Players not returning cards

Mister Sifter

If there's one thing that gets my goat about club golfers, it's the non-return of cards in competions.

I don't really understand it. They sign in for a competition, play the full 18 holes, but then don't return the card. What's the point considering they're already going to get 0.1 back. All they are doing is mucking up the CSS for everyone else who played on the day. Is it purely an ego thing whereby people don't want others to see their bad score?

The last competition i played there were almost 100 people signed into the comp, yet there were only just over 80 who returned cards.

Anyway, how does your club deal with it? Personally i'd like to see anybody caught doing it twice within one season being banned from club competitions for a period of time.

ozymandias10

non return of a card in our club means being cut by .1. differs for low handicappers who are trying to bring their handicap down for scratch cups

IITYWYBMAD

Every N.R. is named and shamed in our place. A notice is put up in the changing room after every comp. Two strikes, and you get banned from comps for a month.

L.O.F.T

Mister Sifter wrote: »

If there's one thing that gets my goat about club golfers, it's the non-return of cards in competions.

I don't really understand it. They sign in for a competition, play the full 18 holes, but then don't return the card. What's the point considering they're already going to get 0.1 back. All they are doing is mucking up the CSS for everyone else who played on the day. Is it purely an ego thing whereby people don't want others to see their bad score?

The last competition i played there were almost 100 people signed into the comp, yet there were only just over 80 who returned cards.

Anyway, how does your club deal with it? Personally i'd like to see anybody caught doing it twice within one season being banned from club competitions for a period of time.

At my club if you don’t return 3 cards having entered a particular comp you are suspended for a period of time. It has not come recently up so I don’t have the exact info at hand but for the very reasons that you have highlighted above my club takes non returns seriously and players are expected to complete their process by entering their card when finished their round. I also agree it’s an ego thing but also think that those at fault on a regular basis are looking for handy +0.1 back to mind their handicap for upcoming competitions.

kagni

I think a lot of the problem is because people don't understand the implications of not handing in their card. When I started golfing I had no clue about it.

The GUI should introduce a program where all club members should have to attend a training class that explains the basics of the rules, etiquette and how scoring and handicaps are calculated. Once existing members have done this, it would only need to be run for new members. It only needs to last a couple of hours and could be done in the clubhouse. It's a joke that a sport with as many intricacies as golf allows people with no clue what they are doing to compete in competitions and make decisions on how the rules apply to their game.

Russman

IITYWYBMAD wrote: »

Every N.R. is named and shamed in our place. A notice is put up in the changing room after every comp. Two strikes, and you get banned from comps for a month.

I think this is the best policy to have. I've been on the competitions committee in our place in the past and the consistent offenders were, by and large, the lower handicap players. We've probably all gone home at some stage and found a card in our pocket that we forgot to enter, but the repeat offenders should be sanctioned in some way IMO.
Not only are they fooling themselves by having handicaps they can't play too, but also effecting other players through the CSS being distorted.
I'm category one myself and always return cards, and can remember a number of occassions over the years getting 0.1 back for 36pts !! which i wasn't best pleased about

charlieIRL

kagni wrote: »

I think a lot of the problem is because people don't understand the implications of not handing in their card. When I started golfing I had no clue about it.

The GUI should introduce a program where all club members should have to attend a training class that explains the basics of the rules, etiquette and how scoring and handicaps are calculated. Once existing members have done this, it would only need to be run for new members. It only needs to last a couple of hours and could be done in the clubhouse. It's a joke that a sport with as many intricacies as golf allows people with no clue what they are doing to compete in competitions and make decisions on how the rules apply to their game.

good idea that.

Paulusmaximus

Once a category 1 player tees the ball up on the first tee irrespective of whether he returns his card or not he will be liable for a .1 back. Obviously this is not the case for all categories but maybe it should be looked at. This is probably the main cause of why people are not returning cards is to save themselves a .1

We had a case in our club, not so long ago, where one of the lowest and promising players in the club scratch/1 handicap changed his card by roughly 6-7 shots so that he'd be in the buffer zone and not get a .1 back. he was caught and has been duly suspended. however this begs the question was it the first time this was done and is there other people that do this.

Russman

A good point, hard to imagine its the first and only time this was done, not by the guy in question, but in general.

I don't know why some Cat 1 players can't accept the fact that if they can't play to scratch or 1 or whatever, they shouldn't be off that handicap. If they're good enough they'll lose that 0.1 when they shoot a good round anyway.
Even if its just to get into events, sure all they do is go and miss the cut or shoot millions (or NR ) and possibly take the place of a more deserving player in the field.

I guess it begs the bigger question of what your handicap is supposed to represent....is it your score on a good day or your "average" score ?

Food for thought.....

Curly7

Very good post Mister Sifter, it's something I was only actually discussing on the course last weekend. In my club the competition committee have brought in suspensions and naming and shaming for repeat offenders

G1032

Mister Sifter wrote: »

If there's one thing that gets my goat about club golfers, it's the non-return of cards in competions.

I don't really understand it. They sign in for a competition, play the full 18 holes, but then don't return the card. What's the point considering they're already going to get 0.1 back.

Paulusmaximus wrote: »

Once a category 1 player tees the ball up on the first tee irrespective of whether he returns his card or not he will be liable for a .1 back.

This topic has been discussed on this forum a couple of times before.
They don't automatically get point one back lads. Thats why they don't hand in cards. Not every club requires that you sign into the computer before you play. And if you're not in computer then you're not entered and don't get point one. But if they go and play well then they'll sign in after they play in order to get their prize and get cut.
Cheats is all they are, taking the place of other genuine players in competitions that have a handicap cut off point.
It's also more commom amongst younger under 18 golfers than it is amongst older players............ well i've heard several instances of young lads doing it but not so much the older guys.
I know a player who failed to enter his score and thus avoided a 0.1 26 times over a 2 year period. As i've said before here......... you might as well kick your ball out from under the tree as not return your score.

Russman

ronaldochokes wrote: »

This topic has been discussed on this forum a couple of times before.
They don't automatically get point one back lads. Thats why they don't hand in cards. Not every club requires that you sign into the computer before you play. And if you're not in computer then you're not entered and don't get point one. But if they go and play well then they'll sign in after they play in order to get their prize and get cut.
Cheats is all they are, taking the place of other genuine players in competitions that have a handicap cut off point.
It's also more commom amongst younger under 18 golfers than it is amongst older players............ well i've heard several instances of young lads doing it but not so much the older guys.
I know a player who failed to enter his score and thus avoided a 0.1 26 times over a 2 year period. As i've said before here......... you might as well kick your ball out from under the tree as not return your score.

+1 to all that
Especially the part about the computer and not signing in - thats exactly how it happens in my club, pay your fee in the pro shop and the computer is out in the hallway.

dvemail

Same in my club, you have to sign in , in the pro shop when you pay for the comp, then after round its in the dressing room to enter score.

Mister Sifter

I can remember my club once being able to time people's rounds by checking the time they clocked in, with the time they entered their card. They did it to analyse speed of play.

Surely if they could do that then clubs should be able to identify those who were cheating in the way that Ronaldo Chokes outlines?

dvemail

Mister Sifter wrote: »

I can remember my club once being able to time people's rounds by checking the time they clocked in, with the time they entered their card. They did it to analyse speed of play.

Surely if they could do that then clubs should be able to identify those who were cheating in the way that Ronaldo Chokes outlines?

Thats a good idea but it would be a lot of extra work for the club to have to do. Although they could easily use that method to catch people out as long as the club gets alerted to certain players by another member of the club.

Curly7

Mister Sifter wrote: »

I can remember my club once being able to time people's rounds by checking the time they clocked in, with the time they entered their card. They did it to analyse speed of play.

Surely if they could do that then clubs should be able to identify those who were cheating in the way that Ronaldo Chokes outlines?

They're doing this in my club at the moment trying to clamp down on slow play, not sure how accurate it will be though

Mister Sifter

No, it's not going to be 100% as not everyone signs in or enters their score immediately before going out or straight after coming in.

However, for the purpose of checking whether players are on the fiddle when it comes to not signing in it should be ample.

jimbling

I honestly did not know that there was any issue with not returning a card. Crikeys, this is a wake up call. There's been loads of times I didnt hand it in for no real reason at all... just wasn't in the running. I dont care about adding .1, so thought nothing of it.

Not one person ever said anything to me.... pretty surprising since it has such an effect.

flugel

i dont return cards cause i dont want to get a .1!

i'm off 16, which i dont like to be honest. if i dont return my card i rarely ever get a .1

Never taught of affecting the CSS tho!

L.O.F.T

flugel wrote: »

i dont return cards cause i dont want to get a .1!

i'm off 16, which i dont like to be honest.

What dont you like about being off 16?

MisterAnarchy

ronaldochokes wrote: »

I know a player who failed to enter his score and thus avoided a 0.1 26 times over a 2 year period. As i've said before here......... you might as well kick your ball out from under the tree as not return your score.

Ah now come off it.
If you return a card and it is false then that is cheating and completely unacceptable.
I dont really see the big deal about not handing in your card ,it is making things harder for the golfer themselves as they are not increasing their handicap,hence resulting in a lower chance of winning a prize.
I'd be more worried about the bandits artificially increasing their handicaps with all the 0.1s they get back.

Mister Sifter

MisterAnarchy wrote: »

Ah now come off it.
If you return a card and it is false then that is cheating and completely unacceptable.
I dont really see the big deal about not handing in your card ,it is making things harder for the golfer themselves as they are not increasing their handicap,hence resulting in a lower chance of winning a prize.
I'd be more worried about the bandits artificially increasing their handicaps with all the 0.1s they get back.

Very selfish attitude. As already mentioned, not returning your card impacts on the standard scratch. So everyone else suffers, while you maintain a fake handicap. It's cheating, pure and simple.

stumpypeeps

If you have bandits running up big numbers over the closing holes just to get a 0.1 back and you have guys who are blowing up and not handing in their card perhaps in the end it all balances out.

Ying and Yang etc...;)


Seriously though, if your having an absolute horror show, shanking all over the shop, early in the round, would you be keen for the entrant to continue regardless or quitely leave the course and apologise to his partners?

soundsham

i'm off 16, which i dont like to be honest. if i dont return my card i rarely ever get a .1

eh.....?
are you for real

Russman

Not sure I understand the "if I don't return my i card I rarely ever get a 0.1" ?
I would have thought in any club you either do or you don't get a 0.1 for a non return, surely its not arbitrary ?
I may have picked that up wrong, if I have, apologies. If you don't like being off 16, thats fine, but take your 0.1s, it'll give you a better chance to do a good score off 17 or 18 and get significantly cut later......

With regard to bandits building a handicap, i honestly think the number of "genuine" bandits out there is pretty small, maybe a handful in any club. I think most people who have a bit of a name for it can rarely actually turn it on at will, for, say, a Captains Prize. Only kidding themselves by building a handicap. Thats just from my own observations in my own club, happy to be corrected .

G1032

MisterAnarchy wrote: »

Ah now come off it.
If you return a card and it is false then that is cheating and completely unacceptable.
I dont really see the big deal about not handing in your card ,it is making things harder for the golfer themselves as they are not increasing their handicap,hence resulting in a lower chance of winning a prize.
I'd be more worried about the bandits artificially increasing their handicaps with all the 0.1s they get back.

It's cheating MisterAnarchy and here is why.........
Take as an example the Youths/Boys tournamnets - Connacht Youths, Munster boys etc. There will be a very low cut off point for entry to these tournaments.
Say for arguments sake the cut off point for this years Connacht Boys is 3.1
Every young lad in the country wants to play, but those whose handicaps are 3.2 and higher will miss out.
But there will a guy in the field with an exact handicap of 2.7 and the reason it's 2.7 is because he didn't hand in any card that would have gotten him a 0.1. Lets say he should have had 7 0.1's. His exact handicap should be 3.4. But it's not. It's not. It's 2.7 and he has cheated his way into the tournament by not declaring his 0.1 rounds. The genuine honest golfer off 3.2 then has sit it out.

G1032

flugel wrote: »

i dont return cards cause i dont want to get a .1!

i'm off 16, which i dont like to be honest. if i dont return my card i rarely ever get a .1

Never taught of affecting the CSS tho!

Wheter or not it will affect CSS depends on what handicap category you're in.
Cat 4 has no affect on CSS Cat 4 scores are not used to determine CSS.

Rowley Birkin QC

kagni wrote: »

I think a lot of the problem is because people don't understand the implications of not handing in their card. When I started golfing I had no clue about it.

The GUI should introduce a program where all club members should have to attend a training class that explains the basics of the rules, etiquette and how scoring and handicaps are calculated. Once existing members have done this, it would only need to be run for new members. It only needs to last a couple of hours and could be done in the clubhouse. It's a joke that a sport with as many intricacies as golf allows people with no clue what they are doing to compete in competitions and make decisions on how the rules apply to their game.

Great idea. I've only been playing the game for a year, not a member anywhere yet, but the sheer amount of rules and quirks of etiquette are mind boggling.

Something like the course you describe seems like it should be mandatory for new members in courses.

Fergalian

This is rife in my home club, especially scratch boys, they look the fool when they get hammered in cup matches. I see certain lads of < 3 play up to 3 open singles a week and only see their cards returned for breaking HC scores on rare occasion. Clubs are f&€@ing lazy to enforce this and should be audited. Check the comp pay in, simple as, if you pay in and don't return then .1, if you don't pay in before the round then your late and missed your tee time good luck and FO.

It's sickening that cards are only filled in at the end if goods rounds, they should be named and exchanged on the first tee and scores called every three holes.

Selfish c€&ts who have pre madonnas mentality ruin the game, IMO cheating behavior. I won't represent my club in matches out of principle due to this gangster behavior, I don't want to be pigeon holed with them if I have a melter round and they presume I'm the same breed of low HC nurser.

Fergalian

Fergalian wrote: »

This is rife in my home club, especially scratch boys, they look the fool when they get hammered in cup matches. I see certain lads of < 3 play up to 3 open singles a week and only see their cards returned for breaking HC scores on rare occasion. Clubs are f&€@ing lazy to enforce this and should be audited. Check the comp pay in, simple as, if you pay in and don't return then .1, if you don't pay in before the round then your late and missed your tee time good luck and FO.

It's sickening that cards are only filled in at the end if goods rounds, they should be named and exchanged on the first tee and scores called every three holes.

Selfish c€&ts who have pre madonnas mentality ruin the game, IMO cheating behavior. I won't represent my club in matches out of principle due to this gangster behavior, I don't want to be pigeon holed with them if I have a melter round and they presume I'm the same breed of low HC nurser.

Btw I'm of 12 and have shot sub 80 over 20 times this year but barely moved due to CSS when only 45/120 cards get returned on average. Not helped by bandits off 19 shooting 48pts either so there's c€&ts on either end of the spectrum

PARlance

Fergalian wrote: »

Btw I'm of 12 and have shot sub 80 over 20 times this year but barely moved due to CSS when only 45/120 cards get returned on average. Not helped by bandits off 19 shooting 48pts either so there's c€&ts on either end of the spectrum

Your club sounds nice.... Just over a third of people returning their cards!! Really?
Have never heard of a situation where people only exchange cards at the end.
Is this club in Mexico?

Is it Par 72?
What's the CSS on average?

Senna

I always thought my club gives a .1 back if you don't return a card, but I found out lately they don't, not really sure why.
But they did penalise an old fella 2 full shots for not returning enough cards last year. Fairly tough stance as the fella is NEVER a contender and would never be accused of being a bandit.

slave1

IITYWYBMAD wrote: »

Every N.R. is named and shamed in our place. A notice is put up in the changing room after every comp. Two strikes, and you get banned from comps for a month.

Sounds good, perhaps folk are embarrassed with low scores, a lot of lads will spend time on howdidido looking up other folks scoring so a NR could be a filtering mechanism.

golfwallah

Fergalian wrote: »

Btw I'm of 12 and have shot sub 80 over 20 times this year but barely moved due to CSS when only 45/120 cards get returned on average. Not helped by bandits off 19 shooting 48pts either so there's c€&ts on either end of the spectrum

One of these days your club will be caught out by an audit by the GUI (“The Area Authority” under CONGU Rules) – and have to face the consequences of such blatant disregard of said CONGU rules:
http://www.gui.ie/handicap-manual/congu_2012_correct-pdf.aspx

Our club, along with many others in Dublin and the rest of Leinster has been subject to routine audit by the GUI Leinster Branch on a number of occasions over the past few years. This is not a problem as our handicap secretary and his committee conscientiously apply the rules. I’m not familiar with what happens in other GUI Provinces, though, so there may be longer gaps between audits elsewhere (as it's all down to voluntary effort).

CONGU FAQs state the following as regards player’s responsibilities:
“- You should ensure that all scorecards in Qualifying Competitions whether or not complete with a score for every hole, are returned to the organising committee and computer entries made as required.”
http://www.congu.com/faqs/players_responsibility.pdf

Clause 7.3 of the CONGU Handicapping Manual specifies that every club’s Handicap Committee must “ensure, so far as possible, that all cards taken out in Qualifying Competitions are returned to the Committee including incomplete cards”.

Clause 6.2 specifies that the affiliated club must “Ensure that the spirit and intent of the UHS is properly applied in the club. Failure by a club to comply with this requirement may lead to a Union withdrawing the club’s right to act as a Handicapping Authority .........”