Newgate Street Shopping Centre?

coolperson05

Hey all. Does anyone know whats happening regarding this? As late as last summer they were still pushing for it to be started. To be honest something has to be done in the city centre regarding shopping. City Square just isn't cutting it anymore.
IMO Somewhere like the old cinema on Patricks Street, the Stand Pub, the brand new unit on Patrick Street too are great candidates for new stores. A place like Waterford still doesn't have M&S, Top Shop, New Look, H&M, Burton, Brown Thomas etc. People of the south east have no access to these shops outside of Dubin/Cork and it seems crazy that a population of this size is just forgotten in retail giants heads...And yet Clonmel, Newbridge, Athlone, etc can have these places.
anyone agree? Theres the space but not the interest...

dayshah

coolperson05 wrote: »

Hey all. Does anyone know whats happening regarding this? As late as last summer they were still pushing for it to be started. To be honest something has to be done in the city centre regarding shopping. City Square just isn't cutting it anymore.
IMO Somewhere like the old cinema on Patricks Street, the Stand Pub, the brand new unit on Patrick Street too are great candidates for new stores. A place like Waterford still doesn't have M&S, Top Shop, New Look, H&M, Burton, Brown Thomas etc. People of the south east have no access to these shops outside of Dubin/Cork and it seems crazy that a population of this size is just forgotten in retail giants heads...And yet Clonmel, Newbridge, Athlone, etc can have these places.
anyone agree? Theres the space but not the interest...

Newgate St was a boom time project. If it was going to happen it would have by now. Anyway it was mug ugly.

I wonder what could go into the old cinema? It would be a good location. The ceilings are very high, which might be a bad use of space.

coolperson05

Yeah i do agree it was far too ambitious and just huge! lol Well surely if they remodelled the whole inside of the cinema, you'd get 3 floors in there...The new Waterford Crystal centre shows that you can turn anything into anything!! Who knew an ESB office could be a crystal factory!?

ziedth

If they could knock into the few shops around it I think you would have a nice indoor shopping area.

You would need some kind of covered walkway between city square and there I would feel

dayshah

ziedth wrote: »

If they could knock into the few shops around it I think you would have a nice indoor shopping area.

You would need some kind of covered walkway between city square and there I would feel

How about knock into the Broad St shopping centre? Turn it back into shops and put the offices somewhere else (like railway square or O'Connell St).

I think the old cinema + Broad St would be a decent size.

merlante

Absolutely do not agree that the Newgate centre was only possible in the boom. Waterford has the lowest level of retail of any of the main cities, with a number of major retailers not represented. M&S, for example, have been trying to get into Waterford for ages.

With a catchment population of over 120,000 within 30 mins and the fact that it would be the most attractive retail prospect for 80 miles in any direction, means that it would do very well. Look at the level of retail in places like Galway or Limerick, which, although larger cities than Waterford, have similar catchment populations. (Waterford is surrounded by a number of biggish towns: Tramore, Carrick-on-Suir, New Ross.)

The Newgate centre is probably the only large retail project that will be viable over the next few years. I don't blame the developers for holding off until credit becomes cheaper, I would wait another year at least.

dayshah

merlante wrote: »

Look at the level of retail in places like Galway or Limerick, which, although larger cities than Waterford, have similar catchment populations. (Waterford is surrounded by a number of biggish towns: Tramore, Carrick-on-Suir, New Ross.)

I'm not so convinced by this. Waterford County has a small population. Waterford is actually the smallest county in terms of population in Munster.

I wouldn't call Tramore a biggish town, I'd put it at medium. It has 10,000 people. Ennis for example has about 25,000. Also if somewhere is 30 min from Waterford they could now be about 1 hour 20min from Dublin. South Kilkenny and Wexford don't have many towns over 10,000.

I like to use gravity as an analogy. Even if a town is closer to Waterford than Cork or Dublin, people can still be under the gravity of these cities rather than Waterford. To attract people to shop here I think we would need some sort of niché, like become the best place in the country for sports gear or baby stuff or something that involves comparisons. I don't think a M&S would do it.

merlante

dayshah wrote: »

I'm not so convinced by this. Waterford County has a small population. Waterford is actually the smallest county in terms of population in Munster.

I wouldn't call Tramore a biggish town, I'd put it at medium. It has 10,000 people. Ennis for example has about 25,000. Also if somewhere is 30 min from Waterford they could now be about 1 hour 20min from Dublin. South Kilkenny and Wexford don't have many towns over 10,000.

I like to use gravity as an analogy. Even if a town is closer to Waterford than Cork or Dublin, people can still be under the gravity of these cities rather than Waterford. To attract people to shop here I think we would need some sort of niché, like become the best place in the country for sports gear or baby stuff or something that involves comparisons. I don't think a M&S would do it.

The point is that the 30 min catchement population of Waterford is just over 120,000. Galway's 30 min catchment is over 134,000. Very similar. This gives a good idea of the sort of population that is going to spend their money in Waterford. Waterford with the Newgate centre would be far and away the best retail destination in the south east, and the best for 80 miles west and 100 miles north. Waterford is relatively far from the other cities, whereas Galway, Limerick and Cork are closer together.

Waterford would have plenty of 'gravity' if it provided a similar level of retail offering to Limerick and Galway. There is no way people are going to travel 1hr 50mins to Cork if Waterford has most of the same stuff 15, 30 or 45 mins away. Waterford is the only centre in the south east that has the potential to offer that level of retail offering and it can do so without the same fear of competition, as Limerick would have of Cork.

Don't agree with Waterford developing a niche. Waterford is potentially the main centre for a population of 450,000 people. It is theoretically at the moment. I think the Newgate centre would cement this.

The population of co. Waterford may be small, but the west is less densely population. The area around Waterford is more densely population than the same area around Galway and Limerick. Compare towns like Tramore, New Ross and Carrick to the towns surrounding those cities. They are considerably larger. Thus Waterford has a similar catchment.

The_Shotz

I heard something about this on Billy McCarthy this morning, but missed it all. Something happening to new street, stephen street area, I think it was reported in the News and Star, haven't had a chance to pick it up yet.

Anyone hear it?

rugbytiger

Seems like this development is on again. The planning application was reloaded this week.
I can't paste in the details from the planning notice as I'm a new user. Heard that NAMA was going to develop it and then sell it on.

robtri

rugbytiger wrote: »

Seems like this development is on again. The planning application was reloaded this week.
I can't paste in the details from the planning notice as I'm a new user. Heard that NAMA was going to develop it and then sell it on.

Planning Application: 16175
Application Number 16175
Received Date 21/03/2016
Application Status New Application
Application Type PERMISSION
Applicant Name Newgate Properties Limited
Description (i)a shopping centre principally bounded by Alexander St to the north; Michael St to the east; Stephen's St to the west and New St to the south, and (ii)a multi-storey car park principally bounded by John's Lane to the north; Wyse Park, the Quaker graveyard and the rear of existing structures to the east and south and Brown's Lane to the west. The dev will include the following demolition works: No25 Michael St & assoc ancillary rear additions/structures; the rear only of No12 Michael St; existing structures within the former WIT site on New St/John's Lane; the existing multi-storey car park accessed from New St; the former Kielys Yard on New St; 2 no. former car service garages off John's Lane; a vacant 2storey house at No.1A Alexander St; the R.O'Keeffee & Sons Monumental Works, sheds, outbuildings and a 2storey house on Michael St and all related ancillary outbuildings and storage structures. The dev will have a total gross floor area of 26.030 sqm approx. The dev will consist of
Location Site bounded by Alexander Street, Michael St, Stephens Street & New Street & John's Lane, Wyse Park and Brown's Lane Waterford
Decision Other
Decision Date n/a
Decision Due Date 15/05/2016
Appeal Decision n/a
Appeal Decision Date n/a
View further details More info
View documents More info
ITMEasting 660,553.73
ITMNorthing 612,273.95
Planning Authority Waterford City and County Council
Date Uploaded 20160325

invara

No drawing up on the Council website. Link is here: http://www.eplanning.ie/WaterfordCCC/searchresults

SOPHIE THE DOG

It takes a little while for the plans to be scanned and uploaded. Check back on their website in a few days time.

mire

Will be very interesting to see what this looks like; I hope it is a serious and thoughtful proposal. The one thing I like already is the location, this cold have a very positive effect on the city centre.

Deisegodeo

Hopefully this proceeds as planned, a couple of major anchor tenants are essential to this being a success. The city centre really needs something like this to attract people in for shopping. Plus that awful multi storey car park that is there at the moment will be gone. The proposal looks like it will create at least 2 new little streets leading into the shopping centre from Michael street, if done right this could be fantastic.

TheQuietFella

coolperson05 wrote: »

Who knew an ESB office could be a crystal factory!?

It's not! It's a showroom!

TheQuietFella

Deisegodeo wrote: »

Hopefully this proceeds as planned, a couple of major anchor tenants are essential to this being a success. The city centre really needs something like this to attract people in for shopping. Plus that awful multi storey car park that is there at the moment will be gone. The proposal looks like it will create at least 2 new little streets leading into the shopping centre from Michael street, if done right this could be fantastic.

I'm looking forward to seeing the plans for this development BUT

I sincerely hope they have archaeological surveyors on site to oversee it.

Road-Hog

TheQuietFella wrote: »

I'm looking forward to seeing the plans for this development BUT

I sincerely hope they have archaeological surveyors on site to oversee it.

Think developments such as this are exempt from archaeological legislation. Only publicaly funded ones have to comply with the 'teaspoon' and 'toothbrush' brigade!

JohnC.

Road-Hog wrote: »

Think developments such as this are exempt from archaeological legislation. Only publicaly funded ones have to comply with the 'teaspoon' and 'toothbrush' brigade!

City Square? Or did it change since then?

BBM77

Road-Hog wrote: »

Think developments such as this are exempt from archaeological legislation. Only publicaly funded ones have to comply with the 'teaspoon' and 'toothbrush' brigade!

I’m open to correction but I’m pretty sure that all building that takes place within the city walls that involves demolition and rebuilding from the foundations up are subject to a compulsory archaeological investigation beforehand. Regardless of being public or private.

O Riain

Road-Hog wrote: »

Think developments such as this are exempt from archaeological legislation. Only publicaly funded ones have to comply with the 'teaspoon' and 'toothbrush' brigade!

No point in trying to make light of what is an extremely important job. If we gave more importance to our historical heritage in the past then Waterford City would have a tourism offer unequaled in Ireland.

shockwave

What ever happened to the "serial objector" he hasnt been seen or heard from in years and this type of thing is something he used to love sticking his nose in.

Max Powers

shockwave wrote: »

What ever happened to the "serial objector" he hasnt been seen or heard from in years and this type of thing is something he used to love sticking his nose in.

There has been very little to object to last 8 years, I'm sure he'll be back.
I'm fairly sure any digging on site well require archaeology assessment and unavoidable digs.You can't dig anywhere in Ireland, especially place like Waterford without finding something, bones, whatever

Road-Hog

shockwave wrote: »

What ever happened to the "serial objector" he hasnt been seen or heard from in years and this type of thing is something he used to love sticking his nose in.

Kellogg's told him to corn-centrate on his core role and threatened him with sacking

fricatus

BBM77 wrote: »

I’m open to correction but I’m pretty sure that all building that takes place within the city walls that involves demolition and rebuilding from the foundations up are subject to a compulsory archaeological investigation beforehand. Regardless of being public or private.

Yes, I believe that's right. When Penney's took over the Belfry Hotel and rebuilt their store, they had an archaeologist on site.

Waterboy2014

A few good pictures on Waterford Councils facebook page... post dated March 22nd. Can't post pictures

Gardner

I’d hope the serial objector has a good look at this. While people jumped down his throat about objecting to certain buildings, he was very much in the right in most cases. Take railway square for example, an absolute eye sore that has basically turned into a student campus.

I really do have some doubts about this project from the off, I think it would be more in the councils interests to promote the existing shopping centres we have and I’d love to get a copy of the traffic management plan that incorporates a fully functional shopping centre. Traffic is already piss poor around the areas during prime shopping times.

Max Powers

Gardner wrote: »

I’d hope the serial objector has a good look at this. While people jumped down his throat about objecting to certain buildings, he was very much in the right in most cases. Take railway square for example, an absolute eye sore that has basically turned into a student campus.

I really do have some doubts about this project from the off, I think it would be more in the councils interests to promote the existing shopping centres we have and I’d love to get a copy of the traffic management plan that incorporates a fully functional shopping centre. Traffic is already piss poor around the areas during prime shopping times.

Disagree.first off,i don't think railway sq is an eyesore, what's wrong with student accommodation, three are offices being used in there too, plus a cinema, car park, and tk max.I'm pretty sure he objected when a pizza chain wanted to go in there too..If he objected or made submissions to large scale developments only, that would be acceptable but if you look him up on bord you can see how much he objected to and was plain wrong,a creche,a church extension, small housing extensions and developments of under 5 houses.this guy was more interested in stopping all development/work so although I like to see the other side to, in this case, you will find himself and yourself on the wrong side.the council and bord planala didn't agree with him in most cases so he only succeeded in delaying and increasing costs of work
While I want to see existing shopping areas promoted, we have been over and over this so many times, big retailers want big open boxes which we don't have.we need some of those big retailers to widen our shopping product/attraction which will make entire city more visitor friendly.

BBM77

Gardner wrote: »

I’d hope the serial objector has a good look at this. While people jumped down his throat about objecting to certain buildings, he was very much in the right in most cases. Take railway square for example, an absolute eye sore that has basically turned into a student campus.

Don’t agree with this. I meet the person in question twice and discussed planning issues. The fact that he objected to literally everything being built in the city but he did not object to the Ferrybank Shopping Centre leaves him with no creditability to my mind. Also the fact that he objected to literally everything means there is bound to be some developments that did not work out as planned. This is not a sign of him being correct in most cases. Again, he objected to literally everything, what exactly was his philosophy, everything can’t be wrong. I know of a case where he objected to a plan, the owners meet with him and resubmitted a revised application at extra cost that addressed his concerns and he objected again on some spurious grounds.

I really do have some doubts about this project from the off, I think it would be more in the councils interests to promote the existing shopping centres we have and I’d love to get a copy of the traffic management plan that incorporates a fully functional shopping centre. Traffic is already piss poor around the areas during prime shopping times.

What are you saying? That there is a problem with the city centre because traffic is heavy at peak times. What do you expect?

The reality is Waterford’s retail sector is under-developed and we need to develop it in a sustainable way. The Newgate Centre is the best way to do this. It will cause more traffic but there will be advantages and disadvantages with everything.

mire

Gardner wrote: »

I’d hope the serial objector has a good look at this. While people jumped down his throat about objecting to certain buildings, he was very much in the right in most cases. Take railway square for example, an absolute eye sore that has basically turned into a student campus.

I really do have some doubts about this project from the off, I think it would be more in the councils interests to promote the existing shopping centres we have and I’d love to get a copy of the traffic management plan that incorporates a fully functional shopping centre. Traffic is already piss poor around the areas during prime shopping times.

The city centre needs appropriately located commercial and retail development. This is precisely what Waterford needs (i have yet to see detailed drawings but I have a sense of the overall scheme). I am unsure what you mean by the City Council supporting existing shopping centres? How? Why?

BTW, Waterford's traffic problems in the city centre are the opposite to those in most cities - i.e. the city centre could do with a bit of congestion! It needs footfall badly - and this can only come about from new development and enhancing the retail and commercial offer. The retail core is like a ghost town compared with Cork, Galway, KK; the weekdays in the city centre are worryingly quiet, and I am sorry, it does not have a significant traffic issue. This development is located right in the heart of the city core - exactly where new development should be located.

On Railway Square, although this won't win any architectural awards, at least it delivered a cinema, TK Maxx, and additional residential population right next to the city centre. As opposed to yet more inappropriately located development in Ardkeen, Ferrybank, Six Cross Roads, Butlerstown.

Suryavarman

Gardner wrote: »

I’d hope the serial objector has a good look at this. While people jumped down his throat about objecting to certain buildings, he was very much in the right in most cases. Take railway square for example, an absolute eye sore that has basically turned into a student campus.

I really do have some doubts about this project from the off, I think it would be more in the councils interests to promote the existing shopping centres we have and I’d love to get a copy of the traffic management plan that incorporates a fully functional shopping centre. Traffic is already piss poor around the areas during prime shopping times.

The existing shopping centres are already full apart from one empty unit in City Square if I'm not mistaken. What is there to promote?

SOPHIE THE DOG

The Waterford City & County Council Planning website now has all the Planning Application information scanned, uploaded and available for viewing. The final report listed (size 4639) on the list of scanned files shows drawings and a narrative of what the scheme will look like. Looks interesting - with the preservation of Michael St as it is (almost) and with lots of public viewing space on what will be a large landscaped roof area.

Irishlad2014

SOPHIE THE DOG wrote: »

The Waterford City & County Council Planning website now has all the Planning Application information scanned, uploaded and available for viewing. The final report listed (size 4639) on the list of scanned files shows drawings and a narrative of what the scheme will look like. Looks interesting - with the preservation of Michael St as it is (almost) and with lots of public viewing space on what will be a large landscaped roof area.

Have you got the link for this? the new council website is awful can find nothing on it!

iseegirls

Suryavarman wrote: »

The existing shopping centres are already full apart from one empty unit in City Square if I'm not mistaken. What is there to promote?

Carraig Don seems to have left over the past week or so. Jane Norman unit is empty, Next is empty, the old card shop is empty too. I think the cake shop beside Debenhams is gone too. Not to forget where GameStop used to be upstairs.

But this maybe to do with the high rent that City Square may be asking for

SOPHIE THE DOG

I don't have enough posts to link to the website.
The planning ref number is listed on an earlier post here.
Using that its not overly difficult to navigate the Council Planning website and use their seach by planning application ref number.

Max Powers

iseegirls wrote: »

Carraig Don seems to have left over the past week or so. Jane Norman unit is empty, Next is empty, the old card shop is empty too. I think the cake shop beside Debenhams is gone too. Not to forget where GameStop used to be upstairs.

But this maybe to do with the high rent that City Square may be asking for

Carraig donn had sign saying relocating....where to i don't know.
Card shop I reckon closed as its gonna be knocked for extension.
I'd be surprised if cake shop closed...it often just looks c closed then open next day you pass in my experience.

Suryavarman

iseegirls wrote: »

Carraig Don seems to have left over the past week or so. Jane Norman unit is empty, Next is empty, the old card shop is empty too. I think the cake shop beside Debenhams is gone too. Not to forget where GameStop used to be upstairs.

But this maybe to do with the high rent that City Square may be asking for

Oh. I forgot so many places were closed. I just thought it was jut the card shop. I was leaving the old Gamestop out of it because it doesn't seem like anything will go in there.

Please tell me the cake shop is still open. They did a very nice cream bun.

Max Powers

Suryavarman wrote: »

Oh. I forgot so many places were closed. I just thought it was jut the card shop. I was leaving the old Gamestop out of it because it doesn't seem like anything will go in there.

Please tell me the cake shop is still open. They did a very nice cream bun.

I'd say you are right about rent, plus they did nothing with the place and seen to be in no rush to extend...they will when they see newgate starting.

JohnC.

Suryavarman wrote: »

Oh. I forgot so many places were closed. I just thought it was jut the card shop. I was leaving the old Gamestop out of it because it doesn't seem like anything will go in there.

Please tell me the cake shop is still open. They did a very nice cream bun.

I think it's safe to say Amandine is gone. Closed for two or three weeks now and their website and Facebook page are gone.

I don't know where Carraig Donn are moving to, but I do know Specsavers are relocating to where they were.

More on topic, the Newgate planning seems to be this one
http://193.178.30.153/iDocsWebDPSS/listFiles.aspx?catalog=planning&id=16175

Wanderer2010

Speaking of City Square, do you need to rent the area where that guy is selling Sky packages for the last God only knows how many years? I never go to him as I have heard he is as ignorant as they come but I'm amazed hes still lasting as long as he is considering he really is selling only one product and depending on passing trade. I know his overheads are lower but it still odd.

Wanderer78

Wanderer2010 wrote:

Speaking of City Square, do you need to rent the area where that guy is selling Sky packages for the last God only knows how many years? I never go to him as I have heard he is as ignorant as they come but I'm amazed hes still lasting as long as he is considering he really is selling only one product and depending on passing trade. I know his overheads are lower but it still odd.

You d see those kiosks in other shopping centres round the country so I'd Imagine they're heavily subsidised by sky. Some boring job though. I'd also imagine you d have to have a permit to set up one of those kiosks, so that's where the 'rent' would be

iseegirls

It is handy when there is a match on though. He sometimes has a crowd of about 20 people when there's an Ireland or premier league match on. But again, I doubt he makes any money off them - and it probably puts people off buying from them at a time when so many people are hogged around the stand.

longshanks

Any truth in the rumour that Kylemore are leaving, to be replaced by a food court set up?

iseegirls

longshanks wrote: »

Any truth in the rumour that Kylemore are leaving, to be replaced by a food court set up?

That would be a good idea. Unknown though if there is enough space, unless they knock into a few of the empty units surrounding it and change the toilets.

Actually saying that, the toilets need to be downstairs. It's ridiculous having them upstairs, bad for people in wheelchairs too. And they need to go in search of a security man to open the disabled toilet too. Such a mess.

The_Shotz

Heard the same rumour about kylemore. I heard the plan is to extend the floor up stairs out further,similar to the food court in Mahon Point in Cork.

Also heard they got the green light to construct where the brasserie once was and that area along the front.

City Square badly needs a redevelopment, fairly dated looking with too many small units at present

BBM77

JohnC. wrote: »

I don't know where Carraig Donn are moving to...

Geroge's Court I believe.

Digital Society

Wanderer78 wrote: »

You d see those kiosks in other shopping centres round the country so I'd Imagine they're heavily subsidised by sky. Some boring job though. I'd also imagine you d have to have a permit to set up one of those kiosks, so that's where the 'rent' would be

50 quid a referral.

No discounted packages allowed.

Sully

Wanderer78 wrote: »

You d see those kiosks in other shopping centres round the country so I'd Imagine they're heavily subsidised by sky. Some boring job though. I'd also imagine you d have to have a permit to set up one of those kiosks, so that's where the 'rent' would be

There run and operated by Sky. The staff are Sky Employees. They get commission on sales of any description including Broadband - plus a base wage. There a sound bunch that work there.

VincePP

iseegirls wrote: »

Carraig Don seems to have left over the past week or so. Jane Norman unit is empty, Next is empty, the old card shop is empty too. I think the cake shop beside Debenhams is gone too. Not to forget where GameStop used to be upstairs.

But this maybe to do with the high rent that City Square may be asking for

I'm not from WF, but have had an interest in locating a store there at some stage.

On City Square, no units are currently available as the centre is being reconfigured and extended. (New owners took over last October) Many of the smaller units are being joined to make for a smaller number of larger units and an extension is planned.

Some very short term licences are available, but that doesn't suit most retailers.