Why be a Barrister?

jimmylawman

Looking for a bit of balance here.

I've been toying with the idea of becoming a barrister for a few years and more particularly in the last few months. I like politics, public speaking and I have a good head for information. I have bachelor and masters degrees in the engineering area and have worked in industry for some time.

The barrister career path appeals to me. As an outlet for my softer skills and as something that combines them with a methodical academic approach.

Thing is, anyone I've spoken to starts the conversation with "It's only fair you hear both sides" and proceeds to talk about the difficulties, how hard it is to get work, how few barristers ever succeed, and generally a lot of doom and gloom.

I accept these caveats however it is amazing nobody has yet highlighted a good side. I presume there must be one?! Otherwise why do hundreds of people every year go down the Kings Inns and embark on this course of study. I know economic times are hard now but I am looking more at the long term. Has anyone any words of encouragement at all?!

Thanks

FreudianSlippers

jimmylawman wrote: »

Looking for a bit of balance here.

I've been toying with the idea of becoming a barrister for a few years and more particularly in the last few months. I like politics, public speaking and I have a good head for information. I have bachelor and masters degrees in the engineering area and have worked in industry for some time.

The barrister career path appeals to me. As an outlet for my softer skills and as something that combines them with a methodical academic approach.

Thing is, anyone I've spoken to starts the conversation with "It's only fair you hear both sides" and proceeds to talk about the difficulties, how hard it is to get work, how few barristers ever succeed, and generally a lot of doom and gloom.

I accept these caveats however it is amazing nobody has yet highlighted a good side. I presume there must be one?! Otherwise why do hundreds of people every year go down the Kings Inns and embark on this course of study. I know economic times are hard now but I am looking more at the long term. Has anyone any words of encouragement at all?!

Thanks

I can't speak for the full thing... yet. I'm on the tail end of 2.5 months of formative examinations at the King's Inns. However, I will tell you that so far I do not regret it in the slightest. I absolutely LOVE the taste we get of being a barrister. The advocacy in classes, the mock trials, everything we've done so far has affirmed my decision.

That being said I had previously heard all the doom and gloom about it as well. That doesn't seem to exist at the Inns so much - and I'm not quite sure why?!
It could be because all the lecturing staff are practicing barristers themselves who seem to genuinely love their jobs. Maybe because everyone in your class has the same mentality...
It could also be because that doom and gloom is a bit of bollox. Sure, it is tough to get jobs - but it is tough getting a good job as a solicitor too. Being a barrister seems to be more about what you put into it you will get out.
I've heard that the ones who are down there for years and still have no work are either shockingly bad barristers, or would rather swan around the place in the gown and go to the pub in the day and talk about how they are a barrister than actually work.

That being said, it depends on what your measure of success is. I'm sure very few succeed if your definition is "make a million quid a year"... but the same can be said for solicitors or any other profession.
I think if you get a good master and you put the work in you can make a more than comfortable amount of money. At least I hope so! lol.
I honestly have no idea how much money I will be making as a barrister but I thoroughly enjoy it so much that I hope that I can earn my potential by working as a barrister (alternatives being working in-house for someone or moving).

Another intersting thing that a judge mentioned to my group during the mock trials is that the barristers coming out of the King's Inns in the past few years are more prepared for being barristers than previously. According to him there was no entrance exam and very little exit exams. He essentially said he and others had no idea what they were doing until they did it incorrectly.
I'd imagine the extensive (yet still not perfect) training they are doing for us at the Inns this year will really help us when we get out - even if 50% of the things we do are theoretically correct, yet never actually done in practice.

I realise to many it is a lot of money to go to the King's Inns, but if you feel that being a barrister is right for you then I say go for it. Get a good master and work in it for a few years. If it doesn't work out, there are plenty of other options for barristers these days that didn't exist before (eg in-house legal etc.). Plus I do think there is a fairly straightforward way to become a solicitor once you are a barrister also.
I never listened to the doom and gloomers and thus far do not regret it.

jimmylawman

OisinT thanks a lot for that positive feedback. I tend to have the same attitude. I've done a lot of things in life already that didn't come easy and I'm minded to take the same approach here. I don't expect it to fall on my lap. I just want a reasonable expectation that if I put the work in it will come good in the end. Like you I think I will really enjoy the nature and type of work too.

While I would be intent on entering practice too, the training also looks like a very good foundation for many things in life if one does end up deviating down the line.

Tom Young

I would agree with not listening to the doom and gloomers although conditions are rough. It's not for the faint hearted or those who are work shy.

subrosa

I agree the positives outweigh the negatives. As you say, even if you dont join the Library the BL will look very good on a CV.

johnnyskeleton

jimmylawman wrote: »

I accept these caveats however it is amazing nobody has yet highlighted a good side.

Usually those that highlight the good side are drowned out by those calling them unrealistic or accusing them of pimping grind courses on this forum.

The generally accepted good and bad points to barristerring are:

Good:
1) self employed / can't be fired / make your own hours
2) variety of work
3) eat what you kill
4) lawyerrin is an interesting job
5) wear a wig without drawing insults

Bad:
1) no steady income / can easily fall out of favour with solicitor
2) can get pigeon-holed in an area you have no interest in
3) sometimes don't get paid
4) lawyerrin is hard work
5) you can be on call 24/7

Words of encouragement: many of the top senior counsel now started in the height of the 70s/80s recession and that never stopped them. You don't have to be a bit leftfield to be a barrister, but it helps. Girls love a bit of wig. Whenever you skive off to the pub in the afternoon, your boss is always there with you.

FreudianSlippers

At the end of the day you have to do what you enjoy. I love the courts, I enjoy being in them and I enjoy the collegiality between barristers, devils and even the Inns students.
Plus I'd hate to be stuck in an office all day.

I take everything people say about being a barrister with a grain of salt. I want to do it, so I'm doing it. When people tell me there is no work and I won't make any money, I just take that as a challenge to prove them wrong or at least try. If they're right, they're right... but it will never be because they scared me from going ahead to the bar.

maidhc

I'm surprised at how few barristers actively approach solicitors looking for work. I meet engineers, bankers, and various other professions regularly, but never a barrister who claims they can do something good and do it for the right price.

Maybe it is tradition or whatnot, but times they are a changin'.

Tom Young

maidhc wrote: »

I'm surprised at how few barristers actively approach solicitors looking for work. I meet engineers, bankers, and various other professions regularly, but never a barrister who claims they can do something good and do it for the right price.

Maybe it is tradition or whatnot, but times they are a changin'.

Well the rules are the rules and personally while it does have its down sides, the taxi rank rule does work.

If you do decide to come to the Inns make absolutely sure you get involved in the mooting and debating. It is an enormous benefit to you in your formative assessments and also great fun.

jimmylawman

Thanks for the feedback. Some very good points. Another big plus for me is the varied and flexible work. I do not want to spend the rest of my life behind a desk.

The no marketing rules do puzzle me. What could be so wrong about knocking out a few business cards and networking at a few events? Or is that done?

maidhc

Tom Young wrote: »

Well the rules are the rules and personally while it does have its down sides, the taxi rank rule does work.

I'm just saying that if a young barrister was to approach a law firm offering to do motions for €x amount or whatnot they might get work. It might upset the incumbents a little, but if I was a newly qualified barrister sitting on my hands re-reading McMahon & Binchy for the nth time the status of the profession or the good of the members at large wouldn't concern me in the slightest.

Tom Young

maidhc wrote: »

I'm just saying that if a young barrister was to approach a law firm offering to do motions for €x amount or whatnot they might get work. It might upset the incumbents a little, but if I was a newly qualified barrister sitting on my hands re-reading McMahon & Binchy for the nth time the status of the profession or the good of the members at large wouldn't concern me in the slightest.

Your point is well made. The rules are the rules

maidhc

Tom Young wrote: »

Your point is well made. The rules are the rules

I didn't know canvassing for work amoungst the profession was a problem!

eagle_&_bear

maidhc wrote: »

I didn't know canvassing for work amoungst the profession was a problem!

Oh it is. Article 6 of the Code of Ethical Conduct is monitored very strictly! To the point that the Committee put out a circular to all members reminding them of the provisions as of July 2009

So flaunt the rules at your peril.

Remember, the Bar is quite a small grouping (approx 2300 members) and nothing spreads like good gossip and this kind of activity would spread in seconds and it would find its way to the Tribunal in no time. Whilst everyone wants more briefs and more work, and whilst everyone thinks of how you could go about getting more work, you'd have to be very careful about it

I'd sooner keep my practice certificate and not be the subject of a disciplinary notice.

Point in case, the most recent disciplinary notice on the front page of the Bar Council website.

jimmylawman

eagle_&_bear wrote: »

Oh it is. Article 6 of the Code of Ethical Conduct is monitored very strictly! To the point that the Committee put out a circular to all members reminding them of the provisions as of July 2009

So flaunt the rules at your peril.

Remember, the Bar is quite a small grouping (approx 2300 members) and nothing spreads like good gossip and this kind of activity would spread in seconds and it would find its way to the Tribunal in no time. Whilst everyone wants more briefs and more work, and whilst everyone thinks of how you could go about getting more work, you'd have to be very careful about it

I'd sooner keep my practice certificate and not be the subject of a disciplinary notice.

Point in case, the most recent disciplinary notice on the front page of the Bar Council website.

How does anyone look for work? How does the 'taxi queue' system work?

Jo King

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Words of encouragement: many of the top senior counsel now started in the height of the 70s/80s recession and that never stopped them. You don't have to be a bit leftfield to be a barrister, but it helps. Girls love a bit of wig. Whenever you skive off to the pub in the afternoon, your boss is always there with you.

This is the Kings Inns Student who made the following quote

"you can make an income in your first few years - if you get one JR, one trial on indictment or one junior brief in the HC/SC, you will make more money than your fees and your other practise expenses. You won't make much but it is an income, however inferior it may seem to you."

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055070993&page=11

who then refused to answer, after he was called just how many JRs, trials on indictment and junior briefs in the HC/SC he had secured.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055420399&page=3

evercloserunion

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Usually those that highlight the good side are drowned out by those calling them unrealistic or accusing them of pimping grind courses on this forum.

The generally accepted good and bad points to barristerring are:

Good:
1) self employed / can't be fired / make your own hours
2) variety of work
3) eat what you kill
4) lawyerrin is an interesting job
5) wear a wig without drawing insults

Bad:
1) no steady income / can easily fall out of favour with solicitor
2) can get pigeon-holed in an area you have no interest in
3) sometimes don't get paid
4) lawyerrin is hard work
5) you can be on call 24/7

Words of encouragement: many of the top senior counsel now started in the height of the 70s/80s recession and that never stopped them. You don't have to be a bit leftfield to be a barrister, but it helps. Girls love a bit of wig. Whenever you skive off to the pub in the afternoon, your boss is always there with you.

"eat what you kill" love it

johnnyskeleton

Jo King wrote: »

This is the Kings Inns Student who made the following quote
"you can make an income in your first few years - if you get one JR, one trial on indictment or one junior brief in the HC/SC, you will make more money than your fees and your other practise expenses. You won't make much but it is an income, however inferior it may seem to you."
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055070993&page=11
who then refused to answer, after he was called just how many JRs, trials on indictment and junior briefs in the HC/SC he had secured.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055420399&page=3

lol. when did i ever claim to be either of those things? When will you realise that what someone claims to be on the internet matters not a whit?

_JOE_

It's been three years since i read that thread. A long read, but thoroughly entertaining!

eagle_&_bear

jimmylawman wrote: »

How does anyone look for work? How does the 'taxi queue' system work?

You don't look for work per se.

This is where your devil year comes in. The relationship you have with your master is absolutely pivotal. You get to know various solicitors through your master. Ideally your master will give you the smaller motions in the beginning and you would be attended by the solicitor-so they see if you're any good or not. Then as you progress you do more serious and contentious motions and you get into the High Court (without your master) whilst fully attended. If you do well, then the solicitor will start talking to you about briefs s/he has and they ask your opinion and then they will send you a brief.

In the beginning, it is drip-fed but then if you do well and you are competent, then you become briefed more and more.

Now repeat that in as many solicitors firms as you can (initially through your master) then eventually other solicitors who hear you speak find out your name or stop you in the corridor and ask can you assist. You never say no and then you get your name out and about.

That's how its done. (unless you have contacts and if you do, then work those contacts!!). It is really a case (in the begining) of if you are good and you show good contact, competence and communication - work finds you. Word spreads quickly- some of your success is luck and being in the right spot at the right time but more of it has to do with your relationship with your master. If you're good at your job, you'll get noticed (before you realise)

partyguinness

As my old (deceased) mentor said..."Law would be far better only for having to deal with client's"...;)

As a solicitor, I would say I wish I could tell client's to get lost and stop ringing me. That is probably the one of the thinigs I envy about the Bar...not having to deal with the great unwashed.....:)..Barrister's dont have that problem...

johnnyskeleton

_JOE_ wrote: »

It's been three years since i read that thread. A long read, but thoroughly entertaining!

A long time ago indeed. I even agreed with dats_right on that thread!

Jo King

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

lol. when did i ever claim to be either of those things? When will you realise that what someone claims to be on the internet matters not a whit?

Who are you fooling? Why not be a man and admit that your exaggerated expectations, when a student at the Kings Inns, were not realised? You were not the firts and certainly won't be the last to labour under the same delusion.

dermot_sheehan

General rule its tough enough to succeed.

My advice as a third year whose gotten a small bit of work is to be there to do the small and difficult/boring bits of work when there is no body else available. As a junior barrister you are sought when there is no one else (solicitors know we don't have a lot on and are free), so be available to run into the masters court to get an adjournment in a debt collection matter or run up to court 52 to get a garry doyle order.

The soliciitor if he knows you are competent and reliable will send you more/better stuff. Remember a solicitor takes a risk everytime they brief someone new. If the new barrister prove to be unreliable or incompetent they will look poorly in front of clients and their colleagues in their firm.

Be confident with clients and solicitors, but always double check things yourself.

Contacts from college/family sometimes make things easier.

The hard bit is constantly coming in with nothing on just to drink coffee in hanlys. Have a project like writing a book to keep you occupied,

Can't think of any other words of wisdom.

dats_right

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

A long time ago indeed. I even agreed with dats_right on that thread!

I had to re-read that thread just to see that for myself! I couldn't believe my eyes..:D

Anyway, Johnny, this thread reminded me of all of the old sparring matches we used to have on these sort of threads vis-a-vis the propsects for the legal profession; and without wishing to re-ignite same, I think that it is probably fair to say that my doom and gloom predictions from 2-3 years ago were nearer to the mark in terms of the situation that presently pertains than your more optimistic views from that time. Nevertheless, whilst I was bursting to offer my tuppence worth on this thread, I thought it best to keep my counsel on the matter (pardon the pun!).

johnnyskeleton

Jo King wrote: »

Who are you fooling? Why not be a man and admit that your exaggerated expectations, when a student at the Kings Inns, were not realised? You were not the firts and certainly won't be the last to labour under the same delusion.

When did I ever claim to be male? You are assuming I'm a barrister but why couldn't I be a barristerette?

I'm truly flattered that you have gone to such lengths to create an entire academic and professional life for me, but there are two problems with this:

1) what's your point - I though you were saying I was not to be believed because I wouldn't admit or deny any professional qualifications or experience? By suggesting that I do have such qualifications, are you not shooting yourself in the foot?

2) suppoing I were a barrister as you say and I admitted same, I could make one of the following observations (I'll assume for the purposes of this thread that since you appear to be suggesting I was a student in Kings Inns in 2007 that in this fictitous career the barrister is currently in his (or her!) second year of practice):

a) Life at the bar is beyond my wildest expectations - I get a lot of great work, earn more than the average industrial wage and come into the law library every day with a spring in my step;
b) Life at the bar is great - I get a fair bit of work and it is hard work, but I also get paid around average industrial wage and I find it all very interesting;
c) Life at the bar is good - I don't get a lot of work and when I do it is very hard with often no chance of being paid, but I get enough to live on (supplimented by lecturing - to dats_right) and so I'm content at the moment;
d) Life at the bar is tough - but I realise that I'm in it for the long haul and shouldn't get discouraged. I am not getting much work now but it takes a few years to build up a practice and a reputation and I was aware of that before I started;
e) Life at the bar is an absolute misery - there is no work, no money and no prospects, i'd be better off on the dole and wish I hadn't become a barrister because I'm now drowning in debt.

I'm sure there are as many attitudes as there are young barristers (put 10 lawyers in a room and you'll get 20 opinions, ho ho ho) but the above five would give a good selection of the various types of attitude out there (if I were a betting man, I'd say c) and d) are the most prevalent).

Now, if I came on here and said (which I am not saying) that I was a barrister and that my view of the bar was a), b), c), or d) you would probably not believe me, as you are determined that I should say e). Put another way, from your point of view e) is the only possible truthful answer.

Moreover, just because I say I am something, this neither makes my views more or less valid because I could lie about having such qualifications, OR I could tell the truth about qualifications but lie about life at the bar. It also strikes me as intellectually lazy to believe one person over another merely because the former asserts to be more highly qualified.

dats_right wrote: »

I had to re-read that thread just to see that for myself! I couldn't believe my eyes..:D

I couldn't believe it either.

dats_right wrote: »

Anyway, Johnny, this thread reminded me of all of the old sparring matches we used to have on these sort of threads vis-a-vis the propsects for the legal profession; and without wishing to re-ignite same, I think that it is probably fair to say that my doom and gloom predictions from 2-3 years ago were nearer to the mark in terms of the situation that presently pertains than your more optimistic views from that time. Nevertheless, whilst I was bursting to offer my tuppence worth on this thread, I thought it best to keep my counsel on the matter (pardon the pun!).

I don't agree. Would it be a fair summary to suggest that your view was that work was drying up all over and that it was becoming very difficult (if not impossible) to survive as a lawyer, while my view was that although some big areas were closing off, others were improving (in particular litigation, insolvency, examinership etc)?

If so, then I accept that the level of unemployment among young solicitors and the drop in new qualifications has been higher than I expected. However, you might admit that the drop off for barristers has been a lot less than expected, with still more than twice as many coming into the bar as leaving it (link)?

In terms of the level of work, litigation is up in many areas, so while legal aid and prosecution fees have been cut, the overall level of fees paid has increased due to increased number of prosecutions (although we won't see until next year the effects of the DPP's scaling back on indictable prosecutions). Insolvency, examinership, receivership, mortgage repossession, bankruptscy, debt collection etc are all growth areas and while there is a greater risk of the client side not paying, there is still work and money there to be made. Employment and L&T issues are up. Ok, Family law is in the doldrums but overall the level of litigation work is increasing (both in terms of volume and complexity).

Specifically, an issue was raised as regards personal injuries cases, and I cited the courts service report as authority for the proposition that personal injuries cases were starting to come back. Since then the number of personal injuries cases in the high court have increased 8% from 07 to 08 (2007 - 5,951 /2008 - 6,466 / source 2008). Another interesting statistic is the c. 20% increase in circuit court civil cases (from c. 30k to 36k). This figure is perhaps more relevant from the point of view of junior junior counsel and general practice solicitors.

So on what I might call the flashpoint of disagreement between us i.e. the number of personal injury cases being issued has increased as of the last update. Then there are the examinership/insolvency cases and the new scandals brewing to keep lawyers busy (NAMA, Anglogate, flooding).

I'm prepared to call it a 1-1 draw at half time but I would like to hear you cite specific divergences of opinion between us (representative of that debate rather than rehashing every point) and how your views are nearer to the mark than mine. Insofar as it is relevant to this topic (and the other thread ) I think I have the advantage in that the points I made in relation to litigation and practice at the bar are closer to the truth than the comments you made (although I accept that you were probably closer on with the solicitors side). I also think that many of the problems for solicitors are not due to the reduced volume of work so much as the increased costs and, dare I say it, imprudent property investment choices.

Jo King

I wonder what you are trying to obscure with a long post. You claimed to be a student in the Kings Inns. You claimed to be male. You claimed to be a barrister etc. Now you suggest you might have been lying. Of course you might. What I asked is; who do you think you are fooling?

johnnyskeleton

Jo King wrote: »

I wonder what you are trying to obscure with a long post.

Nothing. The point is that it's an anonymous forum.

Jo King wrote: »

You claimed to be a student in the Kings Inns.

Link?

Jo King wrote: »

You claimed to be male.

Link?

Jo King wrote: »

You claimed to be a barrister etc.

Link?

Jo King wrote: »

Now you suggest you might have been lying.

You are the one who suggested I was those things. I never stated that I was any of them. Even now, you seem to have enormous difficult distinguishing between two fairly easily distinguishable concepts.

"On an anonymous forum, anyone could lie" is completely different to "On this forum, I might have been lying".

Jo King wrote: »

Of course you might. What I asked is; who do you think you are fooling?

About what? You have this idea that I am some sort of failed barrister who has embarked on a propaganda campaign to suggest that barristerring is the greatest and easiest profession in the world. You also seem intent on proving this by making up a fictitous biography of me. To what end I don't know, nor do I care, but I would appreciate it that if you are going to attack my posts that you at least stick to their contents.

eagle_&_bear

can we maybe leave the personality clashes to one side and come back to the focus of the thread ?