Heineken/Amlin Semi Finals Discussion.

thomond2006

As suggested by Toom:

Heineken Cup

Toulouse vs Leinster, Saturday 1 May, 16:45 (local time)

Biarritz vs Munster, Sunday 2 May 16:15 (local time)

Amlin Challenge Cup

London Wasps vs Cardiff, TBA

Connacht vs Toulon, TBA

IMO Munster have the easier draw, but I still fancy an All-Ireland final in Paris.

I can't see Connacht beating Toulon. Wasps will beat Cardiff and lose to Toulon in the final I'd say.

castie

Cant shake a deja vu feeling.
Two Irish provinces in semi's with both against french opposition.
hopefully it wont end the same

Chucky the tree

All french final. Leinster are really up against it in and I don't like the match ups in the Biarittiz match.

castie

Would be fitting revenge for an All Ireland final in Paris after an All french final in Dublin.

outwest

my predictions are toulouse munster final,

leinster can win there. but it is a awful difficult task, should be a cracker.




and connacht wasp final in the challenge.

maherro

Toulouse - Leinster:
As with the Clermont match this one (imo) is very tough to call. I wasn't overly impressed with toulouse in the first half yesterday - it took them a while to get up to speed with the match, and the stade defense at times just wasn't up to scratch. However Leinster need to get their arses into gear defensively as well. Thats what will decide this match. Defense.

Biarritz - Munster
Munster. I expect Earls and deVilliers to get plenty of change out of the Biarritz midfield though this whole theory is made on the basis of 2 assumptions

1) POC plays. I know the pack played well against the saints but I feel that when POC is on the whole munster team play better he just knows how to get the best out of them. If he had played on sat the Saints pack would have been destroyed even more then it was and their lineout would have been under much more pressure

2) The Biarritz backrow is kept under wraps. I don't know how they're going to manage this one tbh!

Connacht-Toulon
Connacht - no reason Just a gut feeling!

[Jackass]

Hey heart says Leinster but....

To be honest, (and with all due respect, just expressing an opinion here, not stirring sh*t), I think that the 3 strongest sides in the competition were made up of the Leinster side of the quarter final draw.

I think Clermont were the best team in the cup and have now been eliminated. Home advantage to Toulouse will probably help a lot.

I think the winner of the trophy will come from the game in Toulouse, but I think Munster will make the final. Maybe sour grapes, but I think Leinster were desperately unlucky in the draw and I think Munster got a handy one. (/jealous)

Oh, and Cardiff in the Amlin. Obviously would love Connacht, but anyone but Chelsea, please!!!

molloyjh

Agree Leinster have the toughest semi of the two. I was encouraged by the first half yesterday. Leinster are well capable of a massive defence and that looked to work well against Toulouse. My only concern is that we haven't looked as dangerous going foward lately. We need that attacking edge as no matter how good our defense Toulouse will score points. Taking the one or two opportunities that come our way isn't good enough.

I think Munster should have the beating of Biarritz tbh. But then you never really know. There's no guarantees in either game.

Here's hoping for an all Ireland final in Paris. How magical would that be!?

As for Connacht I don't see them beating Toulon. But then I didn't see them running us as close as they did in the RDS a couple of weeks ago. I'd love to see them progress to the final. I'd say the winner of that game will go on to win the final.

phog

[Jackass] wrote: »

Hey heart says Leinster but....

To be honest, (and with all due respect, just expressing an opinion here, not stirring sh*t), I think that the 3 strongest sides in the competition were made up of the Leinster side of the quarter final draw.

I think Clermont were the best team in the cup and have now been eliminated. Home advantage to Toulouse will probably help a lot.

I think the winner of the trophy will come from the game in Toulouse, but I think Munster will make the final. Maybe sour grapes, but I think Leinster were desperately unlucky in the draw and I think Munster got a handy one. (/jealous)

Oh, and Cardiff in the Amlin. Obviously would love Connacht, but anyone but Chelsea, please!!!

Maybe, but Leinster rode their luck on Friday night and in the Pool games (4 wins and still managed to get a home QF), will they get another bite of the Lucky Charm?

frankie2shoes

Would really like to see an all ireland final (and not just cos i got tickets:)), but really don't think its gonna happen. Leinster have not been outstanding this year. their performances lack something. things almost come together. how many nearly tries this year, with great build ups and one botched kick/pass/catch destroying all the hard work. As I've said before -a certain lack of cohesion, that we should have by this stage of the season.
But ya never know. we've done it before.
Toulouse are definitely favourites going in, and the irish like to be underdogs.
Maybe, just maybe.
I think Munster will beat Biarritz. they seem to be improving every game building nicely, and with O'Connel back (hopefully)we just might squeeze it.
I believe connaught will win because it seems the players believe they will. they looked capable the rds a couple of weeks back and thats all I have to go on as I didn't see them play much apart from that.
C'MON DE PROVINCES (AND ESPECIALLY LEINSTER!!!)

maherro

I don't buy this line that Leinster don't look good going forward. After the third CA try on friday night we were right on their line. We can and do play some very nice rugby but we just didn't see it too often on Friday.

RuggieBear

Think Toulouse will destroy us tbh. think they will wear us down eventually and score a heap in the last 20mins. Mind you if any team can keep tackling it's leinster but I didn't like waht i saw on Friday with our usually decent defence having a torrid time.

Think Biaritz should beat Munster at "home" but the amount of times the ospreys ran through the centres makes me think that JDV and Earls could have huge games and I can't see munster letting as many line breaks go unpunished as the Ospreys wasted. So i'm leaning towards munster tbh.

Final...probably Munster

/Awaits a biaritz leinster final lol

thomond2006

Paddy Power fancies a Toulouse vs Munster final:

Toulouse 1-2 vs 13-8 Leinster

Biarritz 21-20 vs 4-5 Munster

Stev_o

thomond2006 wrote: »

Paddy Power fancies a Toulouse vs Munster final:

Toulouse 1-2 vs 13-8 Leinster

Biarritz 21-20 vs 4-5 Munster

Ill cry of we get Munster vs Toulouse final god that was a bore fest for the neutral both sides refused to play.

sock puppet

Toulouse and Biarritz have to be favourites. Leinster are really up against it, and if Toulouse play to their potential it'll take something special to beat them.

As for Munster, they don't have the ability to create the chances the Ospreys did. They'll provide much more of a challenge up front though, and Earls and JDV are a great centre pairing. I think we'll see a very different game to the one in the quarter finals.

irishbucsfan

RuggieBear wrote: »

Think Toulouse will destroy us tbh. think they will wear us down eventually and score a heap in the last 20mins. Mind you if any team can keep tackling it's leinster but I didn't like waht i saw on Friday with our usually decent defence having a torrid time.

I didn't think that at all. Thought they defended well against arguably the best team in the competition. Two of the three Clermont tries were lucky.

Not that Leinster were good, just that I don't think our defense was worrying.


If any team in the competition can beat Toulouse, it's Leinster. The game probably would've been better as the final.

outwest

what try were lucky. clermont presured leinster into making the mistakes.


leinster need to up their game big time if there gonig to make it to the final.

toulouses back 3 are equally as good as clermont

i dont agree that leinster will get destroyed. it will be close but leinster need to improve their dicipline. and have their team fully fit

[Jackass]

As with Munster v Leinster last year would have been a better final.

It's tough to find any weakness in the Toulouse team.

I think IN Toulouse, Leinster are the only team in the competition that could beat them (and are the only team in Heineken Cup history to do that also - in the knock-out stages stadium), but Munster could possibly take Toulouse in a final with more Munster than Toulouse support, even if the game is in Paris, so they've done well to avoid them until a possible final. But if Leinster beat Toulouse, we MUST win the cup, regardless of who we play..

Stev_o

Munster's main foe is the heat, they ll be pray for a cold miserable day against BO.

castie

[Jackass] wrote: »

As with Munster v Leinster last year would have been a better final.

It's tough to find any weakness in the Toulouse team.

I think IN Toulouse, Leinster are the only team in the competition that could beat them (and are the only team in Heineken Cup history to do that also - in the knock-out stages stadium), but Munster could possibly take Toulouse in a final with more Munster than Toulouse support, even if the game is in Paris, so they've done well to avoid them until a possible final. But if Leinster beat Toulouse, we MUST win the cup, regardless of who we play..

6/5/00 15:45 SF Toulouse 25 - 31 Munster Stade Chaban Delmas 28,000 More

Munster beat them in the semi's in 00

[Jackass]

That was over 10 years ago, they play their big games in the Stade Municipal, Toulouse now.

Only game they've ever lost there is to Leinster.

http://www.ercrugby.com/eng/12_4919.php

castie

[Jackass] wrote: »

That was over 10 years ago, they play their big games in the Stade Municipal, Toulouse now.

Only game they've ever lost there is to Leinster.

http://www.ercrugby.com/eng/12_4919.php

Im sorry but can you at least be precise when you are making claims like this....

First it was heineken cup history (which isnt so)

Now its the ONLY time toulose have ever lost a game at that stadium is to Leinster. I find that very hard to believe. Maybe you meant heineken cup or even knock out stages of the HEC but for the love of god say this and stop making outlandish claims that simply arent true.

The only season since 99/00 that toulouse did not play a group game at Stade Municipal was 06/07. So I fail to see your point of they play their big games there now. They have been doing for over 10 years...

Also might I add that they used that stadium for the quarters and group games so they couldnt use it for the semi final as was the rules at the time.

I assume because of the below scores that at this point you must be saying Leinster are the only team to beat toulouse

• Counting only knock out stage games
• Staged at the Stade Municipal

15/1/00 15:20 P2 Toulouse 14 - 19 Bath Rugby Stade Municipal, Toulouse
7/10/00 15:00 P3 Toulouse 22 - 32 Saracens Stade Municipal, Toulouse

Seems they have actually lost there before in the heineken cup group stages..

PhatPiggins

Stev_o wrote: »

Munster's main foe is the heat, they ll be pray for a cold miserable day against BO.

From an exhaustion point of view I'd agree. From a purely rugby point of view I'd like hard ground and clear sky's, Biarritz's defence had more holes in it then a collinder on saturday and Munsters backs are producing some delicious rugby this year.

Podge_irl

PhatPiggins wrote: »

From an exhaustion point of view I'd agree. From a purely rugby point of view I'd like hard ground and clear sky's, Biarritz's defence had more holes in it then a collinder on saturday and Munsters backs are producing some delicious rugby this year.

They're no Ospreys though with regards the backline. Hook was causing a lot of problems for Biarritz and Munster don't really have a similar sort of player. Earls will be vital to them I think, their backline looks awfully one-paced without him.

In contrast of course Munster's pack are leagues ahead of Ospreys.

[Jackass]

castie wrote: »

Im sorry but can you at least be precise when you are making claims like this....

First it was heineken cup history (which isnt so)

Now its the ONLY time toulose have ever lost a game at that stadium is to Leinster. I find that very hard to believe. Maybe you meant heineken cup or even knock out stages of the HEC but for the love of god say this and stop making outlandish claims that simply arent true.

The only season since 99/00 that toulouse did not play a group game at Stade Municipal was 06/07. So I fail to see your point of they play their big games there now. They have been doing for over 10 years...

Also might I add that they used that stadium for the quarters and group games so they couldnt use it for the semi final as was the rules at the time.

I assume before the below scores that at this point you must be saying Leinster are the only team to beat toulouse

• Counting only knock out stage games
• Staged at the Stade Municipal

15/1/00 15:20 P2 Toulouse 14 - 19 Bath Rugby Stade Municipal, Toulouse
7/10/00 15:00 P3 Toulouse 22 - 32 Saracens Stade Municipal, Toulouse

Seems they have actually lost their before in the heineken cup group stages..

lol

sock puppet

castie wrote: »

6/5/00 15:45 SF Toulouse 25 - 31 Munster Stade Chaban Delmas 28,000 More

Munster beat them in the semi's in 00

I've no idea if Toulouse have lost any other knockout games at home but that stadium's in Bordeaux

castie

sock puppet wrote: »

I've no idea if Toulouse have lost any other knockout games at home but that stadium's in Bordeaux

Aye, but my point is its not very clear what hes claiming to be fact here.

BoarHunter

outwest wrote: »

toulouses back 3 are equally as good as clermont

even better i think : Clerc ; Heymans; poitrenaud on the bench : Medard .

jauzion is on flying form ATM; Fritz is a world class outside center so i'm not sure who has the edge in the center.

BoarHunter

BoarHunter wrote: »

even better i think : Clerc ; Heymans; poitrenaud on the bench : Medard .

jauzion is on flying form ATM; Fritz is a world class outside center so i'm not sure who has the edge in the center.

Toulouse do I reckon. D'arcys been so-so.

The way to beat Toulouse is to piss Skrela off. It looks like he is easy to get to so if the Leinster forwards can do that he wont be able to unleash the backline.

BoarHunter

Deleted User wrote: »

Toulouse do I reckon. D'arcys been so-so.

The way to beat Toulouse is to piss Skrela off. It looks like he is easy to get to so if the Leinster forwards can do that he wont be able to unleash the backline.

the problem with this is that Skrela often swaps position with Jauzion so it will be tricky to target one player.

toomevara

Interesting article from Peter Bills in Today's indo arguing for the use of larger stadia for the semis...

Heineken Cup Semis Deserve Bigger Billing.

Peter Bills
Thursday April 15 2010

I remember the reaction last time. There I was, walking down a street in Toulouse, and the mobile rang. On the line was an irate ERC official who'd been incensed by a piece I'd written suggesting they ought to be broadening their horizons regarding the Heineken Cup.

Oh dear, look away now if you're from ERC. Because the point is even more relevant today than it was then, a few years ago.

It's an absolute nonsense that the two Heineken Cup semi-finals will be staged in Toulouse and San Sebastian. Toulouse v Leinster will be in the French club's backyard and Biarritz v Munster, in the Real Sociedad soccer stadium just across the border in the Spanish coastal city of San Sebastian.

A weekend out in Toulouse and San Sebastian for rugby fans? What on earth could be wrong with that, you may think. Well, what is wrong is exactly what was wrong several years ago. ERC is still not thinking big enough for this fantastic tournament.

By common consent, the quarter-finals of this year's Heineken Cup were perhaps the best ever. Classic matches, terrific contests, great locations. A friend of mine hired a private jet, took off on Friday afternoon for Dublin with a few friends and watched the Leinster-Clermont Auvergne classic.

They then flew down to northern Spain to see Biarritz the next day and afterwards, flew up to Toulouse to attend their match against Stade Francais on Sunday before returning to London. What a weekend and all thanks to the fabulous Heineken Cup.

In truth, 2010 won't be remembered as a classic for the Six Nations. But it almost certainly will be for the Heineken Cup, cementing its increasing reputation as one of the best rugby tournaments in the world.

So why the gripe at ERC? Simply this. Once again, they have missed a golden opportunity to showcase their tournament to a vastly wider audience.

'Le Stadium' in Toulouse holds about 37,000, San Sebastian around 32,000. That means that thousands of rugby supporters in both Ireland and France won't get anywhere near either stadium. They won't get a ticket.

Then there's the considerable army of general rugby fans who adore the game and would love to see a major event in this tournament. But again, they have been given no hope, no chance by the ERC's insistence that a toss of the coin should decree the venues of the semi-finals. And amazingly, they put no demands in place for the winning clubs fortunate to earn a home semi-final.

For example, had Leinster been successful, it ought to have been a stipulation of staging the semi-final that it was held at Croke Park, with its 80,000 capacity. In this case, it's an absolute nonsense firstly to give one club home-town advantage in the semi-finals and then let them choose a stadium with a capacity below 40,000.

I called this a golden opportunity lost and this is why: had ERC cast their eyes upon a broader vision, they could have made semi-final weekend a wondrous experience.

Had they staged both ties in Paris, one on Saturday evening with the other on Sunday afternoon, it would have been a weekend of unforgettable passion, emotion and shared experiences for rugby followers all across Europe.

lame

At 80,000, Stade de France has the capacity to handle all the interest there would have been for both ties.The last time I raised this point with ERC, the lame response was that the French fans won't come out to support in sufficient numbers, they won't travel.

Believe me, that view is now bunkum. Anyone who saw the thousands of French in Cardiff this year or attended the French Championship final in Paris last June would know that simply isn't the case. Trains were running back to Perpignan all night after their Championship final against Clermont.

It's time Heineken semi-finals were always played in stadiums big enough to handle the booming success of this event.

And why can't these semi-finals act as a showcase for rugby in Europe in general? Why not hire Barcelona's Nou Camp one year and stage both semis there? Or the San Siro in Milan, where Italy somehow found 80,000 interested in rugby last November for Italy v All Blacks.

It's time ERC showed greater confidence in expanding its event. After all, rugby can only be the winner.

thomond2006

Bourgoin just beat Toulouse 15 - 13.

How does this affect Toulouse's season / playoff fixture list?

Stev_o

thomond2006 wrote: »

Bourgoin just beat Toulouse 15 - 13.

How does this affect Toulouse's season / playoff fixture list?

They already qualified for the playoffs about 2 weeks ago.

Risteard

Stev_o wrote: »

They already qualified for the playoffs about 2 weeks ago.

Yeah, but they probably won't make the top 2 which means they have to play an extra game.

Stev_o

SBW is going to shred Connachts defence....

thomond2006

Risteard wrote: »

Yeah, but they probably won't make the top 2 which means they have to play an extra game.

Cheers, that's what I wanted to know.

tolosenc

I can see Munster slipping up in SS, but really, they should win it. On paper, and given current form, they are the superior team. Heat and pressure will play important roles I feel.

Leinster - Toulouse is way too close to call. Can't wait for it though. Toulouse aren't have a tremendous year in the Top 14, and their thumping win over SF sounds a lot more impressive that it is; SF were, and have been, awful this year. Leinster, I think, have the edge in the forwards, but it'll be in the backs that it'll be interesting. Leinster have struggled for the try bonus this year, which isn't good, as we'll need to be very creative to beat Stade.

Heart says Munster - Leinster in the final, head says Munster - Toulouse. Winner of Leinster-Toulouse will lift the Cup, I reckon...

thomond2006 wrote: »

Cheers, that's what I wanted to know.

Dependant on their next game, they could be away for the 1/4 final.

evysiren

winner TOULON I hope

thomond2006

Biarritz lost to Racing Metro so they won't qualify for the Top14 playoffs.

It's all about the HEC now for them.

2040

thomond2006 wrote: »

Biarritz lost to Racing Metro so they won't qualify for the Top14 playoffs.

It's all about the HEC now for them.

excellent....:eek:

I don't buy into this "Munster got the far easier draw" stuff. Biarritz in Spain on hard ground. Munster have very few backline players who are well suited to such conditions: Earls, JDV and Warwick. And now the Heineken Cup is the only tournament Biarritz have a stake in. It's a tough fixture whatever way you look at it.

crisco10

2040 wrote: »

excellent....:eek:

I don't buy into this "Munster got the far easier draw" stuff. Biarritz in Spain on hard ground. Munster have very few backline players who are well suited to such conditions: Earls, JDV and Warwick. And now the Heineken Cup is the only tournament Biarritz have a stake in. It's a tough fixture whatever way you look at it.

Earls, JDV, Warwick. Thats most of the outside backs then. And I think Howlett might like hard ground too! :rolleyes:

If Harinordoquy plays 7, the battle between him and wallace will be epic.

Will POC be fit?

2040

crisco10 wrote: »

Earls, JDV, Warwick. Thats most of the outside backs then. And I think Howlett might like hard ground too! :rolleyes:

If Harinordoquy plays 7, the battle between him and wallace will be epic.

Will POC be fit?

I should have said wingers. Dowling and Howlett are a bit flatfooted tbh. Ngwenya...isn't.

crisco10

2040 wrote: »

I should have said wingers. Dowling and Howlett are a bit flatfooted tbh. Ngwenya...isn't.

Ngwenya is scary alright. Looks weak(ish) in defense, but still such a threat with his pace.

chupacabra

2040 wrote: »

I should have said wingers. Dowling and Howlett are a bit flatfooted tbh. Ngwenya...isn't.

What are you on about? Howlett still has searing pace. I hate that people think he has all of a sudden gotten as slow as a donkey.

2040

chupacabra wrote: »

What are you on about? Howlett still has searing pace. I hate that people think he has all of a sudden gotten as slow as a donkey.

Ah come on.

thomond2006

OH PLEASE LET IT HAPPEN!

thomond2006

From The Sunday Times

April 18, 2010

Drama-filled cups show Test game is empty vessel

Stephen Jones, rugby correspondent

WE SAW the defeat of international rugby last weekend. By Sunday evening, two cup competitions had produced probably the most extraordinary spectacle the sport in Europe has seen. From San Sebastian to Limerick, Toulouse to High Wycombe, it had become a rout.
Can rugby’s world shift so profoundly from its familiar axis? Perhaps not, but an important process already in train can now be confirmed. International rugby has ceased to be the biggest game in town. The implications are huge. In terms of the intensity alone, it was extraordinary.

The matches between Biarritz and the Ospreys, between Leinster and Clermont Auvergne, were thunderous, each won by one point as desperate last-second drops at goal faded wide. In 90 minutes against Munster, the young Northampton side matured as much as they would normally in a season.

But if all eight quarter-finals in the Heineken Cup and the Amlin Cup were battles, they also snapped and crackled, there was an attacking devil to them. The grass down the tramlines out wide was well trodden. The brilliance of the extraordinary goal by Tottenham’s Danny Rose against Arsenal had its rugby equivalent in the 90-metre wonder try by Takudzwa Ngwenya, the American who plays on the wing for Biarritz.

There were mini-replicas in dozens of similar moves in both European cups — by Sunday, the pace had even increased, with the brilliant Toulouse v Stade Francçais encounter. We also saw Jonny Wilkinson inspiring Toulon to Amlin victory over the Scarlets and Wasps and Gloucester laying on another feast in their Amlin quarter-final.

We should ask exactly what the international game could offer to try and reclaim some of its old authority. Not much, except to lay bare the reasons for the decline and to butcher yet again the goose laying the golden egg. On one day, we had a press release about the superfluous Wales v South Africa match in Cardiff in June (Cardiff? June? Why?). Next day, the schedule for the 2011 RBS Six Nations was revealed, with the Wales v England game on a Friday evening, a piece of match-arranging by the Six Nations and the BBC bordering on a criminal offence. Too many Tests, too many bad times.

The club events are so much more accessible, and not only because the standard and pace of the games are so refreshing. Last weekend, there was fun and cultural frolics surrounding each game, despite the severity of the play. International rugby now is so pompous and po-faced, with too many extra anthems, too many false trappings, too much rigmarole. The players and the national team are no longer part of the rugby community when they are on national duty. They sit glumly behind the walls of their techno-palaces, waiting for weeks for the game to come around, emerging briefly for truncated media forays.

Last weekend in Limerick, however, if you had checked out Peter Clohessy’s bar, you could have rubbed shoulders with the Munster heroes and the Northampton contingent. At Wasps, the players of both sides mingled with spectators in the spring sunshine.

My impression is that the players on Euro cup duty are lapping up more
than the odd friendly beer — they are lapping up the freedom from bogus national constraints. Ronan O’Gara, dropped by Ireland, bossed the Munster tie with his old authority, James Hook was brilliant for the Ospreys, Damien Traille was his magnificent self for Biarritz, not the haunted hulk seen in the French jersey; Wilkinson launched attacks for Toulon and Danny Cipriani was wonderfully recognisable as his true self for Wasps.

And the supporters, who find that they can touch the jersey hems once again? While the numbers of travelling fans plummet for international matches, they are rising for the big European events.

The implications are enormous. The notorious Regulation 9 of the International Rugby Board grants primacy for international rugby; in other words, and within certain boundaries, clubs and provinces must always release players for their countries. The IRB has been terrified for years that this could be challenged successfully in court.

They are now discussing extending the regulation even further, compelling European clubs to release Argentinian players way out of season, so that they can play for their country in the newly formed Four Nations event. We all wish the best for Argentina but any extension of the primacy of international rugby would not only be dangerous, it would fly totally in the face of the progress and path of rugby itself, as was evidenced everywhere last weekend.

The truth is that there is no primacy any more and for the international game and the big unions to try and exert a crumbled old authority could cause a schism in the game.

The brave but outflanked Ospreys were by no means the only people floundering in the wake of the flying Takudzwa Ngwenya last weekend.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/rugby_union/article7100664.ece

The man talks sense for once.