what is your take on peaceful protests? (student protests/fees related)

imported_guy

i think that everyone should have a right to express their feelings and protest to get their views across etc but...

recently since im a college student i was exposed to the protest against the fees crowd (yes those drunks), some of em came up to me asking me to join their crusade and i told them i was rich and didnt care if they were introduced (partially true, but the real reason is that i actully want them to come in, it will weed out wasters going into college and failing all first year exams and dropping out while costing the tax payers alot of money, and the fees might even lower our taxes one day, i know a long shot lol) but it would have been like trying to talk to a wall if i tried to argue with them, so they all gave me the "dirty" look and went back to playing loud music and being anti social.

i just think alot of protests are pointless as they wont get you anywhere, specially when people with no power/say in things protest (ones with zero leverage, ones who no one gives 2 shiets about).

i just think student unions protesting against fees is like brian cowen protesting against the iraq war, i dont think obama would give a shiet about cowen, similarly i dont think cowen gives a shiet about the student unions or has much to loose (just like cowen would loose american support, the students who waste their time protesting would loose out on good quality education that irish universities provide)

so what say you?

yay to students protesting or nay?

i say yay let them protest, no skin off my nose, they are only wasting their own time, but id rather pay the fees if push came to shove.

Kiwi_knock

I am for students being allowed to protest over fees. It would affect every student so therefore there should be student protest over it. I am not a member of any fee related groups but I would oppose fees being introduced. Like the OP I would be able to able to afford the fee but that is not the principle of it. The introduction of fees would only lead to a further increase in people seeking grants and seeing that the grants offices have struggled with the high number so far I can not see them being able to cope with a higher demand for grants.

As for categorising these protestors as anti social, I have never experienced that when talking to those involved in fee related groups. I have found them pleasant people who are passionate about fees. Some of those I know who are involved with protests would not struggle with paying the fees but that is again not the principle of the matter.

I can understand where you are coming from with our argument but some of the assumptions you have made are way of the mark.

Pride Fighter

USI are excellent in the work they do. I think some individual students unions are awful but NUIM and UCC both have excellent students unions.

Any protest that is peaceful is warranted. That is what democracy is about.

imported_guy

Pride Fighter wrote: »

Any protest that is peaceful is warranted. That is what democracy is about.

i completely agree but i always say to my self, if you have the power/right to do something doesn't mean you have to excersise it, i took part in my SU elections, i excersised my right to vote, but i didn't like choices i had so i put down "vote of no confidence" on the ballots.

similarly with the free speech mantra, i dont mind people using their right to free speech, but look where that got salman rushdie, he is probably costing the british government millions in security expenses, just so he doesnt get killed by some crazy looney toon following a fatwa.

again similarly with protests, i think if both parties know there is nothing to be achieved from protesting, i just think even if it is their right to do it, it doesnt really sound correct on the moral level that you go ahead with the protest either way, just to waste time or entertain one's self (this applies everywhere not just to students) i think the anti-iraq war protest was the largest one according to guiness book of world records, but even that one didnt succeed in what it set out to achieve.

Pride Fighter

What college you go to imported guy?

Kiwi_knock

If you did not agree with your candidates for SU elections you should have run yourself. If you don't believe in those elected you should get involved, simple as really. The reason students protest are because they are so often ignored by those in power. The SU can only go so far in protecting student's interest, there are times when protests need to be held to highlight an important issue affecting the student body. Student protests attract media attention and that then leads to a wider knowledge of student issues. Most of my knowledge of student protests in other colleges have come from media reports on protests led by students. If there was a more effective way of getting political attention to students issues than it would be pursued but at the moment protests seem to be the best route to gain the attention of those in power.

imported_guy

Pride Fighter wrote: »

What college you go to imported guy?

WIT

Kiwi_knock wrote: »

If you did not agree with your candidates for SU elections you should have run yourself. If you don't believe in those elected you should get involved, simple as really. The reason students protest are because they are so often ignored by those in power. The SU can only go so far in protecting student's interest, there are times when protests need to be held to highlight an important issue affecting the student body. Student protests attract media attention and that then leads to a wider knowledge of student issues. Most of my knowledge of student protests in other colleges have come from media reports on protests led by students. If there was a more effective way of getting political attention to students issues than it would be pursued but at the moment protests seem to be the best route to gain the attention of those in power.

well i have no interest in being the student body president as it is a demanding job and i would much rather focus on my study, besides that, the SU president has no real power or say in anything other than that i have no interest in student body or irish politics because to get elected to the dail or senate
1) you need to be with a socialist party to win an election (and even the irish constitution promotes socialism, and hey theres nothing wrong with that its just most people are embarrased to be socialist and end up in a limbo like we are, neither socialist nor capitalist)
2) you need to be a good liar
3) you need to be good at not caring about anything except yourself

The SU can only go so far in protecting student's interest

yeah i completely agree, but i dont think a student union functions the same way as say IMO or INMO, TUI, they all have something called leverage, if IMO strike, HSE shiet their pants because the A&E would be severly under staffed, so they usually go to the table and talk it out like big boys, similarly with IMNO and with TUI we already had strikes and stuff last year with schools and colleges closing, so they all have leverage, if students protest the most significant thing which happens is they end up on tv, and chapter closed, we are back to square 1.

danman

Reintroducing fees may weed out wasters, as you say. But in my case, I went to university when fees were the norm, my family couldn't afford them.

I took advantage of the EU grants at the time, so I was able to go to university in NI with my fees paid. If I hadn't been able to do this, I would not have recieved my university education.

Because of my education, I've worked and paid taxes for over 20 years. These taxes have gone towards all the services provided to you.

Should I have been denied the chance of an education?

Student protest has been a fact of life for many a year. I agree, some student union members that I encountered, were only in it for the social standing it gave them, but not all. Some were very dedicated to student welfare.

I got the feeling from your OP, that your problem with the union protests were more about a class issue than anything else, but then, maybe you just came accross that way by mistake.

Denerick

Student politics attracts the very worst kind of people and it makes everyone with a political conscience cringe like hell when they start lecturing us on our rights and responsibilities. They have absolutely no credibility whatsoever, they are self important buffoons who will waste the rest of their lives thinking they are actually contributing to the body politic, while in reality they are a virus eating the core of all that is good in our society.

To put it less hyperbolically, I'll give an example. At every student protest there are a number of anarchist flags in the air. Its impossibly childish and leads me to think that these cretins are more interested in 'the day out' than serious protest. An anarchist looking for the State to increase its clout by extra intervention? These idiots deserve only our contempt.

PomBear

Denerick wrote: »

Student politics attracts the very worst kind of people and it makes everyone with a political conscience cringe like hell when they start lecturing us on our rights and responsibilities. They have absolutely no credibility whatsoever, they are self important buffoons who will waste the rest of their lives thinking they are actually contributing to the body politic, while in reality they are a virus eating the core of all that is good in our society.

To put it less hyperbolically, I'll give an example. At every student protest there are a number of anarchist flags in the air. Its impossibly childish and leads me to think that these cretins are more interested in 'the day out' than serious protest. An anarchist looking for the State to increase its clout by extra intervention? These idiots deserve only our contempt.

Why exactly does student politics deserve no credibility? Most student activists are smarter than most in Leinster House or in Senior politics. I've taken an interest in politics in college and it's one of the most valuable experience i've had.

Also on the subject of fees, it wouldn't affect me but I care about the State attacking or education system and some of the most vunerable in todays society. I would partake in fees protest as a matter of solidarity with me fellow students

Denerick

PomBear wrote: »

Why exactly does student politics deserve no credibility? Most student activists are smarter than most in Leinster House or in Senior politics. I've taken an interest in politics in college and it's one of the most valuable experience i've had

Because it attracts self important bufoons who don't understand what they're talking about.

PomBear

Denerick wrote: »

Because it attracts self important bufoons who don't understand what they're talking about.

Very wrong, you haven't been talking to many college activists if that's your opinion. That's just my thoughts

Fuhrer

Last year when I was in University I noticed a growing trend that the SU would elect people from Media and Design/Fashion courses rather then anyone from Politics, Business or Science.

Permabear

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Eliot Rosewater

The fee's protest here in UCC was basically an act of political opportunism by Fine Gael, with their Senator Jerry Buttimer and Councilor Derry Canty attending to just get their photos taken.

The Students Union do have a right to parade around I suppose. But the self-righteousness kills me. For example the President of the UCC SU said the following: "The Students’ Unions of UCC and CIT held a protest through Cork City on 7 October 2010 to protest the financial burdens being placed unequally on students." Unequally? As it stand students pay only 25% of their fees, with a lot of them getting paid grants and other extras. How is that unequal? If anything the taxpayer is being screwed over.

So you shouldn't believe all the high-convoluted philosophy that the SU supposedly base their free fees position on. Students are cheap, and they prioritize getting their degree for as little as possible over the quality of said degree. They then dress up this cheapness with talk of "rights" but it's only window dressing. This march is only about being cheap, nothing else.

Permabear

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Denerick

donegalfella wrote: »

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I agree and disagree. While there are undoubtedly some patently ludicrous courses (EG, Journalism. How absurd. Does anyone think a scrap of paper will make somebody a better journalist? Those 3-4 years would have been far better spent as an apprentice in a media company, and free time should have been spent reading current affairs, history, literature, politics etc. etc. You cannot teach someone to be a good writer) But free education is undoubtedly the hallmark of an egalatarian society. before free secondary education, only a very tiny elite received this education and in many ways back then it was as prestigous as a BA is now. (Not that a BA is prestigous) There is a very clear and obvious demand for educating a wide range of people in all areas of science and humanities. But I question the need to teach someone basic business skills in a basic business course - again, most of the top entrepreneurs barely even know how to read a balance sheet. Education cannot teach literary talent or business acumen, but it can retard these traits if overly focused on forcing 'protocols' or 'techniques' down peoples throats. This is why I think far too many people do further education when the reality is that they will learn much much more working a full time job in an apprentice based system out in the real world.

But then again, thats not the point. College is about cheap beer and wine and weekly hangovers. Thats what I learnt from studying an arts degree, at any rate

Denerick

PomBear wrote: »

Very wrong, you haven't been talking to many college activists if that's your opinion. That's just my thoughts

I go to a college full of activists. Too many people are active, not nearly enough people are thinking. If more people thought and less people acted, the world would be a much better place.

Permabear

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Fuhrer

donegalfella wrote: »

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Unless someone can come over from Poland and hammer the nail for you cheaper...

Denerick

The only chance Ireland has of becoming a knowledge economy rests on producing significant numbers of Science graduates. These kinds of skills would buttress economic development in all areas of business life in this country, and allow us to specialise in the high tech, clean future. Without them we'll lack any economic distinctiveness.

prinz

imported_guy wrote: »

i think that everyone should have a right to express their feelings and protest to get their views across etc but...
....but it would have been like trying to talk to a wall if i tried to argue with them, so they all gave me the "dirty" look and went back to playing loud music and being anti social..

On fees in particular that's a fairly valid one tbh. That's something that affects the student body so it's fine to protest about that.

I loved student protests when I was at university. The hypocrisy was hilarious in most protests. My problem with student unions and protests began when they SU started organising protests against things which they had never consulted the student body on, because it was merely a 'fashionable cause', particularly when it came to protests about international politics and other social issues that have no relevance whatsoever to the SU or the student body at large. A number of times I brought it up with people and was brushed off, described as insular, unenlightened, a sheep and whatnot.

The SU and protests became the favoured past-time of a certain type, and as someone pointed out previously, they largely came from a select couple of courses, with one replacing the other over and over. The vast majority of students lost interest completely in anything the SU had to say or protest about, there were actual real issues which needed SU action instead they were busy protesting about America or Israel or some such. It has come as no suprise to me to see a number of familiar SU 'campaigners' pop up in a number of cases such as Shell To Sea etc and frequently appearing on the likes of indymedia articles.

PomBear

Denerick wrote: »

I go to a college full of activists. Too many people are active, not nearly enough people are thinking. If more people thought and less people acted, the world would be a much better place.

We obviously go to two very different colleges as I have intellectual debates from all political backgrounds on a daily basis, in which i am always left asking myself more questions than i asked them :P Some good thinkers in my college :P I admit some bystander but most higher ups in the groups have good ideas

Denerick

PomBear wrote: »

We obviously go to two very different colleges as I have intellectual debates from all political backgrounds on a daily basis, in which i am always left asking myself more questions than i asked them :P Some good thinkers in my college :P I admit some bystander but most higher ups in the groups have good ideas

Ah yes, the intellectual tussling of a university twat! (Not aimed at you in particular)

If only these people actually paused to take the time to read Rousseau, rather than quote him at any and every opportunity, they might be taken a little more seriously.

PomBear

Denerick wrote: »

Ah yes, the intellectual tussling of a university twat! (Not aimed at you in particular)

If only these people actually paused to take the time to read Rousseau, rather than quote him at any and every opportunity, they might be taken a little more seriously.

I've read many political books recommended to me by my peers and discussed with them after, seems like you know very few activists imo