Ireland: The Road to Serfdom

Permabear

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meditraitor

donegalfella wrote: »

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To what ends "non serviam", for an individual its fine, cop out and f off. But for a nation it would result in chaos..... Fintan has a articluate mind but not very enlightening, the narrowness of his views is verging on comedy.

The whole servile thing is more psycological than anything else, everyone in their place and all

ei.sdraob

meditraitor wrote: »

The whole servile thing is more psycological than anything else

psychological?

is that what you call getting bills from the Revenue and knowing most of your hard earned money is being pissed away

that sucks away the will to work

Permabear

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CptMackey

In a way we are becoming serfs again.

The government brings in 35 billion a year in taxes (as far as I can remember)
They are burning as close as makes no difference to 20 billion in Anglo.

We will have to pay for this.

I think its fair to say that the economy is finished. They are just picking over the remains. We will soon be a third world country (if we are not already) ruled by "kings" who tell us that we must be patriotic and put our shoulder to the wheel.

We as a people should stand up and remove these people from power by what ever means or else we will never recover and all we will export are our young.

Long story short, serfs sounds about right for what we have become

moonpurple

OToole could be wrong if the greens could give us an election -now- where we decide on this debt option or we follow the remedy set out by david mcwilliams at www.sbpost.ie - default and let the chips fall where they may,

http://www.sbpost.ie/commentandanalysis/anglo-armageddon-is-a-myth-48370.html

temporary international rancour is better than international pity,contempt

meditraitor

ei.sdraob wrote: »

psychological?

is that what you call getting bills from the Revenue and knowing most of your hard earned money is being pissed away

that sucks away the will to work

Its not like we are all chained to a ball and made work 23 hours, 7 days a week.

Psycology explains some peoples need to have more, but some people are just happy with their lot. Greed is an aweful thing.

Permabear

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meditraitor

donegalfella wrote: »

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I am obviously not in the majority with my opinions on this particular matter but I firmly believe we have to take responsibility as a nation, we get the governance we deserve, the prevelance of greed in this country over the past 20 years has given rise to the situation we are in.....

Democratic capitalism is what the people want, yin and yang my good friend. If someone is gaining then almost invariably someone has to loose.

ei.sdraob

meditraitor wrote: »

Its not like we are all chained to a ball and made work 23 hours, 7 days a week.

Psycology explains some peoples need to have more, but some people are just happy with their lot. Greed is an aweful thing.

but majority of people in this country are chained via mortgage, negative equity, kids, place of work

anyone who can leave is leaving or has left

i myself was gonna leave, but decided to stay (snapped up a nice house in cash from distressed builder) why should i be forced out because of these clowns!
and instead have the profit generating chunk of my business leave the country sometime later this year, if you cant beat em join em I be damned if I ever again have to pay the higher tax rate again to the Brians to piss away

meditraitor wrote: »

Democratic capitalism is what the people want, yin and yang my good friend.

lol i call it tragedy of the commons

meditraitor wrote: »

If someone is gaining then almost invariably someone has to loose.

the 1000 odd people who drove this country into the wall are "gaining" and getting away, everyone else looses, "socialise the risks" as they say

meditraitor wrote: »

we get the governance we deserve.

is that it? we just give up like that? hundreds of years of British rule few decades of own rule and then all we are left is above?

Nuravictus

meditraitor wrote: »

I am obviously not in the majority with my opinions on this particular matter but I firmly believe we have to take responsibility as a nation, we get the governance we deserve, the prevelance of greed in this country over the past 20 years has given rise to the situation we are in.....

Democratic capitalism is what the people want, yin and yang my good friend. If someone is gaining then almost invariably someone has to loose.

When we take respobsiblity as a Individual and realise others wont clean up our mess, we get the governance we deserve.

meditraitor

ei.sdraob wrote: »

but majority of people in this country are chained via mortgage, negative equity, kids, place of work

anyone who can leave is leaving or has left

i myself was gonna leave, but decided to stay (snapped up a nice house in cash from distressed builder) why should i be forced out because of these clowns!
and instead have the profit generating chunk of my business leave the country sometime later this year, if you cant beat em join em I be damned if I ever again have to pay the higher tax rate again to the Brians to piss away



lol i call it tragedy of the commons



the 1000 odd people who drove this country into the wall are "gaining" and getting away, everyone else looses, "socialise the risks" as they say

I could leave tomorrow and easily find employment in another country but I am content for now, I dont have any misapprehensions about the dreadfull situation Ireland has found itself in or why we are here. We(maybe not personally but democratically) chose to ignore the obvious wrongdoings and political mistakes of the last 2 decades because we (not me) had our 60 inch plasma's, new bmws and crappy cardboard houses in crappy suburbs.
The majority of people were fooled into thinking they needed these things and once the got them they thought, great...... The price was not evident but anyone with half a brain could see that if you are earning 50k a year then borrowing 400k was a dumbass idea.

A nation of fools run by a cadre of greedy bastards, this is the capitalist way.....

Your already a serf, deal with it and move on

ei.sdraob

meditraitor wrote: »

I could leave tomorrow and easily find employment in another country but I am content for now, I dont have any misapprehensions about the dreadfull situation Ireland has found itself in or why we are here. We(maybe not personally but democratically) chose to ignore the obvious wrongdoings and political mistakes of the last 2 decades because we (not me) had our 60 inch plasma's, new bmws and crappy cardboard houses in crappy suburbs.
The majority of people were fooled into thinking they needed these things and once the got them they thought, great...... The price was not evident but anyone with half a brain could see that if you are earning 50k a year then borrowing 400k was a dumbass idea.

ok I agree with you there, yes the people of this country are also partially responsible

whats worse some have not learned a lesson, see parallel thread with members asking why cant they get 100% mortgage (:eek:!) or why is the regulator suddenly doings its job (ffs like :rolleyes:)

so yes i suppose, some people should suffer and are suffering for being the bigger fools

the problem is that our taxation system does not differentiate between people who stayed out of the madness and those who dived in, in fact it rewards recklessness via mortgage relief/credits and paying more money the more kids you have via welfare (what no economy of scale or passing on clothes/toys between kids in family?)

there are people who stayed out of the bubble and worked hard/saved are are now being made to pay for mistakes of others, that is very unfair (yes that much abused word!) what worse is their children will still be paying for gambles taken on by Sean and Fingers, i could understand the OPs anger considering he has a child who will be also paying for this

meditraitor wrote: »

A nation of fools run by a cadre of greedy bastards, this is the capitalist way.....

the capitalist way (well one branch of it at least) also calls for rotten companies to go bankrupt (yes that includes banks) and to liquidate and clear our the mess as quickly as possible
we very well could have been on road to recovery now, instead we havent even reached the stage of acceptance and understanding of what happened, and of course there's no apology and enquiries in sight

meditraitor wrote: »

Your already a serf, deal with it and move on

damn you are a beacon of happiness today aint you ? yes I realize that im personally being shafted for mistakes of others
as i said i am doing something about it

tho alot of people can not do anything about being raped as they are now

orourkeda

Slavery? It seems a bit OTT doesnt it.

The choice exists not to play any part in this if you so wish. So to be told you are some kind of object is a little disconcerting.

meditraitor

ei.sdraob wrote: »

damn you are a beacon of happiness today aint you ? yes I realize that im personally being shafted for mistakes of others
as i said i am doing something about it

tho alot of people can not do anything about being raped as they are now

I dont like the tuedays after bank holidays

I am just sick to death of people blaming others for their misfortune...... Now when I say misfortune I am talking about compalints about only being able to take one holiday this year instead of 3. Not having enough money for that new fridge the misses like so much, not being able to go out on a saturday night and blow €300 on a bag of coke and a few vodka's, not being able to spend €50k on their wedding, not being able to buy that new Apple ipad as soon as it lands in dublin airport.......


Sometimes I just want to grab them by the ears and explain that people are starving to death in sub saharan countries, being butchered in there houses by crazy religious nuts (USA, Isreal, Pakistan governements) all over the globe and all they care about is not having enough money for Fillet Steak, I say let them eat round steak...............

Nobody is in any real trouble in this country for sean fitzpatricks sins, they borowed and lived above their station so let them deal with it...

Scofflaw

orourkeda wrote: »

Slavery? It seems a bit OTT doesnt it.

The choice exists not to play any part in this if you so wish. So to be told you are some kind of object is a little disconcerting.

It's strange that those who advocate leaving now the debts have to be paid didn't advocate leaving while they were being racked up. I was here for the party, even if I didn't get much out of it, I'll stay for the clean-up. It's my country, after all.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Eliot Rosewater

meditraitor wrote: »

We(maybe not personally but democratically) chose to ignore the obvious wrongdoings

I am trying to figure out what "we democratically choose to ignore the obvious wrongdoings" actually means. How do 4+ million people collectively ignore the obvious wrongdoings? Perhaps it's based on the continuing false premise that the citizens of the country are a homogeneous group of people to which one can attach such statements, provided the majority satisfy it. It's incorrect, in my opinion. We need to start separating the "majority" from the "collective". They are two distinct things, even if the former can foist itself on the latter.

And all of this "collective responsibility" rhetoric is just window dressing. You take the act of forcing responsible citizens (those who saved for the bad times; those who didn't buy into the boom) into giving money to irresponsible citizens (those who gambled it all) and call it "societal responsibility" to make it sound honourable. You then accuse the dissenting elements of coping out to make them sound bad.


Back to the OP. I agree with the sentiment. As it stands I don't see any way this country can rid itself of the culture of entitlement and the strangle hold of the Unions in the short to medium term. Praise be to Ryanair and all the other private sector companies who make leaving this country so easy! :pac:

Eliot Rosewater

Scofflaw wrote: »

I was here for the party, even if I didn't get much out of it, I'll stay for the clean-up. It's my country, after all.

Thats a fair attitude. However as someone who's only starting his adult life now, I don't feel any sense of obligation towards the modern Ireland I've found myself in. My family didn't buy into the boom. Yeah, I'm getting the "free" undergrad degree here, but what else do I owe?

meditraitor

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

I am trying to figure out what "we democratically choose to ignore the obvious wrongdoings" actually means. :

As a nation we ignored the realities because we were sucking from the tits of the banks, anyone who stopped feeding for a few minutes to look around could tell you that, your parents included........

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

How do 4+ million people collectively ignore the obvious wrongdoings? :

As above

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

Perhaps it's based on the continuing false premise that the citizens of the country are a homogeneous group of people to which one can attach such statements, provided the majority satisfy it.:

What has that got to do with the price of cabbage, did you read this somewere and decide you needed to quote it? makes no sense!

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

It's incorrect, in my opinion. We need to start separating the "majority" from the "collective". They are two distinct things, even if the former can foist itself on the latter.:

As above, its not relevent..... and even more silly,

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

And all of this "collective responsibility" rhetoric is just window dressing. :

Window dressing for what? If you live in a democratic society the collective responsibilty is reasonable and required..

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

You take the act of forcing responsible citizens (those who saved for the bad times; those who didn't buy into the boom) into giving money to irresponsible citizens (those who gambled it all) and call it "societal responsibility" to make it sound honourable. :

Honourable it isnt, how you got that from my posts I will never know. If you hide your head in the sand of blame then you could reasonably think you dont owe society anything but if you decide to take your head out of your arse for a few minutes and look around then you might see that life is not always rosey and you have to take a few knocks, its called growing up and taking responsibilty.
The childish rhethoric of " I didn't do it Mammy, so Im not going to help fix it" didnt work when you were younger so why do you think it will work now?

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

You then accuse the dissenting elements of coping out to make them sound bad.:

I am sick to my teeth of people moaning and not taking responsibilty, they do sound bad..... So I will continue to say GROW UP

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

Back to the OP. I agree with the sentiment. As it stands I don't see any way this country can rid itself of the culture of entitlement and the strangle hold of the Unions in the short to medium term. Praise be to Ryanair and all the other private sector companies who make leaving this country so easy! :pac:

Did someone else post the last paragraph?

Permabear

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meditraitor

donegalfella wrote: »

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Did you take this from Sean Fitzpatricks diary?

ei.sdraob

meditraitor wrote: »

Did you take this from Sean Fitzpatricks diary?

where can I buy one?


seems that being honest and descent person doesnt get you far in life, may as well learn from the best

Scofflaw

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

Thats a fair attitude. However as someone who's only starting his adult life now, I don't feel any sense of obligation towards the modern Ireland I've found myself in. My family didn't buy into the boom. Yeah, I'm getting the "free" undergrad degree here, but what else do I owe?

You don't "owe" anything, any more than I do. You can choose to stay or go quite freely. My own choice is based on wanting to make Ireland work because it's my country. If I live in the UK, 0% of my taxes will go towards Ireland's issues - a rate even lower than that achieved here.

Things have been done over the last dozen years that I would prefer not to have been done. I didn't vote for the people concerned, and I didn't gain from the boom (if anything, it just made my life more expensive), since most of my client base was unaffected by it. None of that matters.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Scofflaw

donegalfella wrote: »

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I wish I was surprised, but libertarians are libertarians.

glumly,
Scofflaw

sirromo

I think we should do something like they were supposed to have done at the battle of the Alamo. We draw a metaphorical line in the metaphorical sand. The people who want to give up on this country will be asked to move to one side of the line while the rest will have the option to remain on the other side. The people who want to give up on the country will be encouraged to renounce their Irish citizenship and will be given the opportunity and the means to start a new job and new life in a new country. The rest of the population will be told that they will face an uncertain future and that will be expected to make sacrifices in order to get this country back on its feet again.

Permabear

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patmar

sirromo wrote: »

I think we should do something like they were supposed to have done at the battle of the Alamo. We draw a metaphorical line in the metaphorical sand. The people who want to give up on this country will be asked to move to one side of the line while the rest will have the option to remain on the other side. The people who want to give up on the country will be encouraged to renounce their Irish citizenship and will be given the opportunity and the means to start a new job and new life in a new country. The rest of the population will be told that they will face an uncertain future and that will be expected to make sacrifices in order to get this country back on its feet again.

Great idea ! Bit expensive though so I would like a start made with people like O Toole, Arnold, Downey, Lynch, Dunphy, Hook, Hobbs and about 20 others. After watching Bruton and Burton on Vincent browne last wek I am having nightmares at the tought of them coming in to government so maybe they could also be given a few bob and a one way ticket out of the country

The Raven.

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

I am trying to figure out what "we democratically choose to ignore the obvious wrongdoings" actually means. How do 4+ million people collectively ignore the obvious wrongdoings? Perhaps it's based on the continuing false premise that the citizens of the country are a homogeneous group of people to which one can attach such statements, provided the majority satisfy it. It's incorrect, in my opinion. We need to start separating the "majority" from the "collective". They are two distinct things, even if the former can foist itself on the latter.

And all of this "collective responsibility" rhetoric is just window dressing. You take the act of forcing responsible citizens (those who saved for the bad times; those who didn't buy into the boom) into giving money to irresponsible citizens (those who gambled it all) and call it "societal responsibility" to make it sound honourable. You then accuse the dissenting elements of coping out to make them sound bad.

Very well said, Eliot. I have been trying to get this point across here and here in the JFK thread, in more simple and direct language, but you have expressed it very articulately above.

Back to the OP. I agree with the sentiment. As it stands I don't see any way this country can rid itself of the culture of entitlement and the strangle hold of the Unions in the short to medium term.

I have to say that I’m torn apart on the issue of the unions, having been, in the past, on both sides of the coin. I grew up with an anti-union bias due to a strike in the family business, with devastating consequences. I later came to appreciate the value of the unions as a safeguard against ruthless employers. However, in the current situation, notwithstanding the intrinsic problems of industrial dispute, I can’t help taking a spontaneous satisfaction in seeing at least one section of society refusing to be browbeaten by the discriminate measures taken by this government in favour of the perpetrators of economic devastation.

Scofflaw

donegalfella wrote: »

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Short of our tax money going to fund genocide, the answer is no, there is no point where not paying taxes is the more socially responsible choice, much as some might wish that to be the case. Even under those circumstances, it would be more socially responsible to try and stop the genocide by other means than withholding taxes, unless your taxes were 100% going to fund the genocide, and the genocide was 100% tax funded.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Permabear

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meditraitor

ei.sdraob wrote: »

where can I buy one?


seems that being honest and descent person doesnt get you far in life, may as well learn from the best

It does seem like that sometimes, I must admit.

Maybe its just that I am happy with what I have, monetarily its bugger all, dont have much but dont owe anything.
Working harder, longer and more stress- but at the end of the day I go home to the misses and little and life is good......

I would love to pay less tax, have more stuff and be able to spend less time in work but hey thats just the way it is for us grunts:D

The Raven.

donegalfella wrote: »

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Donegalfella, I am fully aware of that. I don't for a single minute underestimate the exorbitance of their demands. The same type of exorbitance occurred in a microcosmic way in our family business, which caused it to close down. I don’t approve of that type of greedy, shortsighted behaviour. My point relates to a side effect, which at least threatens this government’s decision to take punitive measures that are not fairly spread across the board.

Eliot Rosewater

meditraitor wrote: »

As a nation we ignored the realities...

What do you mean "as a nation"? Do you just mean the majority? As I said, my family didn't buy into the boom, why have you lumped us in with your "as a nation"?

The Raven. wrote: »

I later came to appreciate the value of the unions as a safeguard against ruthless employers.

I completely agree. There was another thread where one poster suggested that the unions be banned - but I would not want this. Unions can provide a good mechanism for employee and employer engagement provided there's realistic expectations on both sides.

The problem is, more specifically, the public sector unions. They can afford to be unrealistic because, unlike private sector workers, they can never be laid off. If I owned a business in this recession and my employees were acting the way the Passport workers have acted I'd have little choice but to get rid of them. But this wont happen in the public sphere; the unions can make their unrealistic and damaging demands because the Government isn't subject to the same economic constraints private businesses are. They can just increase tax and borrowing at will.

Permabear

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Truthrevolution

Yes we are definitely on the road to serfdom (slavery).The media like to portray that we the public now own the banks but in reality the banks now own us and we are their economic servants, anybody who cant see that i feel sorry for them.This problem is not exclusive to Ireland.The US and most european countries are also bailing out the banking institutions using taxpayers money.
A lot of you guys here are under the illusion that if you move to a different country then you will be safe.All western countries are eventually going to default with catastrophic consequences, think of it as the Greek situation on steroids.......
The banking problem thus needs to be tackled on an international level, simply tackling our own shower of bankers will not get us very far.We would have the IMF, world bank, ECB as well as all the other Rothschild owned institutions breathing down our necks.People need to stop co-operating with the system as its the only way to defeat it.
If you want to hurt the banks there are two possible solutions
1 - Rather than go to the bank for a loan try an independant credit institution.
2 - Take all your savings out and invest it in safe haven commodities like gold, silver, platinum or even oil.

The Raven.

donegalfella wrote: »

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By ‘punitive’ I simply meant it in the sense that it was the opposite of ‘beneficial’; nothing more. In addition to this, I wasn’t comparing public and private sector cuts. I don’t wish to get into a lengthy discussion on the issue but there is also disparity within the public sector. Last February, Richard Bruton had this to say:

655 senior public servants [exempted] from the full impact of pay cuts in the public services is unfair and unjustifiable.

• It is unfair because it means people on the lowest pay in the public service will see a reduction in their take home pay of 5%, but these priviledged [sic] people will just escape with just a third of that cut.

• It is unjustified, because it flies in the face of the recommendation of the Independent Review Group on higher renumeration [sic] who recommended a cut of between 8% and 12% for this group.

[…]

The Financial Emergency legislation which introduced pay cuts was viewed by most people as already very unfair in that it asked those on lowest pay to take bigger proportionate cuts in their disposable income than those further up the earnings ladder. This was a hard pill for low-paid people to swallow and has caused great resentment across the public service. A decision to rebalance this deal to make it even more unfair to the lower paid was an extraordinary and exceptional decision to make. The Minister must prove that this was made in conformity with the strictures set out for the exercise of such power.

http://richardbruton.ie/2010/02/10/655-civil-servants-exempted-from-full-impact-of-pay-cut/

ei.sdraob

the original version of the book OP mentioned from 1946 can be read here

http://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B1Fz-JJAA3vaM2QxNzliMjUtODZiMi00YWIyLWFhNzMtMDNlNWViNGQ3YTJl&hl=en

Anonymous1987

Hayek on the role of the legislation in competitive markets;

"In no system that could be rationally defended would the state just do nothing. An effective competitive system needs an intelligently designed and continuously adjusted legal framework as much as any other. Even the most essential prerequisite of its proper functioning the prevention of fraud and deception (including exploitation of ignorance) provides a great and by no means yet fully accomplished object of legislative activity."

Our regulatory framework needs careful revision. Hayek recognised that while markets are mostly efficient, without the right framework in place they can be abused and lead to inefficient outcomes.

Pride Fighter

I'd agree that we are going back to serfdom.

What I'd disagree with is in relation to Donegalfella's ideological position about big government. I'd agree that welfare payments and wages expanded too much in the good times and that too many where employed in certain areas of the public sector. What I disagree with is that the government was not big enough and domineering in certain sectors, particularly finance and banking. If we had big, nosy government regulating our banking sector we would not be in the mess we'd be in now. Just look at Canada, with its strict regulation.

I believe that big government is the answer. Proper rules and regulations can ensure we never have the same mess and problems we had in the recent past. What we had was big government in certain areas and a buying off of various vested interests with Fianna Fails blank cheque book. Either way, the best way to escape serfdom is to completely wipe out Fianna Fail and never have them in power again.

ei.sdraob

ah yes we didnt have enough government, we need more

.

Anonymous1987

What good is a financial market free from regulation if it operates in such a way that puts the entire economic system in danger? The banks were giving out loans with little regard for the consequences to both their own companies and the broader economy, is that a healthy functioning market economy? A revision of the regulatory system does not necessarily require a greater role for government it simply means adjustments to the market rules in light of serious systematic failures. We can't regulate for poor business models but we can push for greater transparency and accountability that may increase market efficiency and limit the fall out from the normal process of creative destruction.

ei.sdraob

Anonymous1987 wrote: »

What good is a financial market free from regulation if it operates in such a way that puts the entire economic system in danger? The banks were giving out loans with little regard for the consequences to both their own companies and the broader economy, is that a healthy functioning market economy? A revision of the regulatory system does not necessarily require a greater role for government it simply means adjustments to the market rules in light of serious systematic failures. We can't regulate for poor business models but we can push for greater transparency and accountability that may increase market efficiency and limit the fall out from the normal process of creative destruction.

what we need is not more government as @Pride Fighter said earlier

but for the existing regulator to upheld existing laws and regulations (do its job, gasp!) of which there are plenty, more importantly to keep these regulations up to date to keep up with any financial "innovations"

dont forget that banks didnt decide out of the blue to start lending recklessly,

no it took interference from central banks playing with rates and a generation of bankers who never seen a bad day, and of course the rollback of laws such as the Glass–Steagall Act

and of course there needs to be separation between government, judges and bankers, wasnt our minister dinning with Anglo boys before the mess?

K-9

ei.sdraob wrote: »

ah yes we didnt have enough government, we need more

.

True, but probably even truer is, we didn't have enough Regulation, we need more. That will cause short term pain, but it is best in the long run.

Macha

ei.sdraob wrote: »

dont forget that banks didnt decide out of the blue to start lending recklessly,

no it took interference from central banks playing with rates and a generation of bankers who never seen a bad day, and of course the rollback of laws such as the Glass–Steagall Act

Morgan Kelly demonstrates in this paper that lowered interest rates had a negligible impact on lending. THe LTV % was a much more important factor.