The Riot Tapes - Not If But When (feedback please)

MilanPan!c

Hey guys,

I have another VERY rough demo up.

Things to note:

Vox are rough
Some vox are missing
Drums are completely rough (a loop even)
It's unmixed
It's obviously not mastered
It was recorded, as you all now realise, in my kitchen

What I would really love is some feedback!

I know ^^^ it's early days with this song, but feedback at this point is probably more useful than feedback after I'm HAPPY with it. If you get my point.

I'm not thin skinned; go nuts.

Of course, gushing praise is always welcome, though certainly not expected at this early stage!

Thanks in advance to anyone that bothers to even listen. Double thanks if you bother to respond.

And good luck..... to me.

The link:

http://soundcloud.com/the-riot-tapes/nibw-rough-vox-temp-drums-unmixed

BTW: This vers will only be up briefly (2 days max). Drums are being attacked on Sun as are vox. I'll put a newer version up sometime next week.

PMI

I did an A&R on it but only got to 47 seconds and moved on

Ive heard worse guitar sounds to be honest on albums already out there so was slighly impressed for where you did them (tonality wise), BUT tuning is miles off on one of them/poss both?!? hard to capture everything in 47 seconds.

As you said drums are no where in sight, as is bass so wont go into them, vocals are very in the back ground/hissy/sibilant/mid scooped and not in your face.

Dont know how much info you want here?!? as for the song it didnt capture me in the 1st few secs so unfortunatly at my age I dont continue listening

Tell ya what though, your some bloke for putting up stuff, you def get a thumbs up in my book, even some of the bigger boys on here are scared of doing that

Pat on the back

MilanPan!c

PMI wrote: »

I did an A&R on it but only got to 47 seconds and moved on

Ive heard worse guitar sounds to be honest on albums already out there so was slighly impressed for where you did them (tonality wise), BUT tuning is miles off on one of them/poss both?!? hard to capture everything in 47 seconds.

As you said drums are no where in sight, as is bass so wont go into them, vocals are very in the back ground/hissy/sibilant/mid scooped and not in your face.

Dont know how much info you want here?!? as for the song it didnt capture me in the 1st few secs so unfortunatly at my age I dont continue listening

Tell ya what though, your some bloke for putting up stuff, you def get a thumbs up in my book, even some of the bigger boys on here are scared of doing that

Pat on the back

Hey man..

thanks for the feedback...

yeah totally aware of those guitar issues...

still very rough, but I'm glad you at least like my attitude. :P

And yeah, you know, I'm not scared of putting stuff up... totally looking for feedback so that I can MAKE IT BETTER!

Not worried about negativity either!

As for vox, those were more guide vox than finished (in fact only one verse recorded) just trying to get a feel and make sure I was happy that the idea was coming out the way I intended.

Thanks again!

And btw - there's much more completed songs on our myspace - myspace.com/theriottapes

you might like them better... then again....



:P

seannash

have to say this.

any feedback that will be given to you is ultimately going to generate the same response from you

"yeah i hear ya about xyz,its just a rough version.ill fix that later"

not to sound cruel but how can people critique something that isnt finished or even close to it.

MilanPan!c

seannash wrote: »

have to say this.

any feedback that will be given to you is ultimately going to generate the same response from you

"yeah i hear ya about xyz,its just a rough version.ill fix that later"

not to sound cruel but how can people critique something that isnt finished or even close to it.

You're not being cruel, but I do disagree.

I have done this now for three songs and get good feedback everytime.

Anything honest that people say is beneficial to me.

That's just how I work, at least with this project.

Thanks for replying!

seannash

MilanPan!c wrote: »

Hey man..

thanks for the feedback...

yeah totally aware of those guitar issues...

still very rough,



As for vox, those were more guide vox than finished (in fact only one verse recorded) just trying to get a feel and make sure I was happy that the idea was coming out the way I intended.

it just seems like you know about all the issues that will be raised already.

if your aware the guitars are out of tune why didnt you fix it.
if the vox is just a guide why didnt you wait til you had the full vox done before posting up

if its helping you cool but its making no sense to me asking for feedback on a tune were the issues that need fixing are totally aware to the person who made it.

better idea would be to make the song to the best of your ability then, if you were having trouble with the vox for example after youve done everything you could think of to fix it,coming on here and asking for ways to improve it.
then at least people could offer you advice on techniques that will improve your mix

MilanPan!c

seannash wrote: »

it just seems like you know about all the issues that will be raised already.

if your aware the guitars are out of tune why didnt you fix it.
if the vox is just a guide why didnt you wait til you had the full vox done before posting up

if its helping you cool but its making no sense to me asking for feedback on a tune were the issues that need fixing are totally aware to the person who made it.

better idea would be to make the song to the best of your ability then, if you were having trouble with the vox for example after youve done everything you could think of to fix it,coming on here and asking for ways to improve it.
then at least people could offer you advice on techniques that will improve your mix

umm, well, if you insist that I respond to you:

this wasn't a post about "advice on a mix". But instead a general request for feedback on anything people heard that the like or hate.

I can understand that it confuses you, my approach. Sorry for that.

I get a lot of responses from people when I ask for feedback and there's usually some really good nuggets in there that aren't necessarily related to mix... I posted it in here, because engineers an producers here a LOT of music and are OFTEN asked for opinions o songs that have NOTHING to do with mix.

Is that clear??

I appreciate what your saying and believe me when I say I'll post a much better ver of this tune as it evolves.

I find getting feedback from strangers at all points to be very enlightening and beneficial.

If you'd prefer to not comment on the song until after I have created a more complete ver, that's totally cool.

Trust me though, this helps me and sone peope enjoy listening and feeding back.

Btw: not trying to be confrontational at all! If this came across as contrary, I apologise; stupid Internet.

seannash

fair enough.

look i dont want to force the issue but if your not asking for advice on the mix it seems like you want people to tell you how to write the song or what direction to take it.

anyway good luck with it,as long as what your doing is beneficial to you then thats all that matter.even if i dont understand it:D

MilanPan!c

seannash wrote: »

fair enough.

look i dont want to force the issue but if your not asking for advice on the mix it seems like you want people to tell you how to write the song or what direction to take it.

anyway good luck with it,as long as what your doing is beneficial to you then thats all that matter.even if i dont understand it:D

At this point, all I'm looking for is opinions.



someone told me via PM (how most people feedback it seems) that the song was too long... This is something I've wondered about and hearing it from a stranger makes we think I should look at this more closely.

I'm really just looking for opinions.

So....

Thanks for yours!

MilanPan!c

Hey Sean, I just upped a new mix and am dedicating it to you!

(It was first called the Sean Nash Mix, then the Gnasher mix, then the Knasher Mix, then the Broken Teeth Mix - - It just sounded cooler... I in no way want your teeth to get broken or plan on breaking or encouraging someone else to break your teeth... in fact, LEAVE SEAN'S TEETH ALONE)

Sooooo, please feedback on the song... or the mix...



http://soundcloud.com/the-riot-tapes/not-if-but-when-broken-teeth-mix

krd

You could push up the vocals and make them sound more crispy.

What you could do, is take the vocal track you have and go through it with the pencil tool making it pop out.

The vocals are good but the need to be brought out more.

I don't like that lyric "your lies are beginning to lie"

But the vocals should stand out where they should. Remember it's a song - you should really hear the singer - re record the vocals. She's got a good voice - the song should be built around her voice.


I like it, it's got a Stranglers with a girl singer vibe going on - drop all the indie **** bits - the second Middle 8 has to go. Get rid of all that echoy rubbish - It should be something like 14 year-old teenage girls pissed on cider in ill fitting training bras can jump around a room to.

MilanPan!c

krd wrote: »

You could push up the vocals and make them sound more crispy.

What you could do, is take the vocal track you have and go through it with the pencil tool making it pop out.

The vocals are good but the need to be brought out more.

I don't like that lyric "your lies are beginning to lie"

But the vocals should stand out where they should. Remember it's a song - you should really hear the singer - re record the vocals. She's got a good voice - the song should be built around her voice.


I like it, it's got a Stranglers with a girl singer vibe going on - drop all the indie **** bits - the second Middle 8 has to go. Get rid of all that echoy rubbish - It should be something like 14 year-old teenage girls pissed on cider in ill fitting training bras can jump around a room to.

hey this is all great... I just finished a mix sans that second middle 8 then read this... Funny

the lyric is actually EYES are beginning... It's an issue with our vocals not overlapping right... On the list to be fixed. Very annoying.

Which echoy rubbish??? There's a lot of echoy stuff :P

this is exactly perfect feedback!

You've just earned a spot on my list of people to be listened to.

Btw., the vox will be completely redone, these were roughshod for me to work with. First takes, you know....

Not looking for a band are you?

PMI

Hey bud good work to keep ploughin away....

So gave it 46 seconds this time

To me it miles of, nothing seems to be sitting right... the vocals have no real clarity so lyrics "unless you wrote them and heard it 1000 times while mixing" you wouldn't know what they are.

Drums are very bland with no impact its all very "DEMO" and as that word is very 1994 (ie: finished articles only now) its worth another few go's if you like it.

For me up to the 46 second marker reminded me of hey I wrote a song arnt I cool I should record that.... maybe song 193 that you wrote that month is the one to record.

Keep at it bud, just make sure you keep it fun for yourself to keep asking us on here prob isnt best until you are happy with a mix, and if your happy with the mixes so far then I would go on that knitting course ha (bit of banter)

MilanPan!c

PMI wrote: »

Hey bud good work to keep ploughin away....

So gave it 46 seconds this time

To me it miles of, nothing seems to be sitting right... the vocals have no real clarity so lyrics "unless you wrote them and heard it 1000 times while mixing" you wouldn't know what they are.

Drums are very bland with no impact its all very "DEMO" and as that word is very 1994 (ie: finished articles only now) its worth another few go's if you like it.

For me up to the 46 second marker reminded me of hey I wrote a song arnt I cool I should record that.... maybe song 193 that you wrote that month is the one to record.

Keep at it bud, just make sure you keep it fun for yourself to keep asking us on here prob isnt best until you are happy with a mix, and if your happy with the mixes so far then I would go on that knitting course ha (bit of banter)

Thanks for the feedback! I appreciate the honesty!

I feel like I just need to keep cranking them out and the quality stuff will emerge.

I only found the singer in Jan and this is just the third song, but give it a few more months/songs and some excellent stuff should emerge...I hope.



thanks again!

krd

Milan, I really like it. I've listened to it a few times and would love to hear the final piece.

You should listen to some Stranglers and some 70s stuff.

I have an image in my head of that girl in a band, angry, playing in some pub in 1979 or 78. I love that ropey punky bass against her voice. I have such a vivid image of it - it's a Saturday morning, in the back of some pub in Camden, and she's got Kohl rimmed eyes and they're playing their hearts out. And the bass player's got a black T-shirt on, cut-off at the shoulders to make him look muscley , and he's hitting the note really hard - and they're like a gang of outlaws.

But

Do we really need to hear another indie two note guitar "solo"?


Let's make two note indie guitar solos history.

MilanPan!c

krd wrote: »

Milan, I really like it. I've listened to it a few times and would love to hear the final piece.

You should listen to some Stranglers and some 70s stuff.

I have an image in my head of that girl in a band, angry, playing in some pub in 1979 or 78. I love that ropey punky bass against her voice. I have such a vivid image of it - it's a Saturday morning, in the back of some pub in Camden, and she's got Kohl rimmed eyes and they're playing their hearts out. And the bass player's got a black T-shirt on, cut-off at the shoulders to make him look muscley , and he's hitting the note really hard - and they're like a gang of outlaws.

But

Do we really need to hear another indie two note guitar "solo"?


Let's make two note indie guitar solos history.

Awwww thanks so much... That's super cool! I may steal that description... If you don't mind.... I love late 70s stuff especially Wire and the Adverts.

I should listen to the stranglers again I guess... Recommend me something. Not the raven.


and 2 note solo????do you mean before the chorus??

I took out the second one already...


Is that what you mean??

Rockshamrover

I like this tune or what it can become.

It's not the finished product production wise but imagine how it would sound if a professional producer got to play with it for a while. Lots of potential.


I get a cross between the Stranglers and Fine Young Cannibals.

MilanPan!c

Rockshamrover wrote: »

I like this tune or what it can become.

It's not the finished product production wise but imagine how it would sound if a professional producer got to play with it for a while. Lots of potential.


I get a cross between the Stranglers and Fine Young Cannibals.

Thanks man! That's my whole thing: demos to get into a studios to record better demos to get into a better studio, ad nauseum.

These are quickish sketches that demonstrate what I WANT to do.

Thanks again man!

I need to buy a bunch of you guys pints.

Aridstarling

Ok, all the guys have made vaild points. I'm going to approach this from a very different place altogether though, because I'm just a contrary kind of person. As I said about your last song, its not something I'd listen to personally but maybe that kind of viewpoint might be of interest to you.

I don't know a whole lot about the stranglers really but I'm heavily interested in post-punk and the like and, if it were me involved in producing this (and being me I wouldn't be overly concerned with "pop sensibility"), I'd push it all the way out there. The verses are begging to be buried under that bass line. Really staccato motorik drums. Feedbacky guitars. If you could still work in the change to that super sweet chorus you might have an interesting dichotomy going on, very difficult to manage though.

That little post chorus piano thing I'd drop, a little nonsensical in context. You might cover it in something noisy (if you followed me on the rest of the track), putting light and dark together to see who wins, obviously the chorus does eventually, its a chorus for god's sake!

Same with that pad sound thing in the part before the last chorus, just a little "ooh, what a cool sound, lets get some of that in there."

Anyway, thats just my outsider's view on this. I've just come home from a Wooden Shjips gig so my reaction may be a little influenced by the krautrock Frisco vibes I heard there!

Oh, and I'll have a pint of the black stuff if you're buying...;)

MilanPan!c

Aridstarling wrote: »

Ok, all the guys have made vaild points. I'm going to approach this from a very different place altogether though, because I'm just a contrary kind of person. As I said about your last song, its not something I'd listen to personally but maybe that kind of viewpoint might be of interest to you.

I don't know a whole lot about the stranglers really but I'm heavily interested in post-punk and the like and, if it were me involved in producing this (and being me I wouldn't be overly concerned with "pop sensibility"), I'd push it all the way out there. The verses are begging to be buried under that bass line. Really staccato motorik drums. Feedbacky guitars. If you could still work in the change to that super sweet chorus you might have an interesting dichotomy going on, very difficult to manage though.

That little post chorus piano thing I'd drop, a little nonsensical in context. You might cover it in something noisy (if you followed me on the rest of the track), putting light and dark together to see who wins, obviously the chorus does eventually, its a chorus for god's sake!

Same with that pad sound thing in the part before the last chorus, just a little "ooh, what a cool sound, lets get some of that in there."

Anyway, thats just my outsider's view on this. I've just come home from a Wooden Shjips gig so my reaction may be a little influenced by the krautrock Frisco vibes I heard there!

Oh, and I'll have a pint of the black stuff if you're buying...;)

Thanks man! I'll read that again when I'm a bit more concious, but def dome interesting ideas.

I'm def least happy with the electronicy bit... The idea would be to expand that all over the place live, so it's a bit of a reference really to a larger concept.

Hmmmm... Hmmmmm.... Def need to think about all if this.


I hope sean reads all of this stuff and understands that this kind of feedback is the 'why' behind the post.

Thanks man!

How was the show?

Aridstarling

In a word: groovy.

Check them out: Myspace

Perfect for falling asleep to. In the words of Mark E. Smith, "Repetition, repetition, repetition."

MilanPan!c

Aridstarling wrote: »

In a word: groovy.

Check them out: Myspace

Perfect for falling asleep to. In the words of Mark E. Smith, "Repetition, repetition, repetition."

Sweet...

Yeah, I'd heard a record of theirs a while ago... need to try again with them.

And btw...


There's a new mix up!

http://soundcloud.com/the-riot-tapes/nibw-fabatoir-mix


When I finally get into a studio with one of those square box things that make guitars louder... a... umm... guitar amp! that's it... I'll seriously consider putting some feedback on this stuff....

About the new mix... slightly better mixed and shorter (see ya in hell 2nd middle 8...)

that delay thing with the vox (where the m-8 used to be) is just a temp thing... when we record actual vox the space will have vox over it...

that's the plan anyway!

Thanks again for all the feedback folks!

And one more BTW - we were mentioned (god knows how this happened) in the Irish Times today:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/theticket/2010/0416/1224268431516.html

Yay!

shayleon

Very catchy stuff! First i thought 'it's a ripoff' then remembered that i heard your earlier version a couple of days ago.

I think it's a good work for this genre, though like yourself, I prefer Beethoven to catchy pop/rock.

All the best.
S.

MilanPan!c

shayleon wrote: »

Very catchy stuff! First i thought 'it's a ripoff' then remembered that i heard your earlier version a couple of days ago.

I think it's a good work for this genre, though like yourself, I prefer Beethoven to catchy pop/rock.

All the best.
S.

Thanks man!

If you haven't heard Furtwangler's Beethoven 9 or his Shostakovich 5, track them down.

Both are fantastic!

NiallMH

You didnt wait to put up the real thing because your afraid the real thing will be judged , because now u have an exuce for a bad sound , just an observation.

judas101

Ive been reading your posts for a while now and Ive come to expect to be blown away by you songs.

You often mention label interest and 'having a record everywhere by fall'

You talk the talk but do not walk the walk.
Although the guitar sound is nice, the tuning is way off.

Vox are all over the place.
Lyrics are unimaginiteve and repeditive.

Youre the first one the critique the efforts of others. If you fancy yourself as the new resident expert songsmith on boards I suggest you back it up with something of higher quality than this.

Constructive critisism: I agree with the view of a couple of the posters above. Why post something under your name thats not the finished article?
Why put this very rough, **** sounding demo out there now? People who hear it will immediately write you off.
You have one chance to make a first impression and you blew it.


Eagerly awaiting your next effort. So far youre all talk, no substance.

MilanPan!c

judas101 wrote: »

Ive been reading your posts for a while now and Ive come to expect to be blown away by you songs.

You often mention label interest and 'having a record everywhere by fall'

You talk the talk but do not walk the walk.
Although the guitar sound is nice, the tuning is way off.

Vox are all over the place.
Lyrics are unimaginiteve and repeditive.

Youre the first one the critique the efforts of others. If you fancy yourself as the new resident expert songsmith on boards I suggest you back it up with something of higher quality than this.

Constructive critisism: I agree with the view of a couple of the posters above. Why post something under your name thats not the finished article?
Why put this very rough, **** sounding demo out there now? People who hear it will immediately write you off.
You have one chance to make a first impression and you blew it.


Eagerly awaiting your next effort. So far youre all talk, no substance.

Thanks for eagerly awaiting my next tune.

In my defense:

the lyrics are repetitive because it's just one iteration repeated, as a guide.

The vox aren't great because they're first takes and only used as a guide.

Like I said (repeatedly) to Sean, the reason I put up something this early is becuase I really benefit from the constructive criticism I get.

And there's plenty here, and sent via PM and sen through SoundCloud.

So it may not make sense to you, but it's what Ive been doing for this entire project and this process produced the other two songs which you seemed to like.

I think rockshamrover summed up my own opinion pretty perfectly when he said he hears a lot of potential and is excited to hear the finished product; me to!

To sum up: I see no downside to doing this and it's upside is wildly benefecial to me.

And don't worry, the finished article will be a LOT better. And hey, even I you don't eer love it, maybe you'll be back on my side with song 4... It's a doozy!

Thanks for the feedback and I hope this clears up the situation and my motivation a bit.

Cheers man!

MilanPan!c

NiallMH wrote: »

You didnt wait to put up the real thing because your afraid the real thing will be judged , because now u have an exuce for a bad sound , just an observation.

Welcome to the way I work.

What you will find, if you pay attention for a while, is that I always share rough drafts to get feedback at a point where I can actually implement meaningful changes.

As the song evolves, I post newer versions to both show the process to the interested parties and to continue to get feedback.

I ALWAYS post the finished versions of my material though; please feel free to come and trash that. It will be clearly labelled.

Thanks for listening. Hope this makes it clear how my process works and that you're baseless assertion doesn't reflect my process.

To hear the final version (give it a few weeks I'm sure) just keep check back in this thread.

PMI

Ive kinda lost the way in this post, I was helping on mix etc.... now we're getting multiple (rough) mixes?

Do me one favour, put up what you think is your best song, arrangement and mix so far and Im up for giving my 2p on that

i57dwun4yb1pt8

i agree with PMI and Sean - the tune is interesting , as were your other tunes but if you keep posting iteration after iteration people will soon tire of you .

im in the middle if recording my first bunch of tracks at home and havent posted a single thing here yet - and I wont until they are very very close to finished.

( I did post drum experiments for a while , but I gave up on home drum recording in favour of sample based playing )

then I will put them up to be clay pigeoned - because i will hopefully learn more from one big blast than endless updates.

and this is a production forum, so people want to hear finished or very close to finished productions

if you are recording , without knowing the basics - and posting the iterations as you change stuff - you are basically asking people here to write and produce your tracks for you-

its taken me over two years to learn the ins and outs of recording and production to get to the stage where im recording to what to me sounds like a reasonable standard of quailty

and its taken me a further year to write and record all the tunes with this experience in hand.

they will be up in the summer , and hopefully they will be interesting enough to comment on.

you sound creative - but do it yourself and dont rely on us to assist your creation - lets hear the finished work instead - im sure its bound to be interesting given what youve done so far.

NiallMH

I listened to the fabatoir remixes because the original ones wont work on mine , I like the tune but i think it needs a lot more sound ( Bass , Guitar , Maybe brass , and lots of vocal tracks) I think that would improve it alot

MilanPan!c

NiallMH wrote: »

I listened to the fabatoir remixes because the original ones wont work on mine , I like the tune but i think it needs a lot more sound ( Bass , Guitar , Maybe brass , and lots of vocal tracks) I think that would improve it alot

Thanks!

I think I agree!

My recording got sidetracked this weekend, so I'll be doing more on Tuesday, which will be put on my soundcloud.

Please check back and let me know what you think!

I appreciate the feedback!

MilanPan!c

krd wrote: »

I have an image in my head of that girl in a band, angry, playing in some pub in 1979 or 78. I love that ropey punky bass against her voice. I have such a vivid image of it - it's a Saturday morning, in the back of some pub in Camden, and she's got Kohl rimmed eyes and they're playing their hearts out. And the bass player's got a black T-shirt on, cut-off at the shoulders to make him look muscley , and he's hitting the note really hard - and they're like a gang of outlaws.

Hey KRD, as threatened, I used your description (so far, only on soundcloud, but we'll see).
http://soundcloud.com/the-riot-tapes/nibw-fabatoir-mix

If you want me to take it down, let me know, but I really love it.

MilanPan!c

http://soundcloud.com/the-riot-tapes/nibw-proof-of-concept-mix


I added some guitar... anyone have strong feelings?

About to take this into a studio and am trying a few different ideas...

I personally think this works well enough (though I'd have to make it a bit better obviously), but am curious if this ruins the song for anyone.

---

We're recording this weekend and then the weekend after next... every other weekend from now until I have the label ****e sorted essentially.

Hopefully not much longer now.

As soon as that happens, you'll never hear from me again!!!




:P