Making the first move: Advice please

Jake LeMotta

First of all, I just want to point out this is a serious thread.
If it comes across a little comical, please, bare with me.

I've been out of the game for a while - in a manner of speaking.

Recently I've got back in. Again - in a manner of speaking.

But things have changed, mainly cause I've gotten older I guess (I'm still pretty young at 23).

Chat up lines that used to work when I was younger now seem thoughtless and ridiculous to a certain extent.
"How you doing?"
"Beautiful..."
"Hi sweetheart"
It's just not happening.
And you couldn't really blame any self respecting female to fall for one of them.

So let's visualize this situation.

Your a young, I dunno, say Richard Gear. A 23 year old Richard Gear.
Or Ashton Kucher, Justin Timberlake, I dunno; a young attractive dude with a good sense of confidence and cool, composed demeanor.

Your sat on a park bench on a sunny afternoon, just relaxing, listening to your Mp3 player, enjoying the weather and the sights.
A young attractive girl walks by, glances at you and you get a good vibe, as in - your in there if you play your cards half decent.

The opening line is all important.
But you don't want to compromise your cool, composed manner with something comical or ridiculous.

What line would you open with to initiate verbal contact??

Just a few examples??

Again, this is definitely not a "take the piss" attempt or anything.
I'd just be interested to hear peoples idea's or thoughts on the matter as a whole.
Cheers.

S23

Don't know what anyone else is going to tell you on here but I don't believe in 'lines'. As you said they worked when you were a teenager but generally adult women worth the time of day don't go for bulls**t like that.

A young attractive girl walks by, glances at you and you get a good vibe, as in - your in there if you play your cards half decent.

Sorry but you probably need to grow out of that too. Someone smiling/glancing/whatever at you does not mean you 'are in' if you 'play your cards right'. Not to say the lady in question would reject your advances if she likes you but you seem to suggest you getting a 'good vibe' means you're guaranteed success if you can come out with the right combination of words. Abrekedabra, mumbo jumbo!! and then she swoons and is putty in your hands? Probably not.

Without sounding too over the top maybe you need to stop objectifying women. How about you just talk to them like people instead of approaching them as someone you want to score with?

How about you just trying saying hello in a very basic way and striking up a conversation from there instead of trying to use lines/strategies/techniques/head games.

Jake LeMotta

S23 wrote: »

Don't know what anyone else is going to tell you on here but I don't believe in 'lines'. As you said they worked when you were a teenager but generally adult women worth the time of day don't go for bulls**t like that.

A young attractive girl walks by, glances at you and you get a good vibe, as in - your in there if you play your cards half decent.

Sorry but you probably need to grow out of that too. Someone smiling/glancing/whatever at you does not mean you 'are in' if you 'play your cards right'. Not to say the lady in question would reject your advances if she likes you but you seem to suggest you getting a 'good vibe' means you're guaranteed success if you can come out with the right combination of words. Abrekedabra, mumbo jumbo!! and then she swoons and is putty in your hands? Probably not.

Without sounding too over the top maybe you need to stop objectifying women. How about you just talk to them like people instead of approaching them as someone you want to score with?

How about you just trying saying hello in a very basic way and striking up a conversation from there instead of trying to use lines/strategies/techniques/head games.

Well, it's not exactly like this bro.

It's not like I'm trying to "score" per-say.
It's more along the lines of simply trying to initiate verbal contact.

As far as just saying a plane "hello", I guess it's hard to describe, but I couldn't see it working - it's pretty formal, doesn't really leave much scope for use of eye contact, body language - as a means of communication.

As you said, it's like your trying to strike up an actual conversation, which may sound like that's the point of the exercise, but it's more to communicate as oppose to conversate - does that make any sense?

To try and elaborate on what I mean; the initial contact is body language/eye contact - "signals", as such.

This must be maintained as well as augmented by verbal contact.
A plain "hello" shifts the contact to almost purely verbal..
"How you doing" might be better, but yeah, that sounds even a bit too suggestive in itself, don't really work too good.

Hitgirl

First of all, get chat up lines, of any kind, out of you head! They're good as a bit of a joke, if you're trying to amuse a girl, but if you're actually serious, no way, big mistake. Mainly because, no girl really takes them seriously, and even if she likes you, chat up lines, for the vast majority, are impossible to respond to. They worked when you were younger because they are somewhat immature and unrealistic. For me, having a stranger say "Beautiful..." or "Hi sweetheart" is entirely cheesey, even if you do feel somwhat flattered.
Honestly, the best advice I can offer you here, is to just be natural. Simple and as cliche as it sounds, it's by far the best way to be. In the situation of you sitting on the park bench, a smile and a "Hey, how's it going?", is enough to let her know you're interested. The problem usually occurs after this imo, becuase although you've given her reason to answer "Great thanks", she could just keep walking by, even if she's interested! So it's always best to be direct in some way, as in open up a conversation, to let her know you're interested. "Lovely day, pity i have to go back to work/great day to to off" etc. Once you've chatted for a bit it's perfectly acceptable to ask for her number. And much less embarrassing than some cheesy chat up line, that could ruin your cool exterior! It depends on the situation, like obviously you can't just pick a line and apply it to every situation, but whatever feels most natural is always best imo

Good luck!!

S23

Not 100% sure I'm following you on this one. I'm not saying just say 'hello' and then wait for a reaction.

If you are looking to provoke a response then you could try non verbal contact as you have suggested. If someone shoots you a glance and a smile then look her dead in the eye and smile back before saying' hey hows it going' or whatever. If she is really interested and confident in herself she will engage with you.

I reckon you are overthinking this a bit too much. You seem sensible and confident enough so I'm sure in due course you'll run into someone who catches your eye and you catch theres and on you go from there.

No point in trying to force it IMO

Hitgirl

And a "Hey, how you doin'?", only sounds suggestive if it's done in the style of Joey from friends! Otherwise, it's just a way of opening conversation.

countryliving

as a lady out on the scene and dealing with cheesy and stupid lines from guys....especially when they are drunk....if your in the park just say hey how are you, great day......just easy conversation, casual and just chilled. when i am out - the same thing.........if a guy approaches me and just says hi and he is being himself or makes some comment are you having a good night - that is good to continue the conversation....i will only be rude to a guy if he says something insulting to me or is vulger or drunk. i ignore them, but my friends and i always react positively to a guy being himself - good luck

Lux23

How about Hi, my name is ****** and how are you today? Simple and won't make you look like a loser in a bad romcom.

shellyboo

How about just treating her like a regular human being? Make small talk the way you would if you were in a lift with a work colleague, or sitting beside someone on the bus. "Gorgeous day isn't it? I love coming to the park when it's sunny".

You know... Conversation. Once you've struck up a convo, it's easy to ask for her number, or preferably give her yours and head off before you seem pushy/creepy/something.

Chatting up a stranger is such a minefield, the best thing you can do is keep it as simple and brief as possible.

Jake LeMotta

At a particular point now and it's causing my head to spin a bit over how exactly to progress as such.

The verbal communication stage has not been reached yet but I'm progressing in terms of presence of mind and getting good reactions.

So what it is at this point; say for example today.
I was having a stroll about town. Nice looking girls everywhere.
I don't mean to come across conceited or cavalier here, I'm not trying to inflate my ego by saying this or anything like that - not at all - but just to give you a "feel" for the situation, I should point out I have no problem drawing looks. I'm pretty good looking and I carry myself in a way that tends to hold the glances of females.

So I was having a stroll about, as I said - lot's of lovely looking girls. I see this one girl and she really catches my eye.

From experience I know a straight stare at her is going to elicit nothing more than her either staring at her feet, or outright blanking me.
I guess it's not really a turn on to be that direct, doesn't really incorporate the mating dynamic vibe into the situation - as in, the masculine and feminine side's/strengths of the person are not on display or they don't "collide", so to speak - and that's the attractive thing right?

So she's walking towards me at a stroll, it's like a plaza type of area - you know, everyone's strolling.
So I give it the "sleepy eyes" while looking straight ahead (it has occurred to me that this may sound particularly comical, but it was a situation and reaction that evoked a good response, so it's for real - despite sounding a little daft).

So I'm giving it the sleepy eyes, not looking at her directly but she is very much in my peripheral vision and aware of my reaction to her.
I assume she's flattered or something.
She, as with me, does not make direct eye contact but I can feel she has me in her vision also.

Her reaction is immediate. Her body language takes on a sort of "inviting/sexy" edge as such, I don't really know how to describe it.
She reaches up and pulls her hand through her hair, all the while not looking at me directly but I can tell I'm very much in her vision.
(This positive reaction doesn't always happen. Sometimes they just look down or something, not interested - can't win em all)

And then I don't know what to do.

Do I pin her with a leer, say "Hi, how you doing" as she passes?
Simply look at her, maintain the "sleepy eyes" and try to make eye contact with her? Nod or something?

I have experimented with this a little. What I find is, first of all, the more attractive I find her, obviously, the stronger the sense of attraction I feel towards her is and thus the stronger the signals being emitted are.
And when they are strong, it tends to be more of a turn on for the person, the female in question.

I guess cause it's a turn on to know that this person finds you very attractive as oppose to fairly attractive. Or maybe just cause the signals are more magnetic?
Does that make any sense?

But anyway, yeah - it's like a delicate situation. Don't want to be too direct cause that will just elicit a "staring of the feet". But have to further the visual communication to a point where it's comfortable and acceptable to both parties (all done by signals, subtle gestures, expression, eye contact whatever) to initiate verbal contact of some kind.

It would be difficult for someone to describe how I should then look at the person. So I don't think advice can be given in that regard.

But what I find is thoughts are generally communicated through these signals and subtle gestures.
So what exactly should I be thinking, as such.
What would a girl want at that point? At the pivotal moment that I have described above?
What feeling would she then want communicated towards her?
What might she want to happen then so that a verbal communication could be initiated comfortably while the magnetic attraction of the accentuated masculine and feminine qualities are at work?


I've been in the opposing situation also.
Where I'm on the receiving end.
A girl stares at me in an almost devious way. Like an almost total leer.
If a guy did it to me he'd be pretty much communicating that he's on for fighting or something.

It was so forceful than it actually made me look down at my feet.
Might have been fun for the girl but it didn't do to much at helping to initiate more meaningful contact - either that or I just wasn't on the ball at those times?


Anyway, again apologies, at no point do I intend to come across like I'm trying to expand my ego with any of those descriptions.
I'm genuinely looking for any potential useful input, advice or simply opinions.
Cheers

S23

Seriously, my advice would be go talk to a councellor or something. Honestly, I'm not sure what planet you are living on. I've never heard such elaborate bull**** to describe a walk through a 'plaza' in my life. If you think the rest of the world adheres to these weird rules of engagement and imagined nouances of attempted engagement and communication then you're miles off.

99% of people are just fairly normal and know how to interact with other human beings without some ridiculous analysis and attempt to conform to a set pattern of behaviour that you seem to think will mean success with the opposite sex.

You'd been given some pretty sound and basic advice before. You chose not to take it.

You now come back with 'sleepy eyes' eye contact through peripheral vision and a gross over statement of a girl running her hand through her hair. Fcuk me fella are you for real or what.

You seem to think you are a good looking bloke and have no problem attracting attention. So how about you go out some night and just talk to a few women during the course of your evening. Say hello, have a normal conversation like a normal person would. It should help your capacity to interact with women and the rest of the world in general.

However, if you keep up this hyperbolic analysis of every little fcuking thing for the rest of your life then you'll have to get very lucky to chance across a lady with as weird a world view as your own when it comes to engaging with the opposite sex on even the most basic level.

However, I think you may need to talk to someone to help you readjust this bizzare over analytical view of the world you seem to have. It's talking to a woman you're going on about, not nuclear physics. Its just not that complicated

Gyalist

A classic case of paralysis of analysis. Chatting to women is easy - all you need is a few interesting stories and the ability to accept rejection as an occupational hazard. Maybe that's easy for me to say as I come from a cultural background where men hit on women constantly, in a way that isn't done in Ireland.

If, as you claim, you're a good looking guy, you will always get attention but you still need the social skills to capitalise on it. Constantly analysing every action and reaction will cause you to lose that brief window of opportunity to make an approach.

zxcvbnm1

dude - u really are clueless alkright.

To be honest - i don'teven really think its appropriate to walk up to random people in a park or somewhere to chat them up.

Thats what pubs are for.

My advice - go to pubs and clubs and places and just have a normal conversation.

I don't understand why you seeem so reluctant to take this point on board.

Jake LeMotta

S23 wrote: »

Seriously, my advice would be go talk to a councellor or something. Honestly, I'm not sure what planet you are living on. I've never heard such elaborate bull**** to describe a walk through a 'plaza' in my life. If you think the rest of the world adheres to these weird rules of engagement and imagined nouances of attempted engagement and communication then you're miles off.

99% of people are just fairly normal and know how to interact with other human beings without some ridiculous analysis and attempt to conform to a set pattern of behaviour that you seem to think will mean success with the opposite sex.

You'd been given some pretty sound and basic advice before. You chose not to take it.

You now come back with 'sleepy eyes' eye contact through peripheral vision and a gross over statement of a girl running her hand through her hair. Fcuk me fella are you for real or what.

You seem to think you are a good looking bloke and have no problem attracting attention. So how about you go out some night and just talk to a few women during the course of your evening. Say hello, have a normal conversation like a normal person would. It should help your capacity to interact with women and the rest of the world in general.

However, if you keep up this hyperbolic analysis of every little fcuking thing for the rest of your life then you'll have to get very lucky to chance across a lady with as weird a world view as your own when it comes to engaging with the opposite sex on even the most basic level.

However, I think you may need to talk to someone to help you readjust this bizzare over analytical view of the world you seem to have. It's talking to a woman you're going on about, not nuclear physics. Its just not that complicated

Yes, your right bro, I am very analytical, in every facet of life.

The alias of Jake LeMotta is misleading in this regard, as he was a bull who, for the majority, disregarded technical prowess.
Should be something more like Floyd Mayweather, Zab Judah, definitely and Alexey Ignishov if were talking K-1.
..just joking here of course.

Back to the point. For me, everything's conscious, nothing is based on instinct alone. It's just my way of thinking.
As you say quite accurately, these "subtle nuances" of engagement are generally taken on a subconscious level.

Take for example the raising of the eyebrows.
Ever speaking to a girl and she looks at you with raised eyebrows.
Do you consciously think, "Woah, she raised her eyebrows - I'm in!"
My guess is, probably not.
But that is the message being conveyed. Although I'd imagine with most, this registers on more a subconscious level - possibly.
I'd hate to come across like a "know-it-all" who's on his high horse a bit.
That kind of attitude tends to be interpreted as condescension and is often reciprocated with exactly that, which is not so productive for this thread.


I understand the point your making and in many ways it is constructive and of course understandable from your point of view (what the f**k is this lad on), but you must understand when your opinion is so forceful that it manifests itself with comments like


"I've never heard such elaborate bull****"


"Fcuk me fella are you for real or what."


As well as making comments like I should see a councilor - surely you can see how these type of insinuations could be construed as being condescending and even insulting?
Having said that, due to the fact that you elaborated yourself and point of view pretty well, it actually does come across like this is your genuine opinion - even with a slight element of concern. But just to make you aware despite this, how your comments may be interpreted.


I don't mean to say that from a defensive stand point, just an admonishing one.




As regards your comment - "it's not nuclear physics, it's just talking" - well, that is true, but..



I'm going to use an analogy here (this may be a long post).


Say for example a boxing match.
Your comment "it's just talking" - let's say, that represents fighter A.
Fighter A is a brawler. He's strong and powerful. He gets in, throws punches, takes punches, but gets the job done - wins some and looses some. But overall, he doesn't dedicate much time to the thought process behind the fight - to his strategy, his game plan, things like keeping his range etc.
He'll be aware of these things to a certain extent - and with experience he'll pick up on them, but more out of instinct than conscious thought - but for the most part, he takes the fight as it comes.



Let's take fighter B. This is the analytical fighter.
This is the guy who treats the fight like you said - like it's nuclear physics.
He has visualized every facet of the bout.

Every strike that could potentially be thrown from every range.
The poise of the opposing fighter and thus the range he is likely maintain.
Every counter and defense to every strike from that range.
That's just getting started really.
Of course also he is strong and conditioned and trained well.


Who's gonna win the bout.
It's a rhetorical question really.


Most of us choose to be fighter A. Cause it's plain and easy, we don't have to think about what were doing too much outside of the gym.
And it gets the job done.
And most importantly, were happy being like this.



Perhaps some of us choose to be fighter B - maybe just cause he's happy to dedicate the time to the thought process - maybe he likes to think.

The guy who thinks about his game morning, noon and night.
Who takes every opportunity to visualize his opponent, the situation and how the interaction will occur.


Now, apply that logic to our current situation.
A guy could walk up to a girl sat alone at a bar and give it a try.

Depending on how "strong" he is - using the boxing comparison to compare strengths of character or qualities to physical traits - he might get the girl, he might get rejected.
He might win, he might loose. And either way, he'll probably come away with a few dings on his face. And he'll probably learn a thing or two for next time.



Break it down to the point where your analyzing all these - as you said - subtle nuances. Her reaction to your presence, her fluctuating reaction to your approach, analyzing your approach and changing it accordingly to yield positive results, being aware that it's not just you - the person - but the way that you -the person - comes across, that makes the impression.


Look down through history.
The analytical fighters were always the best.



Ali, the technician dismantled Liston, the brawler.


Tyson - who was regarded more as a beast but was actually a superior technician, knocked out pretty much everyone.


Mayweather currently who is undefeated and comes away from most bouts without so much as a scratch.


UFC - Anderson Silva, undefeated - toys with his opponents, regarded a technical genius.
I could go on all day.


Legendary womanizers - I dunno, they're not so popular.

And the point of my doing this is not to womanize flippantly, just to meet some women I like.




If your reading this, shaking your head thinking "this guy is truly off his cake", which may be the case (the fact you think I'm daft, not the fact that I am) given the tone and nature of the responses I have got so far, well, what can I say.

I've done my best to illustrate my point of view.
Beyond that, all I can say is, I'm open to opinions, but I'd prefer if they came a across in a subdued and constructive manner.


***************


As regards the actual initial question I had; what I have since deduced is that masculinity is the attractive point for females, just like femininity is the attractive point in reverse.


To give a straight look in the eye to a female you find attractive is to compromise your masculinity, the attractive point, as it comes across as needy or leaves you excessively open - and that's not strong, not masculine.


Where's to maintain your "strength", your masculinity and use subtle gestures or directed body language, as we usually do on a subconscious level anyway towards someone we like, gauging the reaction and then furthering the interaction in a way that again, does not compromise your "strength", this I believe is what will maintain the aspect of your person that the female finds enticing and further interaction should be positive.





So for real, if I'm not exasperating some people by referring again to the "sleepy eyes"

To create a hypothetical situation - you make the "sleepy eyes" in the direction of a girl walking by you - the reciprocated gestures are positive, I dunno, puffing out her chest or something, whatever.



Now that we've got the positive reaction, to further the contact while maintaining our - composure I suppose - perhaps just bearing that in mind, "maintain cool composure" and say "How you doing?" with a smile.
If the body language and "subtle nuances" reflect the composed train of thought then it should come across cool, and masculine - and that's the key really.
Don't want to go from cool to fool with one subconscious (at least on one persons part) exchange.



If she's far away, blowing a kiss, a wink, something, again everything else reflecting the composed train of thought, most importantly, masculine demeanor.

**********

Oh and just one more point I wanted to make.

"If you think the rest of the world adheres to these weird rules of engagement and imagined nouances of attempted engagement and communication then you're miles off."

No I don't at all think that everyone or that many people at all think in this regard.
I read a study one time, it commented that only 2% of people are in touch with the subconscious activities.

LegacyUser

OP, you need to seek/go back for professional help. You are drawing bizarre conclusions from meaningless non encounters. The women you imagine have you 'in their vision' and who you imagine notice your 'sleepy eyes' are simply passers by who have no awareness of you at all.

Have you been in the care system at all?

Some of the things you are describing are almost delusions, certainly your thinking style is very unusual. Almost as though you believe people are telepathic with you.

Forget about picking up girls for the time being and maybe go along to your GP and see if you can get referred on.

S23

You can take my comments as condescending or whatever you like. They aren't meant to be. If you genuinely believe these things you are saying then I think you need to seek help.

Honestly its not how a normal person (spare me some load of waffle about 'what is normal?' by the way) views the world.

I don't know why you are on here. You asked for advice and you got it. You then chose to ignore it. Thats fair enough. You certainly don't have to take any advice given.

But now you are back on with this bizzare waffle about running hands through hair, sleepy eyes and all that craic. It seems you want to have some conversation about theorethical subconscious human interaction or something.

I may not be a Moderator but I'm pretty sure that this isn't the suitable fourm for that kind of discussion. Your opinions of a study you have read about a study of subconcious activities are not an issue for the PI or RI forums in my book. I don't know what it is that you want here?

Leaving aside your woefully bad and drawn out boxing analogy, which, for the record, was a dreadful attempt to draw a comparison between the two subjects, that certainly has no place on the PI or RI forums.

You go back into more talk of sleepy eyes, subtle nuances, obscure body language and all the rest of it. Are you asking a question, trying to sound clever or just here on a random waffle?

So I'll be nice and take it that you are on the level and you believe all this stuff you are saying. In that case my advice stays the same and concurs with the above poster. Seek help, honestly, this is all in your head. To be blunt about it you sound like a delusional nutcase.

Thats my final word on it. This is no longer a PI/RI issue. You either badly need help.

Or, this is all a big wind up and you're just a troll. Either way, I don't see this as a thread belonging here anymore. Best of luck to you

Zaph

I really have no idea wtf this thread is about any more, but suffice to say that the boxing forum is that way

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OP, you've gone off on long rambling posts with loads of boxing analogies here before. Kindly stop that and learn how to post more coherently or your next thread won't even last this long.