Is it worth it to pay to become a Pilot if there's not alot of jobs available ?

pilotgirl

And what is the best way of becoming a pilot, being 16 im open to every option. Thanks

Andrew33

pilotgirl wrote: »

And what is the best way of becoming a pilot, being 16 im open to every option. Thanks

Of course it's worth it! I'd do it for the love of flying, not just as a potential job. It'll cost ya a few bob to get a licence but you'll always have it. Go for it!

andy_g

if your based in and around dublin or the surrounding areas you should price around. by going to some of the schools at weston talking to the instructors and booking an introduction flight. see what you think of the flight and ya might just catch the flying bug

A few of the schools based at weston are the national flight centre www.nfc.ie

skytrace
skytrace.ie

and flightwise
flightwise.ie

I hope these sites have some information for you.
Andy

donkey balls

do an intro lesson to see wether you like it after all you do about 150hrs in one to get your CPL, a mate of mine was telling me that he knew a lad that shelled out 80k to go to an intergrated school(he meet him while doing his ATPL) when he went to the USA to do the actual flying he could not hack it and was getting sick al the time.

jmayo

Intro flight is great idea, then medical and just get ppl.
If you pass Grade ! medical and really like flying then go ahead, but I think the idea of signing up for whole course at once is crazy.

Ken812

yeh i agree with that, just start off with getting your ppl and then go from there. The job scene isnt great so whats the mad rush, you can afford to take your time and enjoy your ppl...only happens once

Wile E. Coyote

What is the average cost for getting your pilots licence?

Paulyh

My cousin went to spain to do his commercial pilots training, took 18 months and AFAIK about €130,000, he finshed last december. No job yet.

Killinator

Theres not much in the line of jobs at the moment, but by the time you have actually gotten a CPL and everything else the airline industry could look completely different,
I'd go with most others here, get your intro done, if you like it go for your medical and assuming you pass then start a PPL and basically see how it goes from there.....and enjoy;)

InTheTrees

I paid to become a pilot and never had any intention of getting a job as one.

SO yes, its worth it.

pilotgirl

' but I think the idea of signing up for whole course at once is crazy '




ahh so you mean as in get each license as they come and not save up a whole load and do them altogether like ?

and is there good money for like full time employed cpl or atp pilots ?


And cheerss thanks a mill for your replys,x

jmayo

pilotgirl wrote: »

' but I think the idea of signing up for whole course at once is crazy '

ahh so you mean as in get each license as they come and not save up a whole load and do them altogether like ?

and is there good money for like full time employed cpl or atp pilots ?

And cheerss thanks a mill for your replys,x

How are you going to save anything upto €100,000 to get upto frozen ATPL in one go ?
BTW the days of easy unguaranteed cheap loans are over.

Do flight intro to see if you actually like being in the air, whether you get airsick, are you spatially aware, etc.
Then do basic medical to see if you will be medically ok.
Then start PPL.
Don't worry you will be getting into the saving habit.

If you want then go do PPL in states or some country with decent weather and where you can do concentrated flying.
Think of it as a holiday with lots of flying experience.

But why not finish school, try get into college and do something may be engineering related like Avionics or Aeronautical which gets you into the industry on the technical side.

Even if you don't want to do the technical side pick a career where you can get contract work down the line, because then you can work short term contracts and do intensive hour building and modullar exams in between.

Lots of people think of pilots as the guys they see in the movies flying A380 or 747s into some glamorous city like Paris or New York.
Lots of pilots spend years making a very basic living flying students around in shi*heaps or if they are lucky they get to fly twice a day into Preswick or Stanstead.

Anyway a few things to remember.
Do not ever pay huge amounts of money up front, there are countless stories of training operators going bust overnight. It happened in Waterford before.
Never believe the waffle that you will be guaranteed a job if you get your training with x or y.
The runway behind you and the sky above are not much use to you. It's the reverse.

cyrusdvirus

jmayo wrote: »

The runway behind you and the sky above are not much use to you. It's the reverse.

not meaning to be smart, but if the runway is above you, does that not mean you are either

Flying Upside Down Or After ploughing a big hole in the ground?

Neither of which would be particularly useful in a commercial a/c

castie

Unless you were filming an Airplane remake

pilotgirl

jmayo wrote: »

The runway behind you and the sky above are not much use to you. It's the reverse.

No i'm guessing it means the Behind and Above words reversed so that would mean the runway Below you and the sky Infront of you ! which makes sence haha


And yeah thanks a mill iv heard its a dodgey business if your in anyway sick your in **** basically so it would be good to be qualified in something in the same area.. would that be in the same area airline traffic controllers and the likes ?

I will definitely take it one step at a time though ! Thanks again,

InTheTrees

Just general advice but with the worlds economy in the crapper right now its a good time to get educated/qualified because job hunting is no fun and not very rewarding in the current climate.

But also having said that dont assume that just because a particular field isnt hireing right that it wont be in the future. Things are starting to improve.

donkey balls

InTheTrees wrote: »

Just general advice but with the worlds economy in the crapper right now its a good time to get educated/qualified because job hunting is no fun and not very rewarding in the current climate.

But also having said that dont assume that just because a particular field isnt hireing right that it wont be in the future. Things are starting to improve.

so if you manage to get a fATPL(250hr tt) when the airlines start hiring again who are they going take on first? the guys that have b737/757&a320 TR with a couple of thousand hours or someone with no TR/jet,t-prop experience.(unless you go to FR)
and were are the facts that things are starting to improve?

globemaster1986

donkey balls wrote: »

so if you manage to get a fATPL(250hr tt) when the airlines start hiring again who are they going take on first? the guys that have b737/757&a320 TR with a couple of thousand hours or someone with no TR/jet,t-prop experience.(unless you go to FR)
and were are the facts that things are starting to improve?

Well most airlines are reporting increased passenger numbers and revenues over last year, so thats a positive sign. Also many are beginging to restore routes/increase frequencies and so....

donkey balls

globemaster1986 wrote: »

Well most airlines are reporting increased passenger numbers and revenues over last year, so thats a positive sign. Also many are beginging to restore routes/increase frequencies and so....

here is a tip for yeah, how do you know when an economy/region is doing well? look at the big shipping companies air/sea/road&rail when their making profits and shares are up the economy is doing well.
the majority of airfreight exported/imported throughout the world is flown on pax airlines,when their yeilds are up(cargo only) you know the economy is doing ok because jobs are there/created through industries that ship their products all over the world.

Delancey

As I write this post I am watching the Michael Moore film '' Capitalism : a love story '', it need hardly be said that the whole film is an attack on Capitalism . Moore looked at the pay and conditions of airline pilots in the U.S. - I was aware that the pay and general status of commercial pilots has been eroded for some years now but I was truly shocked at just how bad conditions in the U.S. are now - starting salaries at American Eagle are under $US 20,000 . One pilot was interviewed who admitted to having applied for food stamps to feed himself ( food stamps are considered to be be for the poorest ).
Captain Sullenberger who landed his Airbus in the Hudson told Congress his pay has been cut by 40% and his pension is worthless - he said he knew of no pilots who wanted their children to enter the profession.

Easy to dismiss this as relating to the U.S. ? Perhaps , but don't forget trends in the states have a nasty habit of crossing the pond. Young pilots it seems have to mortgage their futures to pursue their ( often badly paid ) careers. I at one time entertained notions of becoming a pilot but having spoken to several commercial pilots I am glad I did not take that road.

airvan

You can't always rely on Michael Moore but on that he's right. I read recently about a US Navy pilot a Lieut. Commander who left the Navy and took a huge drop in pay to get a start in the airlines. This kind of thing is commonplace.

The US system is a bit different to here. I don't think it would ever get that bad on this side of the pond. But it's definitely on a downward trend. Regional pilots accept low pay like that because the intention is to move on the majors in due course. It's the same with Instructors, charter flying, para dropping. Long hours, minimum pay. Relatively speaking it's easier and cheaper to become a pilot in the US so there is oversupply. Here it is that much more expensive so the oversupply of pilots isn't as bad.

It doesn't help the profession that younger newly qualified pilots offer to work for nothing for the 'hours'. :mad:

BostonB

airvan wrote: »

5...It doesn't help the profession that younger newly qualified pilots offer to work for nothing for the 'hours'. :mad:

That happens in almost all industries where there is potential for high earning in the future.

You could be stuck on low salaries or unemployed in any other industry too. But which would you rather be, low paid and in an office 9-5 or in a cockpit. Also you have to take the long term view that in 10yrs time you'd probably be getting a good salary. So theres no harm in being prepared and ready should an opportunity comes up. I'd also say you should be prepared to leave Ireland, if your serious about chasing it.

It may work out, it may not. Thats life.

dixiefly

InTheTrees wrote: »

I paid to become a pilot and never had any intention of getting a job as one.

SO yes, its worth it.

Totally irrelevant post to the original question. You obviously have an alternative source of money and can afford to do the course as a hobby. Wheareas the OP at 16 is looking for options to train with a view to getting work and will be most likely have the folks at home paying for it.

jmayo

gatecrash wrote: »

not meaning to be smart, but if the runway is above you, does that not mean you are either

Flying Upside Down Or After ploughing a big hole in the ground?

Neither of which would be particularly useful in a commercial a/c

ahhhh
Trust me it is not particularly useful for non commerical aircraft as well. :cool:
They fly on same basic principles you know.

pilotgirl wrote: »

No i'm guessing it means the Behind and Above words reversed so that would mean the runway Below you and the sky Infront of you ! which makes sence haha

Ahhh can't believe I am explaining this.
It means that runway behind you is useless for either landing or taking off and sky above you is useless as it is always easier to lose height than gain it.
Thus having sky above you is useless like having runway behind you.

Always have lots of runway in front of you and height below you.
That way you can get out of trouble better.
Now Lesson 1 is complete.

pilotgirl wrote: »

And yeah thanks a mill iv heard its a dodgey business if your in anyway sick your in **** basically so it would be good to be qualified in something in the same area.. would that be in the same area airline traffic controllers and the likes ?

I will definitely take it one step at a time though ! Thanks again,

Good luck with it.

BostonB

Its like the first rule of Driving in Italy. Whats behind you is not important.

Milan Cobian

Of course it's worth it! I'd do it for the love of flying, not just as a potential job. It'll cost ya a few bob to get a licence but you'll always have it. Go for it!

This is rubbish advice. If you're doing it for love of flying, stick to a PPL. There's no point on spending a fortune for a CPL/IR unless you want professional employment, of which there is none for newly qualified pilots at the moment. It might improve in the future, but there will never be less jobs available than newly qualified low hour pilots. Never has been, never will be. Pilot shortages have only ever occured for experienced pilots on certain types, in certain places at certain times.

but you'll always have it.

No you won't. The IR will lapse after a year, the CPL after 5. Keeping them current is very expensive. And you will get rusty very fast. Which isn't good when your sim check is up against someone less rusty.

Delancey

Milan Cobian wrote: »

This is rubbish advice. If you're doing it for love of flying, stick to a PPL. There's no point on spending a fortune for a CPL/IR unless you want professional employment, of which there is none for newly qualified pilots at the moment. It might improve in the future, but there will never be less jobs available than newly qualified low hour pilots. Never has been, never will be. Pilot shortages have only ever occured for experienced pilots on certain types, in certain places at
certain times.



No you won't. The IR will lapse after a year, the CPL after 5. Keeping them current is very expensive. And you will get rusty very fast. Which isn't good when your sim check is up against someone less rusty.

Hard - nosed but sound advice in my opinion

InTheTrees

donkey balls wrote: »

so if you manage to get a fATPL(250hr tt) when the airlines start hiring again who are they going take on first? the guys that have b737/757&a320 TR with a couple of thousand hours or someone with no TR/jet,t-prop experience.(unless you go to FR)
and were are the facts that things are starting to improve?

Unfortunately the thousands of hours guys probably wont be interested in the entry level positions because of the pay cut they'd have to take but they're still there.

There will always be a demand for new pilots its just the rate that varies.

Milan Cobian

Unfortunately the thousands of hours guys probably wont be interested in the entry level positions because of the pay cut they'd have to take but they're still there.

They will if the other option is unemployment. And from most airlines point of view, they are vastly preferable to a newbie. The main reason being that a newbie is a massive training risk - so many fail out of initial type rating courses. On the other hand an old hand experienced on type is virtually no risk, assuming they're not completely insane. There also many other reasons of course, insurance issues to name but one.

There will always be a demand for new pilots its just the rate that varies.

Wrong. There is no demand now, none, zero, zilch. Similar after 9/11, similar in 1991 etc. Let us be clear: airlines are NOT hiring low time pilots at any rate.

Delancey

My own impression is that notwithstanding very poor employment opportunities for pilots at present there is a general and long-term erosion of the pay, conditions and status of pilots - and I'm not just talking of those in General Aviation.
Consider this - I remember a time whan being an Air Hostess ( yeah , thats what Cabin Crew were once called ) was every girls dream - that job had major status and a very glamorous image , it also paid better then.
Look at Cabin Crew now - they're called Trolley Dollys ( if they're lucky ) , no longer do young girls dream of working at it , the pay is awful - look at FR who required their trainees to finance their own training - pretty lousy deal , huh ?
My question is : will pilots follow Cabin Crew down the employment toilet and in , say , 10 years ,be viewed ( and treated ) as aerial bus drivers ?

Any opinions ?

Growler!!!

They will if the other option is unemployment. And from most airlines point of view, they are vastly preferable to a newbie. The main reason being that a newbie is a massive training risk - so many fail out of initial type rating courses.

You'd be surprised. Many cadets are taken from Oxford every year by BA. The reason - the newbie does not have to be trained out of old - possibly bad habits.

Many of these newbies have a vast amount of fresh knowledge imparted on them by their instructors. Short of experience but long in knowledge:D.

Of course if the old sweat is transfering onto the same type then the newbie will lose out. Lots of factors to consider. Many airlines are not recruiting at the moment but there are also a number who although not activley recruiting are still taking on new starts.

donkey balls

Growler!!! wrote: »

You'd be surprised. Many cadets are taken from Oxford every year by BA. The reason - the newbie does not have to be trained out of old - possibly bad habits.

Many of these newbies have a vast amount of fresh knowledge imparted on them by their instructors. Short of experience but long in knowledge:D.

Of course if the old sweat is transfering onto the same type then the newbie will lose out. Lots of factors to consider. Many airlines are not recruiting at the moment but there are also a number who although not activley recruiting are still taking on new starts.

i thought BA had a holding pool of a couple of hundred rated/non rated guys waiting to get in.

Growler!!!

donkey balls wrote: »

i thought BA had a holding pool of a couple of hundred rated/non rated guys waiting to get in.

Indeed they do. Every airline has a hold pool. But its dependent on size - BA may have many hundred in the pool - Aer Arann have 8 maybe 9 - We have 1.

But lets not forget that its better to be in an airlines holding pool rather than swimming with the sharks in the open ocean. (Refering to the pay to fly schemes currently doing the rounds:mad:)

donkey balls

Growler!!! wrote: »

Indeed they do. Every airline has a hold pool. But its dependent on size - BA may have many hundred in the pool - Aer Arann have 8 maybe 9 - We have 1.

But lets not forget that its better to be in an airlines holding pool rather than swimming with the sharks in the open ocean. (Refering to the pay to fly schemes currently doing the rounds:mad:)

thats very true all right but i reckon in the near future BA & EI will probely go down the EZY & FR module and get cadets to pay for their TR or simply hire guys that are rated all ready.

globemaster1986

Milan Cobian wrote: »

.
Wrong. There is no demand now, none, zero, zilch. Similar after 9/11, similar in 1991 etc. Let us be clear: airlines are NOT hiring low time pilots at any rate.

See below from Flight Global. Also Ryanair and hiring FOs out of flight school for their new aircraft. I know of 2 hired in recent months.


Emirates to recruit 700 pilots in next 18 months
By Murdo Morrison

After largely closing its doors to new recruits during the 2009 downturn, Emirates plans to hire more than 700 pilots over the next 18 months to support new routes and aircraft.
The airline has embarked on a recruitment roadshow that will take in much of Europe, Africa, Asia and the Americas. It kicked off on 4 June in Madrid, one of six new destinations this year. It has already begun services from Dubai to Tokyo and Amsterdam, with Prague, Baghdad and Dakar to follow.
Emirates - which has a 147-strong fleet with six aircraft due to arrive this year, part of 144 on order - traditionally recruits only first officers.
Capt Alan Stealey, divisional senior vice-president flight operations, says Emirates is recruiting at a time when much of the industry is cutting back. The airline recently took delivery of its ninth Airbus A380 and will accept number 10 within days.


"That's two giant aircraft to staff in the space of a fortnight," he says. "By the end of the year we will have recruited more than 250 pilots. Next year, we're looking to double that figure and recruit 500."

xflyer

No you won't. The IR will lapse after a year, the CPL after 5. Keeping them current is very expensive. And you will get rusty very fast. Which isn't good when your sim check is up against someone less rusty.

Don't forget the class ratings expire every two years as well.

Also Ryanair and hiring FOs out of flight school for their new aircraft. I know of 2 hired in recent months.

Sorry to be pedantic but Ryanair haven't hired anyone in ages. They are all Brookfield contracts. The point being that there is no job security. They do hire people out of flight school. But I knew several who never even got a reply from Ryanair let alone an interview. Most people I know who were hired recently had lots of experience, flying Instructors, business jets etc.You still have a better chance with some experience of other flying. Ryanair judge people on their actual merits and bank balance;).

A lot of this myth is fostered by flying schools themselves in order to drum up business.

You'd be surprised. Many cadets are taken from Oxford every year by BA. The reason - the newbie does not have to be trained out of old - possibly bad habits.

What 'bad habits'? The old 'bad habits' cliche is just that, a cliche. I'm not really sure what bad habits you get from flying for another commercial operator. Different SOPs maybe, different culture maybe but in an industry as regulated as aviation. There is no place for bad habits. The likes of BA used to like to cherry pick the best cadets out of places like OAA etc. Aer Lingus the same. Both have a culture of hiring cadets. That's not true of all airlines.

Growler!!!

What 'bad habits'? The old 'bad habits' cliche is just that, a cliche. I'm not really sure what bad habits you get from flying for another commercial operator. Different SOPs maybe, different culture maybe but in an industry as regulated as aviation. There is no place for bad habits. The likes of BA used to like to cherry pick the best cadets out of places like OAA etc. Aer Lingus the same. Both have a culture of hiring cadets. That's not true of all airlines.

The different SOP's between airlines can certainly catch a few out. There are lots of habits picked up when flying with out even realizing it. Transfer to another operator and they become glaringly obvious.

Just one simple example is taxi speed. In one well known irish airline they positively zoom in. I've heard our chief giving a right carpeting to lads from that airline for zipping into us as quick as they can!

xflyer

Stuff like that can be sorted out during line checks. I'm sure that Irish airline chew out their new boys for taxying much too slowly.