Why can't ye give legal advice here?

userod

I don't need any... I'm just curious...

eagle_&_bear

Firstly, the charter (the standing rules of the forum) says so

Secondly, practitioners can't give advice on forums like this - its an open forum and if we gave advice which was suited to 1 scenario, someone else might think that their case was the same and rely upon it. they might lose a case on that advice and come back and sue the advice giver, the mods and the forum owners itself - so its really protection

Thirdly, before any advice is given, you'd have to meet client and take detailed notes and think about key factors

Fourthly, barristers never take a brief from a client, we must be briefed properly- its our ethical rules

so all about protecting the integrity of the legal institutions and protecting yourself

Hogzy

First thing about giving any legal advice is protecting your own ass, You cant do that on boards as anyone could interpret something in the wrong sense!

eagle_&_bear

Hogzy wrote: »

First thing about giving any legal advice is protecting your own ass, You cant do that on boards as anyone could interpret something in the wrong sense!

absolutely

userod

But is it not just a case of I'll give ya the advice but can't guarantee it's accuracy? Like how to go about fixing your car in the Motors section say for example? Why is it they could tell could tell you how to fix your car in a way that might potentially damage it (not saying they would!!) but people in this forum aren't allowed give advice on what to do when stuck in a legal dilemma. I just thought it was all chit chat here on the entire website and that nothing on the website was that serious or binding.

strik

userod wrote: »

nothing on the website was that serious or binding.

Exactly....

Tom Young

The issue boils down simply to this:

Condition: Dilemma;
Action: Seeks advice randomly.

Condition: Relies on wrong advice to own or company detriment;
Action: Sues or seeks to recover for negligent or incorrect advice.

Tom

Paulw

You also have no way of knowing if a poster here is actually a qualified solicitor/barrister or not.

Fighting Irish

Cos boards.ie is the most PC forum on the internet

Maximilian

The primary reason for the ban is that there is a concern about liability should someone act to their detriment based on faulty advice received here. This is not an online solicitors firm; Boards does not hold a practising certificate nor does it have professional indemnity insurance. Also, under the Solicitors Act it is illegal for an unqualified person to act as a solicitor. I'm sure there are equivalent regulations for barristers.

Secondly,there's an element of it being "for your own good" - people who properly need a solicitor should be encouraged to do so. Much like someone who is sick should see a doctor rather than seek medical advice here.

drkpower

Maximilian wrote: »

The primary reason for the ban (not Kanye, legal advice) is that there is a concern about liability should someone act to their detriment based on faulty advice received here. This is not an online solicitors firm; Boards does not hold a practising certificate nor does it have professional indemnity insurance. Also, under the Solicitors Act it is illegal for an unqualified person to act as a solicitor. I'm sure there are equivalent regulations for barristers.

Secondly,there's an element of it being "for your own good" - people who properly need a solicitor should be encouraged to do so. Much like someone who is sick should see a doctor rather than seek medical advice here.

But noone has answered the very good point raised by userod as to why this forum cannot give advice, when the motors forum does and can give advice. Presumably we cant be certain they are all qualified engineers on there and, if anything, there is far more risk of harm if someone takes poor advice on the motors forum (or incorrectly interprets correct advice) than there is here.

The other point is that, on a practical basis, if you phrase your request for legal advice in a sufficiently abstract/hypothetical manner, it seems you can get all the advice you want;). Its all a bit mad, Ted.

partyguinness

drkpower wrote: »

But noone has answered the very good point raised by userod as to why this forum cannot give advice, when the motors forum does and can give advice. Presumably we cant be certain they are all qualified engineers on there and, if anything, there is far more risk of harm if someone takes poor advice on the motors forum (or incorrectly interprets correct advice) than there is here.

The other point is that, on a practical basis, if you phrase your request for legal advice in a sufficiently abstract/hypothetical manner, it seems you can get all the advice you want;). Its all a bit mad, Ted.

A broken car is far more tangible or opinions on particular types of cars. People who log onto the motor forums are generally looking for advice on their cars before they take it to a garage or trying to get a general idea of a mechanical problem.

When people post questions on a legal forum or seek advice, there is generally another person or legal personality involved.

Dealing with people V. Dealing with cars.

Legal everyday problems are a bit more complicated than "My radiator is busted. Any advice". Cars can be fixed easily.;)..whereas going gung ho into your boss based on wrong legal advice on the website is not so readily fixed.

Tester46

Out of curiosity, there seem to be 2 issues. The first is someone posting to seek legal advice. The second is someone posting legal advice in response to a request e.g. here (not sure if that's the perfect example as post removed now).

Apologies if this has been thrashed out before, but is the difference between "legal advice" and "generic opinion" (generic opinion being allowable) essentially one of generality or anonymity? In other words, is it ok to discuss a legal issue here in the abstract, but it becomes a problem if someone says it actually applies to their circumstances?

Just trying to understand the rules. Perhaps you can point me to the inevitable threads where this has been discussed ad nauseum before

drkpower

partyguinness wrote: »

Dealing with people V. Dealing with cars.

Legal everyday problems are a bit more complicated than "My radiator is busted. Any advice". Cars can be fixed easily.;)..whereas going gung ho into your boss based on wrong legal advice on the website is not so readily fixed.

Im afriad the whole thrust of that post is incorrect. The consequences of a misunderstanding over advice on a car is potentially fatal, far more serious than the typical legal problem.

As for the 'complicated' issue, many would say that the workings of their car is far more complicated than the workings of the law.

So, anyone care to answer why advice on fixing your car can be given, and advice on what to do about a speeding ticket cannot?

partyguinness

Tester46 wrote: »

Out of curiosity, there seem to be 2 issues. The first is someone posting to seek legal advice. The second is someone posting legal advice in response to a request e.g. here (not sure if that's the perfect example as post removed now).

Apologies if this has been thrashed out before, but is the difference between "legal advice" and "generic opinion" (generic opinion being allowable) essentially one of generality or anonymity? In other words, is it ok to discuss a legal issue here in the abstract, but it becomes a problem if someone says it actually applies to their circumstances?

Just trying to understand the rules. Perhaps you can point me to the inevitable threads where this has been discussed ad nauseum before

I am only speaking for myself and not Tom Young or anyone else.

Asking about rules and Court procedures is very different to asking for advice about, say, "I want to contest my father's Will because of X Y and Z....What are my chances of success"

That crosses the line from mere explanation of rules and principals to asking for specialised legal advice and opinions.

As a practising lawyer, I have more than once heard the "Oh my friend said this and that etc etc in the pub last week.." or "Plenty of my friends have done this without any problems blah blah."

Point being...no two situations are the same. Lawyers train for years and years to be able to advise client's. It is not someting that can be just dished out willy nilly on an interent forum.

As the old adage goes..."A little information can be dangerous."

Tom Young

drkpower wrote: »

So, anyone care to answer why advice on fixing your car can be given, and advice on what to do about a speeding ticket cannot?

Yes, seeing as you're not going to let this one go!

It's like this. I am not able to give legal advice as a solicitor or barrister to people I do not know, who may given incorrect information about an issue, e.g., Statute of Limitations, Error on a Summons, Speeding Ticket etc. and rely on the information given incorrectly back to them. With no recourse.

Barristers must give formal legal advice to clients via instructing solicitors. Solicitors can only deal with clients. With the requisite levels of professional indemnity insurance.

Getting, giving and relying on legal advice on an Internet forum is mere folly and to say otherwise in relation to cars, underpants or whatever is complete and utter rubbish.

The rules are the rules and they are there to protect both the practitioner and the advice seeker.

The Internet is not an identity-less place, by merely being on a webpage I can for example get your location within a very close radius. I can see your email addresses and IP data service provider data. If someone was to sue based on duff or wrong advice, they could succeed and also expose a number of flaws in your way of thinking about things.

The amount of times I see people coming on here and asking the same questions about the same issues is almost as frustrating as it is trying to explain the logic of proferring information on something (that's half cocked in its explanation generally) that potentially may be relied upon by someone at a later time to their detriment.

It shouldn't happen. The law concerns itself with almost every single facet of life. Incorrect information is a no no.

Tom

partyguinness

drkpower wrote: »

Im afriad the whole thrust of that post is incorrect. The consequences of a misunderstanding over advice on a car is potentially fatal, far more serious than the typical legal problem.

As for the 'complicated' issue, many would say that the workings of their car is far more complicated than the workings of the law.

So, anyone care to answer why advice on fixing your car can be given, and advice on what to do about a speeding ticket cannot?

You not agreeing with my post does not make incorrect...;)

"Complicated" in the sense that dealing with people is more complicated than dealing with cars..trust me the legal ramifications of being involved in a 3 car pile up on the motorway is far more tricky than a bust radiator or leaking brake fluid...would you not agree?

Plenty of threads have been started here about speeding tickets which have been answered which have outlined the procedures involved.

That is a pretty basic outline on Court procedure (see Post above) as opposed to a complicated and specific question on tax, inheritence issues etc

Tester46

partyguinness wrote: »

I am only speaking for myself and not Tom Young or anyone else.

Asking about rules and Court procedures is very different to asking for advice about, say, "I want to contest my father's Will because of X Y and Z....What are my chances of success"

That crosses the line from mere explanation of rules and principals to asking for specialised legal advice and opinions.

As a practising lawyer, I have more than once heard the "Oh my friend said this and that etc etc in the pub last week.." or "Plenty of my friends have done this without any problems blah blah."

Point being...no two situations are the same. Lawyers train for years and years to be able to advise client's. It is not someting that can be just dished out willy nilly on an interent forum.

As the old adage goes..."A little information can be dangerous."

I appreciate that, and I am not trying to be awkward, but my question is (to paraphrase you):

Is mere explanation of rules and principals in a general anonymous manner acceptable, but explanation of rules and principals in relation to a specific case unacceptable?

In other words, is it acceptable to post a generic, academic discussion about unfair dismissal, but not ok to discuss a poster's actual situation?

I have no issue with this rule, just trying to understand it.

P.S. Can boards.ie not automatically include a 1-liner disclaimer in bold on all posts in this forum making it clear no one should rely on any opinions/"advice"?

drkpower

Tom Young wrote: »

It's like this. I am not able to give legal advice as a solicitor or barrister to people I do not know, who may given incorrect information about an issue, e.g., Statute of Limitations, Error on a Summons, Speeding Ticket etc. and rely on the information given incorrectly back to them. With no recourse.

Barristers must give formal legal advice to clients via instructing solicitors. Solicitors can only deal with clients. With the requisite levels of professional indemnity insurance.

Getting, giving and relying on legal advice on an Internet forum is mere folly and to say otherwise in relation to cars, underpants or whatever is complete and utter rubbish.

Tom, i feel your pain.... But you havent really answered the question. Why can't a solicitor (or a lay person) who posts here give legal advice, while a mechanic (or a lay person) who posts on the motors forum can give advice on how to fix your car?

Whatever about which is more complicated than the other (which is a pointless debate, really), Im sure we can agree that the potential for adverse consequences to pocket, and even life and limb, can potentially exist with both types of advice being wrongly given/construed?

partyguinness

Tester46 wrote: »

I appreciate that, and I am not trying to be awkward, but my question is (to paraphrase you):

Is mere explanation of rules and principals in a general anonymous manner acceptable, but explanation of rules and principals in relation to a specific case unacceptable?

In other words, is it acceptable to post a generic, academic discussion about unfair dismissal, but not ok to discuss a poster's actual situation?

I have no issue with this rule, just trying to understand it.

P.S. Can boards.ie not automatically include a 1-liner disclaimer in bold on all posts in this forum making it clear no one should rely on any opinions/"advice"?

In a word...Yes...but I am not a Mod and not speaking on their behalf was my point about speaking for myself.

Ultimately it is judgement call for the Mod as to whether or not any lines are being crossed.

drkpower

partyguinness wrote: »

You not agreeing with my post does not make incorrect...;)

"Complicated" in the sense that dealing with people is more complicated than dealing with cars..trust me the legal ramifications of being involved in a 3 car pile up on the motorway is far more tricky than a bust radiator or leaking brake fluid...would you not agree?

Plenty of threads have been started here about speeding tickets which have been answered which have outlined the procedures involved.

That is a pretty basic outline on Court procedure (see Post above) as opposed to a complicated and specific question on tax, inheritence issues etc

Some legal issues are straightforward (I bought a mars bar, therefore i have entered a contract, I must now pay consideration). Some motoring problems are extremely complicated (insert complicated car issue here - every motoring issue is complicated to me, tbh). Some legal issues have minor consequences (I failed to pay a fixed penalty speeding ticket - now I have double the points). Some motoring problems have serious consequences (my wheel nuts are loose - oops, my wheel came off when I was going down the motorway @ 120mph - now me and 3 others are dead). And vice versa.

Yet there seems to be a blanket 'no to legal advice' rule and a blanket 'yes to motoring advice' rule. That makes no sense.

partyguinness

drkpower wrote: »

Tom, i feel your pain.... But you havent really answered the question. Why can't a solicitor (or a lay person) who posts here give legal advice, while a mechanic (or a lay person) who posts on the motors forum can give advice on how to fix your car?

Whatever about which is more complicated than the other (which is a pointless debate, really), Im sure we can agree that the potential for adverse consequences to pocket, and even life and limb, can potentially exist with both types of advice being wrongly given/construed?

I post and read quiet a lot on the Motor forum and in fairness, I see very very little (if any) advice from anyone on how to fix a car....usually someone posts about certain noises, leaks etc and other posters give an opinion as to what the matter is.

Another point here....99.9% who write about their car problems will take it the mechanic or have it in the garage already and are just curious as to what the problem could be.

99.9% posters in the legal forum with legal issues do not want to visit a solicitor and are hoping for free legal advice...

Any opinion or advice on the legal forum will be more readily accepted and acted upon in order to avoid paying for a solicitor.

That is just my take on it.:)

And to be honest anyone who thinks motor advice is more complicated than legal advice/siutations is deluded or has a very high opinion of themselves and their mechanical abilities

Are the petrol heads feeling a bit unloved or unapprectiated or taken for granted?

drkpower

partyguinness wrote: »

I post and read quiet a lot on the Motor forum and in fairness, I see very very little (if any) advice from anyone on how to fix a car....usually someone posts about certain noises, leaks etc and other posters give an opinion as to what the matter is.

Whether that is the case or not is irrelevent; what is relevent is whether you are allowed or whether it is prohibited.

partyguinness wrote: »

Another point here....99.9% who write about their car problems will take it the mechanic or have it in the garage already and are just curious as to what the problem could be.

99.9% posters in the legal forum with legal issues do not want to visit a solicitor and are hoping for free legal advice...

Any opinion or advice on the legal forum will be more readily accepted and acted upon in order to avoid paying for a solicitor.

I sincerely doubt all of the above. But, in any case, it is all irrelevent to whether legal advice should be prohibited, and whether motoring advice should be allowed.

partyguinness wrote: »

And to be honest anyone who thinks motor advice is more complicated than legal advice/siutations is deluded or has a very high opinion of themselves and their mechanical abilities
.

I will say this very slowly. Some motoring advice is more complicated than some legal advice.

Tom Young

Ok, this is not really going anywhere.

drkpower

It might do if someone answered the question.....

Why can't a solicitor (or a lay person) who posts here give legal advice, while a mechanic (or a lay person) who posts on the motors forum can give advice on how to fix your car?

Answer: It is in breach of the forum charter - This is a Discussion forum. We do not allow it because people may rely on the advice with no possible way of test the veracity of the information given, in query or the bona fides and knowledge or intent of the respondant to the query. Additionally, legal practitioners who are regulars here may be excluded from giving advice either through employment contract or membership of some profession e.g., Law Library.

Whatever about which is more complicated than the other (which is a pointless debate, really), Im sure we can agree that the potential for adverse consequences to pocket, and even life and limb, can potentially exist with both types of advice being wrongly given/construed?

Answer: Yes. That is why we don't allow it.

Now, I have answered your questions. I await another round of trying to crack a walnut with a sledgehammer.

partyguinness

drkpower wrote: »

Whether that is the case or not is irrelevent; what is relevent is whether you are allowed or whether it is prohibited.



I sincerely doubt all of the above. But, in any case, it is all irrelevent to whether legal advice should be prohibited, and whether motoring advice should be allowed.


I will say this very slowly. Some motoring advice is more complicated than some legal advice.

Your liberal use of the word "irrelevent" pretty much sums up this thread at this point. You are looking for black and white answers in a very grey area.

Take it up with the Motor Mods and see what they say.

Tom Young

I edited your post by accident drkpower. Answers there, to those rhetorical questions.

partyguinness

Tom Young wrote: »

I edited your post by accident drkpower. Answers there, to those rhetorical questions.

Thank God for that...I thought the poster had answered those questions and I came to the conclusion he was clearly nuts.:o

Jev/N

If you're basing your argument on a comparison with motoring advice, I think you're looking at this from the wrong angle

It seems it's a case of shifting the goal posts until you hear what you want to hear

Case closed (LOL)

Maximilian

The comparison with the motor forum is sheer nonsense.

Again, I'll make a more appropriate comparison. If someone sought advice on Boards as to the best way to perform an appendectomy of himself, should that be allowed merely because advice on other matter is given elsewhere?

Obviously most legal matters are not so immediately hazardous as in that example but they are nevertheless hazardous in their own right.

Yes, sometimes advice on minor matters is disguised as something else. Yes sometimes borderline cases are tolerated. The mods here use their judgement.

The rules are what they are. They are not changing for the foreseeable future.

drkpower

Tom, unfortunately you didnt answer my question which really is why is there a distinction between the policies in the legal and the motoring forum (or any other forum where advice is welcome, yet adverse effects of that advice are possible), given that the consequences of (bad) advice in either can be significant.

For the record, the policy here is probably the correct one (as it is in the medical forum) and it is certainly the prudent one. And perhaps this question is best asked of the Motors Mods (or the Administrators of Boards). But I ask it here for 2 reasons; first, there is a thread on it;), second, this is the legal forum and this is an interesting legal discussion point.

Perhaps we can change it round to take the focus off this policy of this forum, which I can sense is making you uncomfortable.:eek:

What would be the consequences for a forum owner and/or an individual poster if someone took bad advice on how to fix their car and ended up quadraplegic?

Would the consequences be different if someone took (bad) advice on whether to sue their employer and lost?

Maximilian

drkpower wrote: »

Tom, unfortunately you didnt answer my question which really is why is there a distinction between the policies in the legal and the motoring forum (or any other forum where advice is welcome, yet adverse effects of that advice are possible), given that the consequences of (bad) advice in either can be significant.

That's entirely true, bad motoring advice can have consequences. It is however a question that should be addressed to the Motor Forum mods, not us. The mods here and indeed the Admins are in agreement with the policy as regards legal advice here.

This thread has more or less run its course.

drkpower

Maximilian wrote: »

The comparison with the motor forum is sheer nonsense.

Why?

How does potential legal liability for damages caused as a consequence of following incorrect advice differ depending on the content of that advice?

In other words, is someone entilted to sue if they suffer damage as a result of bad legal advice, but is not entitled to sue if they suffer damage as a result of bad mechanical/engineering advice (or accounting advice on how to fill in their P21, or any of the other areas that advice can be found on fora such as this one)?

FreudianSlippers

Not to mention giving advice on this forum could be considered contrary to the rules of the codes of conduct of the bar and law society

You might not care, but I highly doubt anyone on here that is a solicitor or barrister would risk their job to give advice for free to someone on boards.ie

drkpower

Maximilian wrote: »

That's entirely true, bad motoring advice can have consequences. It is however a question that should be addressed to the Motor Forum mods, not us. The mods here and indeed the Admins are in agreement with the policy as regards legal advice here.

This thread has more or less run its course.

No, it hasnt. I have re-framed the question so that it is not specifically aimed at 'Boards' but rather it is now a generic question on liability for advice received on the internet. Surely this is a topic that can be discussed on a 'Legal Discussion' forum?

drkpower

OisinT wrote: »

Not to mention giving advice on this forum could be considered contrary to the rules of the codes of conduct of the bar and law society

You might not care, but I highly doubt anyone on here that is a solicitor or barrister would risk their job to give advice for free to someone on boards.ie

Is it contrary to the rules of the codes of conduct of the bar and law society?

I am not asking people to give advice anywhere? I am trying to find out why legal (and medical forums), the worldover, tend to apply this rule, yet fora in other disciplines tend not to?

I have never heard a satisfactory answer. I often thought it might be because of the tort of negligent mistatement but I dont think that necessarily answers it.

Maximilian

If your gearbox fails to work because someone gave you bad advice, it may cost you, sure. It's quite unlikely however that you will lose your home, get fired, get sued, get boards sued, get me sued, get another user sued, get a criminal record, go to prison etc. etc.

If you can't grasp that (everyone else does), I'm not going to spend time explaining it. There have been plenty of reasons and examples given as to why legal advice is not given here, and I think you agree with them. As far as the motor forum or any other forum is concerned, ask your question there.

At this point, I think you are either trolling or arguing for arguments sake.

The thread has now certainly run its course.

Closed.