Query

Tmeos

Hi there, I'm just wondering about something and hoping someone here can help me. Would anyone have a rough idea of what percentage of the population in Ireland pay no tax at all on income be it through insufficient income, unemployment, old age pension etc.

Appreciate any input/thoughts

danman

I've read that it's between 40% and 50%, but no hard data for you I'm afraid.

hiorta

By buying goods and services, everyone pays tax via VAT whether employed or not. It must total a tidy sum.

ei.sdraob

there are

1.9 million in employment (all sectors)



about half of those are effectively out of the taxnet or pay very little tax

see this here from Ronan L. > http://www.ronanlyons.com/2009/07/28/a-little-quiz-on-irelands-income-tax/

• – the average millionaire pays six times the income tax rate of the average worker. There’s one thing the system ain’t and that’s regressive!
• – amazingly, two thirds of the 2.2m people paying income tax in Ireland paid an average rate of less than 10%.
• – as per above, the median earner pays about 4% in income tax in Ireland, compared to 20% in the OECD.

ei.sdraob

hiorta wrote: »

By buying goods and services, everyone pays tax via VAT whether employed or not. It must total a tidy sum.

hes asking about direct taxation

indirect and once off taxes like vat, capital gains etc has gone down quite a bit, savings have gone up sharply

there was a graph posted here and in economics sub-forum before, if i could find it

gurramok

ei.sdraob wrote: »

as per above, the median earner pays about 4% in income tax in Ireland, compared to 20% in the OECD.

Are you saying or rather Ronan saying that the median wage is about 25k? :eek:

ei.sdraob

gurramok wrote: »

Are you saying or rather Ronan saying that the median wage is about 25k? :eek:

good question, Ronan is lurking around here, ask him

certainly fits the Trade Unions definition of "low paid"

edit: i noticed his article has a figure of 2.2million which the total employed + unemployed as per cso stats around time he made article, maybe thats the reason?

RichardAnd

It's actually more than half. Public sector workers dont' really pay tax when you think about as they get paid by the state. The tax they do pay simply go back to the coffers they received their money from.

I'm not sure about numbers but I would guess that perhaps less than one million people here really pay income tax. That right?

gurramok

ei.sdraob wrote: »

good question, Ronan is lurking around here, ask him

certainly fits the Trade Unions definition of "low paid"

Thing is, the figure for the workforce has never been disclosed by the CSO unlike their counterparts in the UK.
We've had 'mean' & 'average' across sectors but never the median wage figure released.

The_Honeybadger

gurramok wrote: »

Are you saying or rather Ronan saying that the median wage is about 25k? :eek:

I read recently that the median wage in Ireland is 29.5k. Can't even remember where I saw this but it was a gov source as far as I remember, perhaps a more informed poster could confirm / correct this.

gurramok

ei.sdraob wrote: »

edit: i noticed his article has a figure of 2.2million which the total employed + unemployed as per cso stats around time he made article, maybe thats the reason?

Yeh, from here http://www.budget.gov.ie/Budgets/2010/Documents/Annexes%20to%20the%20Summary%20of%20Budget%20Measures%20Final.pdf

Page 16, 47% estimated to have paid no income tax in 2010. Another 41% pay standard rate of tax(helped by credits), brings them under 35k level(think this is right). Of course levies are applied after that.

ei.sdraob

gurramok wrote: »

Yeh, from here http://www.budget.gov.ie/Budgets/2010/Documents/Annexes%20to%20the%20Summary%20of%20Budget%20Measures%20Final.pdf

Page 16, 47% estimated to have paid no income tax in 2010. Another 41% pay standard rate of tax(helped by credits), brings them under 35k level(think this is right). Of course levies are applied after that.

thats scary!

no wonder the population are not up in arms about NAMA, bailouts and spending waste

half of the people are not directly hit in their wallet by these events (yet)
and are effectively bribed into submission


if everyone in the workforce had to pay some amount, then it might drive it home how screwed the country is

Liam Byrne

ei.sdraob wrote: »

half of the people are not directly hit in their wallet by these events (yet)
and are effectively bribed into submission

What about the levies (direct) and the increase in all types of insurance (indirect) ?

I'd reckon everyone has been hit in some shape or form, and in addition the pay cuts that most people have had to endure means there's a LOT of people directly hit in their wallet - not least those who were previously paying tax and now aren't, because they were let go, making this the wrong place to discuss the above, really.

ei.sdraob

Liam Byrne wrote: »

What about the levies (direct) and the increase in all types of insurance (indirect) ?
I'd reckon everyone has been hit in some shape or form, and in addition the pay cuts that most people have had to endure means there's a LOT of people directly hit in their wallet - not least those who were previously paying tax and now aren't, because they were let go, making this the wrong place to discuss the above, really.

They obviously havent been hit enough (yet)

or are not bright enough to add the 2 and 2 and realize they are paying for mistakes of few

i dunno, widenining the taxnet might get more people interested in current affairs and demand more responsibility of the government

ei.sdraob

@Liam

most of these levies and things like cuts in PS only came last budget

Ronans article and CSO figures are before that

once there are more figures available then we would know if more people were dragged into the net, eitherway even if they do pay something its still much less than their EU counterparts (who certainly love rioting and burning cars )

the tax returns so far thsi year are less than what was expected so...

Aidric

ei.sdraob wrote: »

indirect and once off taxes like vat, capital gains etc has gone down quite a bit, savings have gone up sharply

I'm open to correction on this but i seem to remember it being reported that there was a spike in CGT in the first quarter exchequer returns. This was when compared with the figures for the same period in 09.

Cookie_Monster

RichardAnd wrote: »

Public sector workers dont' really pay tax when you think about as they get paid by the state.

that is a baffling statement!

of course they pay tax, just like the rest of us.

A teacher (for example) on 35k a year does not get 35k, they get it minus tax (and other deductions) like any private sector worker.

From the states point of view you could argue they don't pay tax per say but only get paid a % of the original 35k but from the individual point of view of course they pay tax

Tipp Man

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

that is a baffling statement!

of course they pay tax, just like the rest of us.

A teacher (for example) on 35k a year does not get 35k, they get it minus tax (and other deductions) like any private sector worker.

From the states point of view you could argue they don't pay tax per say but only get paid a % of the original 35k but from the individual point of view of course they pay tax

It makes no difference to the government if they pay the newly qualified teacher 38k before tax or 25,400 after tax, the effect is the same i.e. government pays 25.4k

So in effect the teacher is making no net contribution to the government coffers

RichardAnd

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

that is a baffling statement!

of course they pay tax, just like the rest of us.

A teacher (for example) on 35k a year does not get 35k, they get it minus tax (and other deductions) like any private sector worker.

From the states point of view you could argue they don't pay tax per say but only get paid a % of the original 35k but from the individual point of view of course they pay tax

Yes they pay tax in theory but their tax is not really money in the states pocket when you think about it. If I gave you 100eur but charged you 20% tax, then I'd really be giving you 80eur. The 20eur I get back is not extra money for me, it's simply some of the money I gave to you back.

Yet if someone else gave you 100eur and I got 20eur of that well then that money IS money for me as I would be 20eur better off.

It's the same with the state. Private workers get payed by someone other than the state so their taxes are money coming in. PubS costs the state money but they get some back, but what they receive back is much less than what went out so that money is not profit in any way.

They pay tax but in reality they may as well just be getting their take home pay after tax without tax. Makes no difference really because they are getting payed and paying to the same money chest.

Laminations

Tipp Man wrote: »

It makes no difference to the government if they pay the newly qualified teacher 38k before tax or 25,400 after tax, the effect is the same i.e. government pays 25.4k

So in effect the teacher is making no net contribution to the government coffers

Without getting into a debate about teachers wages, they give €35k worth of work at the discounted price of €25k or whatever. Giving your time and labour at a discount is a net contribution.