Val Venis (Sean Morley) speaks about Chris Benoit's death

Motley Crue

Have a look at this. I applaud Sean for having the courage to speak up in his own beliefs. Not sure if I should judge him either way though. Take a listen and share your thoughts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y38kh7kTxGc

D2D

People can say what they want on the Benoit situation and on Benoit himself but to me, Morley hit the nail on the head. Benoit was 1 of the greatest wrestlers ever but what he did in the end nullified his career and any achievements to his name.

Some will call him a "coward" or worse words but to me, Benoit was a person completely tormented by the demons he had and, in the end, the demons won over. What he did in the end was ABSOLUTELY INEXCUSABLE and for that, any respect I had for him is and will be gone and still, to this day, I feel extremely uncomfortable watching any match (whether it was a classic or not) Benoit was in.

campo

have to agree I totally agree with D2D , I dont even like to see Shawn Michaels apply the crossface

waltersobchak

Morley seems like an extremely articulate and intelligent fellow, i think the points he made were very very good, seems like one of the few shoots were someones speaking with his head rather than trying to put themselves over

Penn

Dare_2_defy wrote: »

Benoit was 1 of the greatest wrestlers ever but what he did in the end nullified his career and any achievements to his name.

I wouldn't say that. It tainted his career and achievements, sure.... but to nullify them? What he did was horrific, inexcusable etc. No doubt about it. But he was still a fantastic technical wrestler, had some great fueds, some terrific matches... Watching a few of the PPVs from 2000/2001 lately, I can still watch and enjoy his matches for what they are.

Nobody knows what was going on in Benoit's head. Most of his best friends at the time knew something was up with him, but I don't think any of them even dreamt he was going to do what he did. Hell, he was scheduled to win the ECW title that weekend, and there's a reason; up until that weekend, he was still one of the best wrestlers in the world.

I agree that I don't like the crossface being used now though. I think they should have left it for another few years. There are plenty of other holds they could use.

(Just to note, haven't watched the video yet as I'm in work. Will watch it later)

waltersobchak

paddyirishman85 wrote: »

I wouldn't say that. It tainted his career and achievements, sure.... but to nullify them? What he did was horrific, inexcusable etc. No doubt about it. But he was still a fantastic technical wrestler, had some great fueds, some terrific matches... Watching a few of the PPVs from 2000/2001 lately, I can still watch and enjoy his matches for what they are.

Nobody knows what was going on in Benoit's head. Most of his best friends at the time knew something was up with him, but I don't think any of them even dreamt he was going to do what he did. Hell, he was scheduled to win the ECW title that weekend, and there's a reason; up until that weekend, he was still one of the best wrestlers in the world.

I agree that I don't like the crossface being used now though. I think they should have left it for another few years. There are plenty of other holds they could use.

(Just to note, haven't watched the video yet as I'm in work. Will watch it later)

I completely agree with Dare on this. Althought Benoit was easily the greatest worker of all time, the guy now doesnt deserve to even be mentioned in the same breath as anyone else now. Obviously wrestling is an industry thats suspended in disbelief and where the real is not so real, and what happens in wrestlers personal lives should really concern us but what Benoit did was one of the most horrific crimes ever involving someone in the public eye.. And although i loved his matches before i've only watched 2 of his matches since his death and they really werent pleasurable experiences

Dancor

campo wrote: »

have to agree I totally agree with D2D , I dont even like to see Shawn Michaels apply the crossface

A +1 to what you said. I feel the same about a diving headbutt being used.

chopperbyrne

He had some good points about how the media handled it. They jumped all over it, calling it a steroid induced crime and "roid-rage" and on one show they had Jericho, Nash and Bret on and all three of them said that they were certain it wasn't steroids, but the interviewer just kept ignoring them.

Jericho said he thought it was the result of many undiagnosed concussions and I remember Nash saying he had used steroids for years and never had any "roid-rage", but again he was ignored in favour of the more sensationalist view.

Tribesmen7

I have not watched a Benoit match since then. One of my favourite matches was Benoit vs Kurt Angle at the Royal Bumble 2003. I still have his Hard Knocks DVD but haven't watched it since he died.

I think Shawn was right to use the Crossface, its a wrestling move and while Benoit made it famous its right that somebody else reclaims it and not have the move associated with only Chris Benoit.

gimmick

The flying headbutt was not made famous by Benoit, whatever about a crossface, so the E can be forgiven for that.

TBH, while what he did sickens me, I can happily watch what he achieved in his career, espcially as I am watching some of his early 90s Japan stuff at the moment. I find it amazing to believe that this fresh faced youngster would go on to have an end like he did.

Defo each to their own and all that though.

Vince135792003

I remember being on the net when it initially happened and the news seeped through very gradually over the next 10 hours or so.

When the initial report came in that there were 3 bodies found in the Benoit home I remember seeing every theory known to man what might have happened (violent burglary, gas leak etc..) but nobody suggested what ended up being the reality and is typical in situations like these.

No one that I read (including me) never even considered Benoit killing his family in the initial couple of hours which is interesting in hindsight. Maybe it was denial but I think everyone was in shock.

And then when the news came through that it looked like he killed his family, there was some denial and alot of shock. I IM'ed Bryan Alvarez about 12 hours after it happened who spoke to Benoit quite alot. He was in an absolute daze like everyone else.

And then everyone wanted to know why. There ending up being a million theories as to why.

Penn

Vince135792003 wrote: »

I remember being on the net when it initially happened and the news seeped through very gradually over the next 10 hours or so.

When the initial report came in that there were 3 bodies found in the Benoit home I remember seeing every theory known to man what might have happened (violent burglary, gas leak etc..) but nobody suggested what ended up being the reality and is typical in situations like these.

No one that I read (including me) never even considered Benoit killing his family in the initial couple of hours which is interesting in hindsight. Maybe it was denial but I think everyone was in shock.

And then when the news came through that it looked like he killed his family, there was some denial and alot of shock. I IM'ed Bryan Alvarez about 12 hours after it happened who spoke to Benoit quite alot. He was in an absolute daze like everyone else.

And then everyone wanted to know why. There ending up being a million theories as to why.

I remember being on a night shift in work constantly checking for updates. Thing is, I found out about it on a news site, as I hadn't watched or pretty much thought about wrestling in over 5 years. Strangely, this got me back into wrestling.

Bounty Hunter

I always liked Sean Morely and always felt he could have been used better, was surprised when i found out he was a CMLL World Heavyweight Championship before signing for the WWF.

One thing that for some reason is sticking out in my mind is how weird a feeling it must have been for those superstars who were involved in the tribute type show (news was still breaking tbh) done for Benoit, I mean obviously being involved in Benoits life at all would have been surreal during that time but pouring your hart about the man, talking him up to the nines and saying how much you truely respected the guy (Everyone pretty much thought he was the nicest guy going, they loved him until after that night) and then only a day or so later to find out exactley what happened could in itself mess some people up.

gimmick

It was a very poor decision by WWE to have a tribute show before the fact transpired.

Vince135792003

Bounty Hunter wrote: »

but pouring your hart about the man, talking him up to the nines and saying how much you truely respected the guy

If you watch the show back, you can tell that some of them were starting to become aware of what happened or at least start to wonder about what had actually happened.

There wasn't quite that outpouring as there was for other wrestlers who had died William Regal is a good example. I remember Chavo vaguley hinting at it too.

Here's Regals:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kp3OQAL22T8

Bounty Hunter

gimmick wrote: »

It was a very poor decision by WWE to have a tribute show before the fact transpired.

i agree but they had to have Raw and id say they thought they had to acknowledge it on TV as in no way would skits about Mr McMahons limo blowing up and all be right given the circumstances, no would they be easy to take part in. The image of Chris everywhere prior to the incident was great all round man both in ring and outside of it. He is the type that had such an incident not have happened should be held up and pointed to as an example to others and celebrated like Eddy was. Personally I think it all must have been a real split decision that night with everything being done almost off the cuff. This is because if they new he was dead but not the details it literally only must have just happened as it would not take long to realise it was a murder suicide and people should know who he is and that Raw is going live and want to avoid celebrating someone who they have just realised commited such a crime.

Bounty Hunter

Vince135792003 wrote: »

If you watch the show back, you can tell that some of them were starting to become aware of what happened or at least start to wonder about what had actually happened.

There wasn't quite that outpouring as there was for other wrestlers who had died William Regal is a good example. I remember Chavo vaguley hinting at it too.

Here's Regals:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kp3OQAL22T8

cheers dude, dont think its Chavo your thinking of though as he says while sobbing, "id trust you with my life and my kids life man, i love you" in his, just watched it.

davrho

How can Morley possibly talk about what went on in the house? He can guess as much as any of us can guess. Nobody knows and will never know.

I hate the way everyone becomes mental health experts on this type of situation too. I would say the most experienced physciatrists would not know why a man would kill his family never mind us.

I will comment no further as i don't feel qualified enough to do so.

ps. I hope no one takes offence to this post as it's just an observation.

Vince135792003

Bounty Hunter wrote: »

cheers dude, dont think its Chavo your thinking of though as he says while sobbing, "id trust you with my life and my kids life man, i love you" in his, just watched it.

I would take a different view on that line but it's all guess work.

D2D

gimmick wrote: »

It was a very poor decision by WWE to have a tribute show before the fact transpired.

You have to look at it from WWE's position though, gimmick.

The news of Benoit's death came out on Monday, around 12+ hours before Raw was scheduled to start. WWE gathered all it's staff and rosters and told them the news as soon as it was confirmed to them by the police. I believe this was the time that McMahon death storyline was on and that Raw was scheduled to reveal who did it (I can't remember if it was a 3 hour show or not). Anyway, WWE sensibly scrapped that whole storyline and were left with an empty show and 1 of their highest ranked wrestlers dead. I'd say it was common sense by WWE to put on a tribute show for Benoit (no-one knew what Benoit had done at the time) so they did. No crowd, no matches, just wrestlers giving their thought's on Benoit and they showed Benoit's greatest moments before and in WWE from the Benoit DVD.

When WWE were getting ready for the SD/ECW tapings the next day, what happened became apparant. WWE distanced itself very quickly from Benoit (dropping his merch, taking his profile off etc..) and McMahon basically apologized for airing the show. Straight away, that Raw was re-called for all international markets and replaced by a "best of Raw" episode.

Reganio 2

Vince135792003 wrote: »

When the initial report came in that there were 3 bodies found in the Benoit home I remember seeing every theory known to man what might have happened (violent burglary, gas leak etc..) but nobody suggested what ended up being the reality and is typical in situations like these.

I remember that as well, the main was a burglary gone bad nobody was thinking it could possibly be Benoit to do that. I was never a fan of the man but it was just so incredibly shocking at the time.

Vince135792003 wrote: »

If you watch the show back, you can tell that some of them were starting to become aware of what happened or at least start to wonder about what had actually happened.

There wasn't quite that outpouring as there was for other wrestlers who had died William Regal is a good example. I remember Chavo vaguley hinting at it too.

I remember at the time seeing Regal's and thinking thier was something strange going on as he was meant to be one of Benoit's good mates and he told no stories just that he was a good wrestler or something like that. Their was someone else that did it as well kind of avoided the whole thing.

As far as the tribute show goes Vince was stuck between a rock and a hard place he had to acknowledge that Benoit was dead but how to do it. I am sure the wrestlers weren't in the right frame of mind either. So he put on a tribute show, I reckon Vince had a good idea of what was happening and probably witheld it from the roster so that they would go out and let them find out themselves or tell them at the end of the show.

EDIT: Oh and who is HHH talking about here at 1:00 in?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jX_RxnhQZZE

Le King

No matter what, the man was a great wrestler, but obviously couldn't handle his life for what ever reason. And tbf he is a coward.

chopperbyrne

Osu wrote: »

No matter what, the man was a great wrestler, but obviously couldn't handle his life for what ever reason. And tbf he is a coward.

Didn't the autopsy and toxoclogy reports reveal that he had the mind of someone with dementia though?

I'm not excusing his actions, but there's more to it than just cold blooded murder.

From wikipedia (not the greatest source, but they generally keep things like this in line):
Toxicology reports released on July 17, 2007 revealed that at their time of death, Nancy had three different drugs in her system: Xanax, hydrocodone, and hydromorphone, all of which were found at the therapeutic rather than toxic levels. Daniel was found to have Xanax in his system, which led the chief medical examiner to believe that he was sedated before he was murdered. Benoit was found to have Xanax, hydrocodone, and an elevated level of testosterone, caused by a synthetic form of the hormone, in his system. The chief medical examiner attributed the testosterone level to Benoit possibly being treated for a deficiency caused by previous steroid abuse or testicular insufficiency. There was no indication that anything in Benoit's body contributed to his violent behavior that led to the murder-suicide, concluding that there was no "roid-rage" involved.[104] Prior to the murder-suicide, Benoit had been given illegal steroids not in compliance with WWE's Talent Wellness Program in February 2006. Benoit received nandrolone and anastrozole. During the investigation into steroid abuse, it was revealed that other wrestlers had also been given steroids.[105][106]

After the double-murder suicide, former wrestler Christopher Nowinski contacted Michael Benoit, father of Chris Benoit, suggesting that years of trauma to his son's brain may have led to his actions. Tests were conducted on Benoit's brain by Julian Bailes, the head of neurosurgery at West Virginia University, and results showed that "Benoit's brain was so severely damaged it resembled the brain of an 85-year-old Alzheimer's patient."[107] He was reported to have had an advanced form of dementia, similar to the brains of four retired NFL players who had suffered multiple concussions, sank into depression, and harmed themselves or others. Bailes and his colleagues concluded that repeated concussions can lead to dementia, which can contribute to severe behavioral problems.[108] Benoit's father suggests that brain damage may have been the leading cause of the crime.[109] He also confirmed that his son was quietly cremated, but what was done with the ashes is not public knowledge.[110]

D2D

davrho wrote: »

I hate the way everyone becomes mental health experts on this type of situation too. I would say the most experienced physciatrists would not know why a man would kill his family never mind us.

I will comment no further as i don't feel qualified enough to do so.

ps. I hope no one takes offence to this post as it's just an observation.

No, you're completely true and I think no-one took offence at that post.

People always speculate (some way more than others) on what actually happened that week-end in Atlanta but the truth is, no-one will probably ever know what really happened. All we know is the fact that it was a murder-suicide and Benoit killed Nancy and Daniel over the course of the week-end before killing himself. There's been X amount of stories claiming that Benoit did this and that on the week-end and about 99.9% of it is just B.S

Like I said earlier, Benoit had his demons and in the end, they eventually won and he, unforgivably, did what he did:(

Motley Crue

I looked at Benoit's last match in ECW and just kept thinking "doesn't look like there's anything wrong with him to me?" - good match too

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQ6HnqTIs9M

D2D

Motley Crue wrote: »

I looked at Benoit's last match in ECW and just kept thinking "doesn't look like there's anything wrong with him to me?" - good match too

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQ6HnqTIs9M

I want to watch it (like all Benoit matches) but I know if I do, I won't enjoy it at all knowing what happened and what he did.

Cactus Colm

Dare_2_defy wrote: »

Some will call him a "coward" or worse words but to me, Benoit was a person completely tormented by the demons he had and, in the end, the demons won over. What he did in the end was ABSOLUTELY INEXCUSABLE and for that, any respect I had for him is and will be gone and still, to this day, I feel extremely uncomfortable watching any match (whether it was a classic or not) Benoit was in.

I agree that what he did was inexcusable. But, that shouldn't stop people from looking for an explanation. By all accounts he was a decent enough chap, and decent enough chaps don't all of a sudden murder their wives and children before committing suicide. He wasn't Ted Bundy, Fred West, or Harold Shipman.

Over the past several years Ireland has had it's fair share of murder suicides, and it has been all too easy for people (particularily the tabloid media) to throw around words like "monster" without any real knowledge of why these events have happened. What drove once ordinary, happy people to murder and suicide.

gimmick wrote: »

It was a very poor decision by WWE to have a tribute show before the fact transpired.

I would disagree. Nobody had any reason to believe the events that transpired could have happened. A big star, a friend to many backstage, had passed away. I can see how a tribute show is fully justified by those reasons. Could they have waited until smackdown? Sure, but who could have foreseen those reasons? Nobody, not even those closest to Benoit.

Dare_2_defy wrote: »

I want to watch it (like all Benoit matches) but I know if I do, I won't enjoy it at all knowing what happened and what he did.

I still enjoy watching Benoit's matches. Have no problem. I didn't know the man personally, and have no problem seperating his actions outside the ring to what he did inside it. In the same way I enjoy watching the first two series of The Thick Of It, the first two Naked Guns, or listening the song "I'm The Leader of the Gang (I AM)".



Now somebody above said that none of us here are experts on mental illness, and he wasn't gonna be commenting in the thread again. I think that's a very sensible approach. I don't think anybody disagrees that what Benoit did was absolutely horrific. It's probably fair to say that none of us knew the man personally, and that chances are the facts and reasons of what made him do what he did will be lost among the theories and lies of others.

Mr.Nice Guy

I was one of his biggest fans and the ending at WM20 was one of my favourite moments in wrestling. I haven't watched that event since and I try to avoid his matches. Some are able to blank out the final moments from his life and appreciate the wrestling in his matches. I personally can't.

I do disagree with Morely to an extent, though. My thoughts on the Benoit situation is that the massive amount of trauma he sustained in his life actually altered his behaviour. I believe the autopsy results showed that his brain was damaged more than any professional athlete they had seen and was said to be one one of the worst specimens the doctors had encountered.

I briefly did a course in college on cognitive psychology and we learned about a guy called Phineas Gage. He was a construction worker in the States who had a metal rod go right through his brain in an explosion. He amazingly survived it but it dramatically altered his behaviour afterwards and he went from a mild-mannered man before the accident to a very aggressive individual after it. His closest companions said he was "no longer Gage". You can read more about him here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phineas_Gage

This is why I'm somewhat more reluctant to call Benoit a coward because I do think in a certain way he was also a victim because of the damage his brain received. However, in saying that, I can't excuse the things he did in his final hours and the choices he made. It's just a shame no one could get to help him in time.

I still find the whole thing very disturbing to think about but I don't think it's as black and white as perhaps Morley is indicating. I do however agree Benoit tarnished his legacy and as one of his former fans I can't say I'd hold him in the esteem I once did.

ibFoxer

[QUOTE=Mr.Nice Guy;65334690
I do however agree Benoit tarnished his legacy and as one of his former fans I can't say I'd hold him in the esteem I once did.[/QUOTE]

I have to say that i do, however, in doing so i'm seperating im seperating Benoit the Man from Benoit the Wrestler. I think it's a small bit unfair on his wrestling legacy to let it be completely destroyed by this. Does it sicken me to think of how his life, and his family's lives ended? Yes. Chris Benoit, as a private individual ended his life as a coward and a murderer. But then i remember all the great matches Chris was a part of as a WRESTLER and i seperate the two lives. IMHO i don't think his reputation deserves to be destroyed completely by the events of June 22-25. Should we not be able to remember Chris the WRESTLER, who gave us all so much in the ring for so many years, as someone we all respected for his ability in that ring? Or should he be remembered only for what happened at the end of his life? Honestly, i feel his memory as a wrestler deserves to be upheld in the archives. But again that is just my opinion.

flahavaj

I have no problem seperating Benoit the man from Benoit the wrestler.

Benoit was IMO the greatest in-ring worker who ever lived, nothing will ever change that and I still enjoy his matches.

What he did was appalling, there really are no words sufficient to describe how bad it was. But I also think that circumstances putside his control at leas partly can be attributed to what he did. The brain trauma he suffered over the years undoubtedly had a role to play in it, not to mention the cocktail of meds he regulalrly took.

I can't agree with much of what Morley says to be honest.

Jolt2007

I still watch his matches, but it's not that easy for me to separate Benoit the man and the wrestler especially since it seems highly likely the heavy toll from being the wrestler lead to what happened to the man at the end. I feel uneasy when he does something that would've contributed to the damage he took over the years but in the ring he was too great to ignore completely. It's a bitter sweet experience.