something I can't control."

IMO your theory is all retrospective or retroactively thought out. i.e. fitting a theory now to try make sense of something that happened in earlier seasons. Its nonsensical in a linear fashion as the show developed.

I admit, in Season 2, I wasn't thinking to myself "Maybe they're kidnapping those people because they are no longer candidates in order to protect them from John Locke". As each episode passes, more information is given to try and figure out some of the many theories about the show. I'm definitely not saying my theory is brilliant, in fact I pointed out a flaw or sticking point in my own theory. But that's all it is, a theory. To be honest though I still think that some elements of it may be true, otherwise I wouldn't have bothered posting it.

*** - Smoke Monster summoned by Ben and proceeded to attack only Keamys group. Which at the time indicated that Ben and the Others had some element of control over it.

As I said, it seems like they knew how to communicate with it or summon it, but not control it. Hence the Sonic Fence and ash around the Temple

Look, my whole theory might be blown out of the water in the next episode, or might never be answered at all. Just a theory though, and to be honest, I don't feel like anything you've said has disproved it.

dudeitshurley

paddyirishman85 wrote: »

Look, my whole theory might be blown out of the water in the next episode, or might never be answered at all. Just a theory though, and to be honest, I don't feel like anything you've said has disproved it.

im all for theories provides some decent talking points!!

I don't think i've disproved anything and as far as im concerned all theories at this point remain valid until we see what actually goes down!!!

I wonder who decides when someone is no longer a candidate? One would assume Jacob not MIB? I'm just trying to reconcile Smokey scanning people to decide if they are a 'candidate' then being able to kill them if he decides they are in fact no longer a candidate. And by extension why hasn't he wiped out every non-candidate remaining on the Island? If Eko was a candidate, scanned, revealed not to be suitable, then killed,...why not just wipe out everyone bar the 6 remaining? And if he can't kill candidates full stop then how did he kill Eko?

Penn

dudeitshurley wrote: »

im all for theories provides some decent talking points!!

I don't think i've disproved anything and as far as im concerned all theories at this point remain valid until we see what actually goes down!!!

I wonder who decides when someone is no longer a candidate? One would assume Jacob not MIB? I'm just trying to reconcile Smokey scanning people to decide if they are a 'candidate' then being able to kill them if he decides they are in fact no longer a candidate. And by extension why hasn't he wiped out every non-candidate remaining on the Island? If Eko was a candidate, scanned, revealed not to be suitable, then killed,...why not just wipe out everyone bar the 6 remaining? And if he can't kill candidates full stop then how did he kill Eko?

Thats the thing about Eko not repenting, I think it meant he could no longer be a candidate. I think it may have been some sort of test for him.

As for who decides if they are no longer a candidate, or how MIB knows if someone is no longer a candidate, I have no idea. I assume it is something that they both just... know. Lets face it, it wouldn't be the strangest thing they've been able to do

damnyanks

Also wasn't the smoke monster held up in the shack (Which was meant to be jacob) witht he salt that hurley broke though?

Psychedelic

dudeitshurley wrote: »

Correct me if i'm wrong but wasn't the secret room pretty old looking? i.e. predating the Sonic Fences? the Sonic Fences can only have been a relatively recent thing in the scheme of the island. Also, as i said above even if Ben has no control over what MIB does when he "summoned" him what exactly did he expect? Random carnage?!

It seems like the Dharma houses were just built over this pool in the ground thing that Ben pulls the plug on. Were the sonic fenses put up before or after the Dharma houses were built? Now I'm wondering about why Dharma ever built over it in the first place, and designed a little secret entrance to it. Need to think about this further...

To answer your question, yeah that's exactly it, Ben 'summoned' the smoke monster and hoped it would cause carnage but he really had no idea what would happen. He was just hoping the smoke monster would do something that would allow him to escape from Keamy. And we also know now that Ben doesn't really much about smokey and the island in general.

dudeitshurley wrote: »

Also, why would the Losties have to run and hide from it? If they were candidates at the time then Smokey couldn't have harmed them. And if they weren't well then they should have been in The Temple protected by The Others. Nah this theory holds no water for me but i do hope they present SOME sort of plausible explanation, even if it is a an explicitly lame one like the Whispers one.

The Losties run from it because it's the smoke monster! They didn't know that they were canidates and that smokey couldn't harm them.

Penn

damnyanks wrote: »

Also wasn't the smoke monster held up in the shack (Which was meant to be jacob) witht he salt that hurley broke though?

Couldn't have been. Smokey has been on the loose since the first episode. He may have been using the cabin, but I doubt he was trapped there. There may have been another 'break' in the ash circle. We don't even know if when Hurley tripped, he did actually hit the ash circle and break it. There didn't seem to be any dirt on his clothes when he got back up.

Psychedelic

dudeitshurley wrote: »

Correct me if i'm wrong but wasn't the secret room pretty old looking? i.e. predating the Sonic Fences? the Sonic Fences can only have been a relatively recent thing in the scheme of the island. Also, as i said above even if Ben has no control over what MIB does when he "summoned" him what exactly did he expect? Random carnage?!

Just found more on this:

Directly beneath the Barracks exists a large complex of ancient tunnels with hieroglyphics similar to those found within the Temple. Richard Alpert referred to this area as "the tunnels" and this area was used by the Others to store the hydrogen bomb after 1954. The tunnels original purpose is unknown. It is unclear if the DHARMA Initiative was aware that the Barracks were constructed on top of an even older site. The secret chamber in Ben's house is very likely linked to the tunnels.

http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Motor_Pool#Motor_Pool

dudeitshurley

paddyirishman85 wrote: »

Thats the thing about Eko not repenting, I think it meant he could no longer be a candidate. I think it may have been some sort of test for him.

As for who decides if they are no longer a candidate, or how MIB knows if someone is no longer a candidate, I have no idea. I assume it is something that they both just... know. Lets face it, it wouldn't be the strangest thing they've been able to do

UNLESS....

ok lol time for myself to put forward a theory! (Ducks for Cover!!)

Right what about something like this: MIB said to Jacob that it always ends the same. So, what about something like this: Jacob brings people to the island to find a worthy candidate to assume his role. Both MIB and Jacob have the ability to judge candidates. Neither can kill candidates but both can judge them. Perhaps it's not as simple as being a candidate to replace Jacob, perhaps there's some element of replacing MIB?

So maybe MIB is referring to the fact that all the people he has brought to the island, NONE have been suitable and it always ends the same with them being judged and killed by him? And maybe he's fed up of it! I wouldnt be surprised if when we do get the MIB/Jacob backstory that originally MIB wasnt all bad and maybe the years have soured things for him.

blue_steel

One thing I don't get: Why was the process to find Jacob's replacement going on for decades before he even died? Candidates from as early as 1954 were indicated at the lighthouse.

dudeitshurley

blue_steel wrote: »

One thing I don't get: Why was the process to find Jacob's replacement going on for decades before he even died? Candidates from as early as 1954 were indicated at the lighthouse.

It's been going on for hundreds of years though, Jacob bringing people to the island to see if they are worthy to replace him so he can quit or whatever!!

blue_steel

dudeitshurley wrote: »

It's been going on for hundreds of years though, Jacob bringing people to the island to see if they are worthy to replace him so he can quit or whatever!!

So he knew he was going to die?
Or was he hoping to take early retirement, maybe buy a little place on the beach somewhere and take up weaving....oh wait.

Sad Professor

If you observe the Jacob/MIB relationship in Ab Aerterno there's no mention or suggestion of Jacob assembling candidates or looking for a replacement. At that point it seems they were both primarily concerned with proving the other wrong. So I think the candidate thing started later.

Sad Professor

dudeitshurley wrote: »

And by extension why hasn't he wiped out every non-candidate remaining on the Island? If Eko was a candidate, scanned, revealed not to be suitable, then killed,...why not just wipe out everyone bar the 6 remaining? And if he can't kill candidates full stop then how did he kill Eko?

Well what I suggested earlier was that Eko was never a candidate, which is why the Others tried to take him on the first/second night after the crash.

Psychedelic wrote: »

I was thinking about this the other day and I came up with a theory on how Ben 'summoned' the smoke monster.

The smoke monster can't get into the barracks because of the sonic fenses. But what if there was an undergound tunnel somewhere (see blast door map) which went underneath the sonic fenses, and maybe it came out at a well like the one from Everybody Loves Hugo, or just some other hole in the ground inside the barracks?

Now, let's say this tunnel was filled with water, and when we see Ben drain a pool of water in one of the barracks houses, he somehow drains the tunnel, allowing the smoke monster to travel through it, and thus enter the barracks?

Ben didn't have control of the smoke monster, he merely helped it bypass the sonic fenses to get into the barracks, and then it killed Keamy's men.

It's a really good idea. The only problem with it is that the fence was off on both occasions that Ben called him.

damnyanks wrote: »

Also wasn't the smoke monster held up in the shack (Which was meant to be jacob) witht he salt that hurley broke though?

The cabin and the mysterious figure in it remain a mystery. There's no evidence that Hurley broke the ash circle. It was a pretty thick line of ash, too, kicking through it wouldn't have been enough to break it imo. Of course, we still don't know if the circle was keeping someone in or out.

I still wouldn't rule out the possibility that it was MIB in some way. Consider the following line from Dogen in Sundown: "For years, he has been trapped, but now Jacob is gone, he's free." The idea that Jacob was living there makes no sense imo - why would he need protection from MIB?

dudeitshurley wrote: »

Right what about something like this: MIB said to Jacob that it always ends the same. So, what about something like this: Jacob brings people to the island to find a worthy candidate to assume his role. Both MIB and Jacob have the ability to judge candidates. Neither can kill candidates but both can judge them. Perhaps it's not as simple as being a candidate to replace Jacob, perhaps there's some element of replacing MIB?

So maybe MIB is referring to the fact that all the people he has brought to the island, NONE have been suitable and it always ends the same with them being judged and killed by him? And maybe he's fed up of it! I wouldnt be surprised if when we do get the MIB/Jacob backstory that originally MIB wasnt all bad and maybe the years have soured things for him.

I think the Jacob/MIB conflict was best summed up in Ab Aeterno:

"That man who sent you to kill me believes that everyone is corruptable because it's in their very nature to sin. I bring people here to prove him wrong. And when they get here, their past doesn't matter."
I think this is the gist of the Jacob/MIB conflict. I had a previous post in which I compared their conflict to God and Satan in the garden of Eden.

Psychedelic

Sad Professor wrote: »

If you observe the Jacob/MIB relationship in Ab Aerterno there's no mention or suggestion of Jacob assembling candidates or looking for a replacement.

There is a mention of a replacement for Jacob. In their conversation at the end, Jacob says "somebody else will take my place" to which MIB replies "well, then I'll kill them too".

uncleoswald

dudeitshurley wrote: »

If Eko was a candidate, scanned, revealed not to be suitable, then killed,...why not just wipe out everyone bar the 6 remaining? And if he can't kill candidates full stop then how did he kill Eko?

My impression is that Eko was not been scanned to find out if he was a candidate but instead was been tested for his suitability for manipulation into one of the roles that were eventually taken by Ben and Locke. Like Ben he was asked to repent for his sins by the person he loved but unlike Ben he refused, for whatever reason this meant he was no longer able to be the one to kill Jacob. Or else he was meant to be the one who returned as MiB. Like Locke, Eko's faith meant he could be easily led but Locke had a decent/weak nature that made him more suitable.

Well thats the only way I can make sense of it.