Prob way off with this but ...(spoilers if ur not up to date)

Jay Ru

Its interesting that Charlie was the person to appear in Des flash and that it was the memory of his death that helped Des see the other time line. Maybe that was the original purpose to Charlies death all along!. Des told Charlie that in order for Claire to get of the island in a Helicopter (which still didn't happen & if memory serves me everything else that Des predicted while he was on the island has come true, and this was a kinda to big of a prediction for it not to come true), Charlie wud have to die. Many his death was just one step in a long journey. I.E. Charlies death is the intial factor in alt Des discovery of the other timeline, which will in some way trigger some kind of rescue for maybe Claire and others.

dudeitshurley

Jay Ru wrote: »

Its interesting that Charlie was the person to appear in Des flash and that it was the memory of his death that helped Des see the other time line. Maybe that was the original purpose to Charlies death all along!. Des told Charlie that in order for Claire to get of the island in a Helicopter (which still didn't happen & if memory serves me everything else that Des predicted while he was on the island has come true, and this was a kinda to big of a prediction for it not to come true), Charlie wud have to die. Many his death was just one step in a long journey. I.E. Charlies death is the intial factor in alt Des discovery of the other timeline, which will in some way trigger some kind of rescue for maybe Claire and others.

I'm not sure if this makes sense. Firstly, why specifically charlie? Seems that a near-death experience has made alt-Des see the 'true' timeline and a glimpse of charlie dying. Why specifically charlie, surely the same could apply to any of them.

More to the point, i don't think the writers had any concept, notion or breeze whatsoever at that point in time about all of this sideways stuff. I like to think that, if they did, the the character of Donovan (his physicist friend) would surely have been Faraday from the outset. Perhaps not the actor but the role itself. Imagine the complexity and, well, mind-**** if all the way back in s3 he had been sitting in a pub with Faraday asking about time travel. Subsequently they introduced massive memory problems for Faraday so that would have theoretically made sense too.

I think it may be used retrospectively to make sense of everything. Perhaps. It really goes back to SP's theory about him flashing to the sideways in FBYE/The Constant and i think it's fair to say after Happily Ever After this is most certainly a dead dodo of a theory. So failing that they have to use some plot device to make it approach sensical.

Lastly, at the point in time of FBYE it was still a pretty massive thing for them to get off the island by any means. It's subsequently been shown that travel to/from the island is relatively straightforward; i would at least suggest at the time of the storyline re: charlies imminent death they really weren't completely sure where they were going with it.

Mr.Nice Guy

Jay Ru wrote:

Many his death was just one step in a long journey. I.E. Charlies death is the intial factor in alt Des discovery of the other timeline, which will in some way trigger some kind of rescue for maybe Claire and others.

But Des told Charlie Claire and her baby would be rescued:

CHARLIE: Come on, Des. You can tell me. I can take it.

[Pause]

DESMOND: What I saw, Charlie, was Claire and her baby getting into a helicopter. A helicopter that lifts off--leaves this Island.

Jay Ru

dudeitshurley wrote: »

I'm not sure if this makes sense. Firstly, why specifically charlie? Seems that a near-death experience has made alt-Des see the 'true' timeline and a glimpse of charlie dying. Why specifically charlie, surely the same could apply to any of them.

While Charlie was in the car and under the water it, he places his hand on the window and Des starts to get flashes of Charlie dying in the original timeline, which then turn to flashes of Des's live with Penny. Now what i'm saying is that Desmond done his best to keep Charlie alive for as long as he cud in the original time line but Charlie still died. We all no fate is a major theme in Lost. So, what if Charlie dying when he did was fate, it had to happen the way it did, ie him drowning, and placing his hand on window. Then jump forward to the alt timeline, after Des gets his flashes, which where triggered by Charlies actions, he then proceeds to start his mission off showing the passengers what they need to see. If Charlie hadn't of dying as he did then maybe now of this wud be possible.

There has to be some kind of connection between Charlie and Desmond. Charlie has appeared in Des's flashes on 2 seperate occasions, out of all the people on the island Des predicts Charlies death, then Charlie helps Desomd realise all is not well in there time line.


And maybe i missed it but how did the last ep blow S.P. theory out the water?

@ Mr Nice Guy, whos to say Aaron won't end up on the island before the end of the series?

Penn

Jay Ru wrote: »

While Charlie was in the car and under the water it, he places his hand on the window and Des starts to get flashes of Charlie dying in the original timeline, which then turn to flashes of Des's live with Penny. Now what i'm saying is that Desmond done his best to keep Charlie alive for as long as he cud in the original time line but Charlie still died. We all no fate is a major theme in Lost. So, what if Charlie dying when he did was fate, it had to happen the way it did, ie him drowning, and placing his hand on window. Then jump forward to the alt timeline, after Des gets his flashes, which where triggered by Charlies actions, he then proceeds to start his mission off showing the passengers what they need to see. If Charlie hadn't of dying as he did then maybe now of this wud be possible.

There has to be some kind of connection between Charlie and Desmond. Charlie has appeared in Des's flashes on 2 seperate occasions, out of all the people on the island Des predicts Charlies death, then Charlie helps Desomd realise all is not well in there time line.


And maybe i missed it but how did the last ep blow S.P. theory out the water?

@ Mr Nice Guy, whos to say Aaron won't end up on the island before the end of the series?

I think it's a very good theory. Charlie dying the way he did helped Desmond in the sideways to start realising something is wrong. This has a knock on effect. Without Charlie helping Desmond get the flashes of Penny, he never would have been searching for Penny, never met Daniel and never got to meet Penny

But I agree that SP's theory would seem to be flawed. Correct me if I'm wrong, but SP's theory was that FBYE or The Constant was Desmond actually flashing between the original timeline and the sideways. But in both of those episodes, he already knows Penny. Now we see that in the sideways, he has only just met Penny for the first time. It was a great theory, but seems to have been disproved with this episode. Which is a shame because the revelation that he's been flashing to the sideways would have been magnificent

FredBloggs

I think the fact Desmond told charlie he saw Claire and her baby getting off the island will be significant. They wouldn't have mentioned that without having a plan for its resolution. I wouldn't be suprised if its one of the final scenes - all the survivors of the original plane crash being rescued shortly after the crash (which would give time for her baby to be born - ie not a toddler as Aaron would be now). I'm not sure how this would come about given the alt etc. but it would be a major plot hole if it doesn't happen or at least isn't explained

Jay Ru

@Paddy - Thanks for clearing that up for me that up me

Mr.Nice Guy

I think maybe Des was getting flashes of alternate universes and that's why he saw Claire get in the helicopter. Maybe this DID happen but it required him using his free will.

Des seems to have a window into alternate realities and according to him he seems to think that by exercising free will he changes events. From Catch 22:

DESMOND: If the flashes don't happen exactly how I saw them, the picture changes. I was supposed to let you die Charlie.

CHARLIE: What's that supposed to mean?

DESMOND: It means its bloody pointless. I keep saving your life, and what good has it done? Its just gonna keep happening again and again, maybe that's the point eh? Maybe its a test.

CHARLIE: Test?

DESMOND: Like God, testing Abraham, except I failed, because I changed what I saw.

Maybe Des is wrong though and he was actually supposed to keep saving Charlie, even in The Looking Glass. Des thought Charlie was supposed to die based on information Eloise had told him about course correction. But Faraday felt Desmond was special. Perhaps Des unwittingly prevented Claire from getting rescued.

It was because of Desmond that Claire refused to join with Jack and instead went with Locke and his group. She didn't want Charlie's death to have been in vain. But if she had gone with Jack, Sun and others she could have ended up with the Oceanic Six and got on the helicopter Desmond saw.

The flashes were thus not a glimpse of the future but a POSSIBLE future which could only come about if Desmond exercised his free will.

In the recent episode - Eloise spoke of a 'violation' with Desmond enquring about Penny. Is this because he is exercising free will and not being resigned to his fate?

Thoughts?

Tigger

Excellent theory op
ill be interested to see if your right

Sad Professor

Yeah, 6x11 delivered a pretty fatal blow to my Sideways theory. I still think there's a lot of similarities between what happened to Desmond in FBYE and in HEA though.

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I think maybe Des was getting flashes of alternate universes and that's why he saw Claire get in the helicopter. Maybe this DID happen but it required him using his free will.

Des seems to have a window into alternate realities and according to him he seems to think that by exercising free will he changes events.

Yeah, this is what I'm leaning towards at the moment as well.

Perhaps Des unwittingly prevented Claire from getting rescued.

It was because of Desmond that Claire refused to join with Jack and instead went with Locke and his group. She didn't want Charlie's death to have been in vain. But if she had gone with Jack, Sun and others she could have ended up with the Oceanic Six and got on the helicopter Desmond saw.

Interesting, but I don't think it really works. Desmond told Charlie that he had to die in order for Claire to be rescued. How he knew this I don't know. Hurley was really the main cause of the group splitting. Without his speech (and Charlie's death) I'm not sure anyone would have gone with Locke. This is why Hurley was so apologetic to Jack later.

The flashes were thus not a glimpse of the future but a POSSIBLE future which could only come about if Desmond exercised his free will.

In the recent episode - Eloise spoke of a 'violation' with Desmond enquring about Penny. Is this because he is exercising free will and not being resigned to his fate??

I like this. Makes sense of a lot of stuff.

Hawking actually said "What happened, happened" to Desmond in this episode. "Whatever happened, happened" is the show's byword for fate. It ties in well with her earlier talk about "course correction", i.e. the future is written, there's no point fighting it. As you say, she was quite keen that Desmond believe this.

MIB said "Whatever happens, happens" to Claire in 6x10. So it seems he and Hawking are both on the side of fate, and perhaps each other. Christian (who we suspect may have been MIB) did tell Locke to seek out Hawking, remember. I'm not sure where this leaves Widmore.

Of course, all of this stands in contrast to Jacob's promotion of free will.