fixed gear 50:16 , stopping and other questions!

kumate_champ07

just built my first wheel, new hub was perfect match for the old one so reused spokes and rim, rim is in great condition and pretty decent but not flashy, which I dont mind

anyway it has a 16t cog, before that I was using a 17t freewheel on the older hub which was a freewheel only hub. I went for 2 test-rides last night and my knees felt a little sore, tho fine now. I presume the stress on them when they werent warmed up was to blame or is this going to be a daily occurrence with such a high gear?

My chainring is 50t but cant get a smaller size as its an obsolete fitting so Im stuck with it till I get a new chainset.

so, what is the best way to stop with a high gear? Im afraid to pick up speed in the city so will I be going slow mostly? gonna fix my front brake today, I went brakeless last night but picked empty roads and actually had no problems, tried to stop/slow down at different points just so I'd be ready for any red lights. Is a skid stop possible? do I apply front brake while resisting the drive/pedals? do straps not matter so much with a high gear since the pedals dont spin as much?

Chips Lovell

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

so, what is the best way to stop with a high gear?

A brake. Get it fixed and use it.

I ride around town on a bigger gear than that and have no problem stopping.

niceonetom

Brakes. For the love of god, brakes. If you're asking these questions then you clearly don't have the experience to push that gear without them.

I think that gear is a touch on the big side too. Why not get a 17t or 18t cog? There's no shame in it, and you'd actually be faster in most situations (accelerating from stopped or out of the corners etc.). Learn how to spin, and if you want to build strength take it to the hills.

Chips Lovell

niceonetom wrote: »

Why not get a 17t or 18t cog?

Good advice there. The only reason I have such a big gear on my bike is I use it for training on the track and can't be arsed switching cogs to commute. If I was using it as a commuter, I'd go for a 17.

kumate_champ07

niceonetom wrote: »

Brakes. For the love of god, brakes. If you're asking these questions then you clearly don't have the experience to push that gear without them.

I think that gear is a touch on the big side too. Why not get a 17t or 18t cog? There's no shame in it, and you'd actually be faster in most situations (accelerating from stopped or out of the corners etc.). Learn how to spin, and if you want to build strength take it to the hills.

Im definitely going to have a front brake but is a back break needed? wont it just become a habit using it all the time when its easier? or is it easier?

Im very low on cash so 16t is all I can use for a week or 2, it came with the hub. likewise with the chainring.

I have no problem taking off from a standing stop, I stay seated too. just asking for advice on stopping techniques. I have plenty of strength already from powerlifitng

kumate_champ07

el tonto wrote: »

A brake. Get it fixed and use it.

I ride around town on a bigger gear than that and have no problem stopping.

so how about you tell me how you stop?

Chips Lovell

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

Im definitely going to have a front brake but is a back break needed? wont it just become a habit using it all the time when its easier? or is it easier?

Front brake is all you need really with fixed.

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

so how about you tell me how you stop?

I use the brake

Lumen

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

so how about you tell me how you stop?

Just use the front brake. It's no different from having a freewheel, except that your legs take longer to slow down (your legs have no real rotational inertia anyway, it's almost all forward momentum from your body and bike weight).

A rear brake is useful in some circumstances but generally won't stop you faster since at maximum braking your rear wheel is off the ground.

kumate_champ07

el tonto wrote: »

Front brake is all you need really with fixed.



I use the brake

do you use the front brake every time you stop? I think I was confused about physics there for a sec

niceonetom

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

Im definitely going to have a front brake but is a back break needed? wont it just become a habit using it all the time when its easier? or is it easier?

Im very low on cash so 16t is all I can use for a week or 2, it came with the hub. likewise with the chainring.

I have no problem taking off from a standing stop, I stay seated too. just asking for advice on stopping techniques. I have plenty of strength already from powerlifitng

Back brake is not essential, but a front brake is for all but the most experienced/foolhardy/undergeared. Do you have an ideological problem with using one?

Stopping/slowing the bike using the pedals is more a technique thing than a strength thing. All those squats will not help you now. It's about unweighting the rear wheel for a fraction of a second and resisting the pedals just so; that'll make the back end skid or hop and skip and does slow you down. It's fun, but it's not anywhere near as effective as a front brake. You can shed speed by simply resisting the pedals, but that's awkward, not fun, and associated with knee problems.

If you're a big strong boy who likes his protein shakes there's probably a lot of KGs pushing down on that rear wheel so skip/skidding is going to be harder. Nuts to stem stuff. Best practiced away from traffic. I suggest a wet grass until you get a feel for it.

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

so how about you tell me how you stop?

With. a. brake.

Chips Lovell

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

do you use the front brake every time you stop? I think I was confused about physics there for a sec

Pretty much yeah. It's the most efficient way of stopping. Either that or you're slowing down in anticipation of lights or wrecking your tyres skidding.

kumate_champ07

niceonetom wrote: »

Back brake is not essential, but a front brake is for all but the most experienced/foolhardy/undergeared. Do you have an ideological problem with using one?

Stopping/slowing the bike using the pedals is more a technique thing than a strength thing. All those squats will not help you now. It's about unweighting the rear wheel for a fraction of a second and resisting the pedals just so; that'll make the back end skid or hop and skip and does slow you down. It's fun, but it's not anywhere near as effective as a front brake. You can shed speed by simply resisting the pedals, but that's awkward, not fun, and associated with knee problems.

If you're a big strong boy who likes his protein shakes there's probably a lot of KGs pushing down on that rear wheel so skip/skidding is going to be harder. Nuts to stem stuff. Best practiced away from traffic. I suggest a wet grass until you get a feel for it.



With. a. brake.

so automatically because Im asking question about a fixed gear bike I get grief? I have no problem using brakes and I intend using multi gear bikes also. I will not be getting yellow/purple deep rims, saying Im strong is not boasting its just a fact/the result from lifting heavy weights, I dont use protein shakes either.

niceonetom

Grief? I had no idea powerlifters were so delicate.

Lumen

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

so automatically because Im asking question about a fixed gear bike I get grief? I have no problem using brakes and I intend using multi gear bikes also. I will not be getting yellow/purple deep rims, saying Im strong is not boasting its just a fact/the result from lifting heavy weights, I dont use protein shakes either.

I think the source of the grief might be the ambivalent attitude to brakes, not the fixed drivetrain.

I'm not giving you grief, you scare me. But FWIW, muscle is heavy and mass is what stops you from stopping.

kumate_champ07

niceonetom wrote: »

Grief? I had no idea powerlifters were so delicate.

not delicate, just dont appreciate the condescending attitude

Im not a powerlifter, I cycle more often now then have gym sessions. lifting weights doesnt have to be a macho thing either

niceonetom

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

lifting weights doesnt have to be a macho thing either

And either does cycling - the attachment you have to big gears is though. Pushing a big gear will not make you faster, it'll just make your legs slower.

kumate_champ07

niceonetom wrote: »

And either does cycling - the attachment you have to big gears is though. Pushing a big gear will not make you faster, it'll just make your legs slower.

interesting concept

blorg

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

Im definitely going to have a front brake but is a back break needed? wont it just become a habit using it all the time when its easier? or is it easier?

Im very low on cash so 16t is all I can use for a week or 2, it came with the hub. likewise with the chainring.

I have no problem taking off from a standing stop, I stay seated too. just asking for advice on stopping techniques. I have plenty of strength already from powerlifitng

If you have no aversion to brakes I don't know why you think there is a question to answer. I presume you ride a geared bike? You stop a fixed bike in exactly the same way, by pulling the brake.

You don't NEED a rear brake but if the bike will take one I would prefer to have it, it is useful to slow you on descents and invaluable in slippy conditions where the front brake could cause you to crash. Two of my fixed bikes have rear brakes; my track bike won't take one so it doesn't.

It is no harm to know how to do a skid stop and it is fun but as others have said not half as efficient at stopping as a front brake. Good to know how though in case you snap your front brake cable, etc. I skidded a fair bit when I had hard nasty tyres on but if you have decent tyres you will just shred them skidding; I destroyed a reasonably new GP4000 with a single stop... never again.

steinone

As regarding stopping and cycling fixed generally the rule of thumb is to use good foot retention, clipless pedals, clips and straps etc.
You have better control, much easier when spinning and it aids power along with a list of other things.
If you're looking for more fixed specific help try : http://dublinfgss.com

Golfanatic

http://www.planet-x-bikes.co.uk/i/q/HUOOLF/on-one-large-flangetrack-hub
solves the gear problem, its got one on each siide and it cheap
and a tip for skid stoping lean foraward closer to bars and stem and good leg up towards chest andother leg down, pull and push. push with bad leg and pull with good leg

steinone

I dont think the problem was with gearing, he cant afford another cog for a little while to sort out the gearing.

Golfanatic

no its just so he can swithc between commute and track he mentioned it at the start

Doc_Savage

no its just so he can swithc between commute and track he mentioned it at the start

i believe that was el tonto that mentioned that?

Anyway, practice, do as stein and blorg say and get a brake or straps or better still both... or gtfo to put it bluntly!

straps will help no end. if you're new to fixed then you might get unexpected pedalstrike cornering or while near a kerb and the straps will keep you in better contact with the bike rather than getting kicked off it!

As for gearing. I have (in ratio terms) 44:15 with a brake and 48:19(or 21 for polo) without a brake. they require different riding styles and i only go brakeless for pleasure.. around town i would like the benefit of the panic handle being there just in case!

it's mick

50 16 for anything other than the track, with or without breaks is a terrible idea. it's going to rape your knees regardless of how much weight training you do. i know you don't have money but in the long run you really should go to a lower gear. your knees will thank you when you do.

gamgsam

If your budget is that limited, get your front brake sorted and GET YOURSELF STRAPS!

Now that you can stop, off you go... I have a similar gear (52/18) and im able to manage panic stops without a back brake. It'll take a good week to get your sea legs for skidding though, not that skidding is the aim, just a helpful step in learning to stop a fixie

Take it easy for a while and your legs won't hurt after. Better to spin from a stop than to mash and kill yourself, you'll eventually get the same top speed anyway.

kumate_champ07

it's mick wrote: »

50 16 for anything other than the track, with or without breaks is a terrible idea. it's going to rape your knees regardless of how much weight training you do. i know you don't have money but in the long run you really should go to a lower gear. your knees will thank you when you do.

ye my knees are sore again, just went out for groceries so only a short cycle. acceleration is fine, its the slowing down thats slowly killing my knees, I dont feel it till midway.

I think Ill stick to a high gear on my single speed and geared bike, might put on the 17t freewheel on the flipside till I get a different fixed cog. I find my knees hurt when Im running even tho my cardiovascular system can keep going, my height and weight puts enough stress on my knee joints I should have none with cycling!

DirkVoodoo

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

I find my knees hurt when Im running even tho my cardiovascular system can keep going, my height and weight puts enough stress on my knee joints I should have none with cycling!

Pushing too big a gear will do just as much damage, I think you are right to go with the spinning route. It feels odd at first pushing a high cadence but it's good practice and certainly better for you than mashing. Keep an eye on your speeds for comparison, I think a lot of people are surprised when they see they can go faster spinning, there is definitely a perception that mashing a big gear = strong = faster.

Golfanatic

another large contender to knee sores is a chain that is to tight. there should be atleast a small drop in it or something like an inch of up and downess lol

Greyspoke

Golfanatic wrote: »

another large contender to knee sores is a chain that is to tight. there should be atleast a small drop in it or something like an inch of up and downess lol

I'm curious to know why a tight chain might lead to sore knees? Thanks.

kumate_champ07

Golfanatic wrote: »

another large contender to knee sores is a chain that is to tight. there should be atleast a small drop in it or something like an inch of up and downess lol

what kind of advice is that? my chain tension is fine, inch up or down and you'll have it slip off

I need a shorter bottom bracket so I can have a more straight chainline, prob need a new crank, running a double now but only have 1 chainring available and its on the outside, the bolt diameter size is obsolete so cant really find a smaller chainring for the inside.

Golfanatic

@kumate-champ07
sorry its kind of hard to explain how tight it should be but it isnt far off. you have to have it tight enough so that it doesnt bind. and a crooked chainline shouldnt add to knee sores unless it is causing the drive train to bind

@greyspoke if you chain is too tight the drivetrain locks up by the iperfections in the chainring where it is not perfectly round. causing you knees/legs to lock up its more causes problem not too sure if it makes them sore.

blorg

Binding causes stress to bearings on the bike. It does nothing to your knees.

Golfanatic

oh thanks blorg someone told me once that it was bad for your knees to have your chain too tight but i just assumed it was that. the guy knew alot about bikes to.

Greyspoke

blorg wrote: »

Binding causes stress to bearings on the bike. It does nothing to your knees.

That's what I thought was probably the case. Slightly off-topic, but can someone point me in the direction of a link to sorting out the problem of tight spots on a fixie chain. I saw reference to it here before but can't remember where. Thanks.

Lumen

Greyspoke wrote: »

That's what I thought was probably the case. Slightly off-topic, but can someone point me in the direction of a link to sorting out the problem of tight spots on a fixie chain. I saw reference to it here before but can't remember where. Thanks.

Maybe Sheldon.

Golfanatic

just loosen the chain until it doesnt

kumate_champ07

well I learned my lesson, brakes are important. first accident was this morning on my way to the train station, came around the bend too wide as I was wary of my pedal striking the ground, too fast and front brake didnt slow me down, rim doesnt have a good braking surface, hit the curb and flew forward banging my knees, right shoulder and chin off the ground,

people ran over but I got up straight away and said I was fine, checked the wheels and frame, amazingly everything was in 1 piece except for the front light. I didnt even get an adrenaline rush so felt ok to keep cycling.
It was a nice peacefull crash, was prepared for the worst and just braced myself, the relief of not braking any bones or knocking out teeth was nice

later on in the day was cycling home thru the city and a jeep was pulling out a good bit ahead of me, I was going pretty fast and anticipated it to be turned fully by the time I got to it, hit the front brake and then by the time I got close it pulled off and I went into a lamp post! stayed on the bike tho, wasnt a bad one but people saw me and I felt like an idiot.

so fitted back brakes, new front wheel and new tyres. I might not be lucky next time so I should be as safe as possible, city roads can be unpredictable and you need to be able to stop quickly/safely!

Moreofthatjazz

errr.. about that gear choice... sounds like you might need to think about toning it down a little... you'll have more control of the back end... once you get yer balance right it'll be easier to step it up again but by the sounds of it your bike is dictating all the motion...

Lumen

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

so fitted back brakes, new front wheel and new tyres. I might not be lucky next time so I should be as safe as possible, city roads can be unpredictable and you need to be able to stop quickly/safely!

There are apparently courier types who manage to ride brakeless for years without incident, but they must have incredible skills of anticipation and collision avoidance.

Couldn't do it myself, I know my limitations too well.

Moreofthatjazz

re. tightspots on the chain... check you're chainline... if its a little off the chain will pull tight at certain points also make sure the sprocket is aligned exactly with with chainring ie. the axle is parallel in the dropouts...

blorg

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

so fitted back brakes, new front wheel and new tyres.

Do you have a good working front brake now? That is a lot more important than the back brake.

Sorry to hear of the crashes, glad they sound not too serious.

kumate_champ07

Lumen wrote: »

There are apparently courier types who manage to ride brakeless for years without incident, but they must have incredible skills of anticipation and collision avoidance.

Couldn't do it myself, I know my limitations too well.

they also break red lights and make other illegal road maneuvers

kumate_champ07

blorg wrote: »

Do you have a good working front brake now? That is a lot more important than the back brake.

Sorry to hear of the crashes, glad they sound not too serious.

the front brake was fine, new pads and set up properly but had a chrome rim which does not work well with brakes! got a nice rim on the front now with good braking surface

bought a 19t cog today, made a huge difference. the reason my knees were hurting is the saddle is too low and the pedals are too far back on my soles, pretty much under my foot arch, so that and not being able to fully extend my legs made the knee pain alot worse. the seatpost is stuck pretty good and wont budge but managed to move the saddle back a bit and its improved my riding position

was tempted to put my 17t freewheel on but bought a 19t cog instead, that was the highest they had but its a noticeable improvement