RTE HD ?

bk

d8player wrote: »

Its an interesting point but I would be surprised if RTE try to provide HD without anything extra in it for them.

What is in it for RTE is not losing market share to BBC HD and ITV HD, as they already have for the recent Rugby matches.

RTE need to have a HD solution in place before the next world cup or they could be in serious trouble.

Elmo wrote: »

Again I would be worried that as more foreign and larger companies go on DTT FTA that they would look towards taking advertising from the Irish market. Sure a move like that would be worth at least 25% of the advertising market, one that is already shrinking.

Foreign companies have never really been a major threat to RTE, remember, Ireland already has one of the highest multichannel take up rates in the world. RTE has been competing successfully with foreign broadcasters from day one.

No, what RTE fears (or at least should fear) is that DTT doesn't take off and that people move over the Freesat in large numbers. Freesat, a platform where RTE doesn't exist. If people can't get RTE or have to juggle two remotes and two separate STB's then RTE's market share would likely decrease quickly.

I've mixed feelings about Easy TV winning the license, on the one hand, RTE should have always been the ones to rollout DTT in a Freeview type format. On the other hand I hate to see UPC get even more power in the Irish DTT market.

One interesting angle, this could be an opportunity for UPC to switch off it's analogue cable TV service, replace it with a combined DTT/Cale TV box, with DTT supplying the old anaolgue channels and thus freeing up space on cable for more channels, HD and broadband.

Sam Russell

RTE would gain enormously if the launch with RTE1 HD and RTE2 HD.

1. They would not have to limp along like the BBC HD, simulcasting stuff, and then hobbled by the need to schedule around HD sport content with HD drama content normally being shown at that time. Having all channels in HD would put them ahead of the game.

2. HD could be kept to DTT platform, giving viewers the incentive to invest early in DTT HD equipment. Given that 60% should be able to receive it with a simple (rabbit ears) antenna, and 90% of the population will be covered from day one, there should be no problem with this. Otherwise, they do not go HD for a long time, and then duplicate, not a good solution.

3. It would put them in the driving position for advertising.

4. It would give the viewer less to complain about.

HD is everywhere at the moment. Remember when they went colour, only the news was in colour, and a few other programmes.

bk

Elmo I don't think it is much of a danger. Remember, 80% of homes are multichannel already, RTE already competes effectively with all of these channels on UPC and Sky.

We are only talking about adding the extra channels to the remaining 20% of the market.

And in many ways it is a great opportunity for RTE, if they launch some cheap new channels like RTE 3 (US shows at primetime) and RTE 4 (repeats channel).

No, the danger for RTE is Freesat and Freeview (spillover), they really need to do something about that.

Sam, I think RTE should launch RTE 1 and 2 HD from day one on DTT. Don't even bother with a SD version, the DTT boxes can down convert for SD TV's.

Initially just go for the cheap approach, do studio upconversion of SD to HD for all non HD content and obviously show native HD where available (all the US shows and sports).

They can switch other content to HD as it becomes available and they get HD cameras etc.

I disagree with keeping the HD channels on just DTT, RTE don't really care what platform they are on, just what advertising money they get.

Sam Russell

bk wrote: »

I disagree with keeping the HD channels on just DTT, RTE don't really care what platform they are on, just what advertising money they get.

Up until ASO, I think it should be kept DTT only, to make sure they have a marketing advantage over $ky, and UPC. After ASO, they can review the policy. They are not short of bandwidth, and have four muxes to play with if Onevision sees the light and makes for the door. Remeber, all viewers have to do, in 90% of cases, is to get a STB and external antenna. In 60% of cases, not even the external antenna. No subscription. No commitment.

This is the 50th anniversary of RTE TV. It would be good to do something very forward looking to celebrate.

BoredNaMoaner

Well, fulfilling the role of a public broadcaster and delivering modern technology in a timely fashion seems to be the least likely motivating factor of the DTT rollout. A cynic might remark that the prolonged struggle with DTT through the centuries was due to the heroic efforts of finding some way of squeezing cash from the public, rather than just to give it away for free as in the UK. Any sense of haste at this point is probably more due to acute embarrassment of our republic being in last place in the EU for DTT rollout. And also due to the realization that RTE could essentially be orphaned through widescale adoption of Freeview/Freesat. Now everyone is harping on about HD, is this not the same DVB-T2 technology who's STB were being criticized as being to expensive on these boards? Surely the SAORVIEW standards would be a more natural starting point for a service, or is the consensus swinging towards more complex standards now due to all the delays???

Apogee

BoredNaMoaner wrote: »

Now everyone is harping on about HD, is this not the same DVB-T2 technology who's STB were being criticized as being to expensive on these boards?

No, it isn't. Video compression and signal modulation are not the same thing.

scath

Sam Russell wrote: »

RTE would gain enormously if the launch with RTE1 HD and RTE2 HD....

Problem launching RTÉ1 HD etc is cost...from talking with someone over there in 2008, the cost of upgrading camera equipment and studios to HD is quite abit. Its not the best time for RTÉ at the moment revenue wise. Alot being spent on DTT, less advertising revenue. Of course for some of the programming is made by independent production companies so they would have to invest in HD equipment and would probably want to charge RTÉ more for the programming I would guess. So there's a cost involved in RTÉ1 going HD. My understanding is its not just about HD transmission. Its also HD cameras etc...

i think that is part of their http://www.rte.ie/about/project2025/ that to wait til 2025 would be crackers. I guess their thinking is that this upgrade would last into 2025. So they'd want to be planning to bring it into fruition in say 5 years time. Planning could take them into 2012/13 then 2 years to build. Switch-on by 2015. They should have been planning for this back in 10 years ago though! But they had a slightly deaf government ear towards that. Now they're playing catch-up again...

Broadcasting is not just about decisions, although sometimes decisiveness is lacking in Ireland. Its about money and finance. The business case for RTÉ is much tougher than for the BBC so to understand that we have to factor that in as much as we prefer to compare as if like with like. So my understanding was not to expect RTÉ HD before 2012.

Sam Russell

BoredNaMoaner wrote: »

Surely the SAORVIEW standards would be a more natural starting point for a service, or is the consensus swinging towards more complex standards now due to all the delays???

The SAORview standard calls for HD, quite clearly. MPEG4 @HPL4 which is HD. Therefore HD could be done from the start. Also, the SD material could be upscaled at the studio point, so that all that would be required would be two units that could upscale, one for RTE1 and one for RTE2. Minimal cost in the scale of things. SIZE=1][I]pardon the pun[/I][/SIZE

It saves a whole lot of transition in the future. They gradually introduced colour before, and could do the same with HD. Much of the bought in material is already in HD, particularly films and US imports.

They would then be ahead of the game for once.

tlaavtech

Sam Russell wrote: »

The SAORview standard calls for HD, quite clearly. MPEG4 @HPL4 which is HD. Therefore HD could be done from the start. Also, the SD material could be upscaled at the studio point, so that all that would be required would be two units that could upscale, one for RTE1 and one for RTE2. Minimal cost in the scale of things. SIZE=1][I]pardon the pun[/I][/SIZE

It saves a whole lot of transition in the future. They gradually introduced colour before, and could do the same with HD. Much of the bought in material is already in HD, particularly films and US imports.

They would then be ahead of the game for once.

The HD option is more expensive across the board. When the Bond movies were availible in HD, ITV refused them because of the extra expense so Sky picked up the rights instead. Even if the US shows are supplied in HD, RTE may not have the rights to broadcast them in HD.

Also, if the channels were in HD, RTE would immediately be under pressure to broadcast where possible in HD.

The new news studio is fully HD but is run SD. All the live uplinks for the news bulletins are also SD uplinks with SD equipment - HD is more bandwidth and more expense. You can't keep mixing HD and SD footage in the programme - it would be too annoying.

All news aquisition is still in SD, even though all the cameras are HD cameras (Sony XDCAM) but they are still set to record in SD (DVCAM). This I find rather sad, since as far as I am concerned, every second of footage that is shot should be considered archive footage for coming generations - the least you can do is shoot it in HD since the cameras have that ability.

Why do they still shoot in SD? Editing and archive. It is much easier and takes a lot less computing power and time to edit in HD, and requires less bandwidth on the internal network to pass the footage around, and to store it.

Sam Russell

The whole point of going HD from the start is to save the inevitable change later. All programme material is upscaled, always, from the start, with exceptions such as sport. Then, programme by programme, HD is intoduced. The details are better worked out by those that know a lot more than I do.

All I am saying, we do not want a repeat of 405/625 nonsense of 50 years ago when RTE had to broadcast in old technology as well, just to keep legacy TVs working. Nowadays, TVs are cheap [well, relatively] and if anyone has to get new kit, they will. In a way RTErelays was an escape from 405 for them. HD from the start solves a lot of future problems and causes little problems now. RTE are already committed to going HD, and it makes sense to do it now. It wastes much more bandwidth to have simulcasts in HD and SD.

You know it makes sense.:)

Sponge Bob

Hmm yahh , it is not so long since they used 16mm for news anyway. SD is OK for archiving purposes compared to out of synch 16mm

I think HD should be used for sports first and then news. Using HD for the hurling and the 6 nations would be a start. They certainly have enough capacity on the PS mux if they suspend the rolling news while the sport is on.

They would need 4x - 5x the uplink capacity for outside broadcast over SD don't forget.

At least 25% of homes can now physically view 720p at least ( with the right decoder) but they should go with 1180p or nothing IMO.

tlaavtech

If RTE launched "HD" and then broadcast almost everything in SD, can you imagine the outcry? I can hear the "banana "republic" "backwards telly" "don't know their ass from their elbow" brigade screaming for countless pages on forums like this.

I would be thrilled if RTE DTT launched in HD, but it won't happen. hey can't afford a full HD service, and would be seen as a laughing stock if they ran SD on HD bandwidth. The money just isn't there.The advantage of launching HD later is that you can do it with a fanfare.

The 31st October deadline is the Minister saying to the commercal arm "We are starting - If you want to be in from the start, this is where the start is."

slegs

One other downside of broadcasting in HD is that it takes a huge amount of data and high disk speeds to record. Fore example HD to a USB stick is generally not possible but SD will work fine.

That said I would be in favour of a RTE HD channel a la BBC HD which would be the best compromise in my opinion

Sam Russell

slegs wrote: »

That said I would be in favour of a RTE HD channel a la BBC HD which would be the best compromise in my opinion

The problem with a single HD channel, as the Beeb found out, is that some programmes are shown live in HD, like the six nations rugby, and cannot be deferred. Drama, which can be deferred, can clash. So on BBC1 the drama is shown at its normal time in SD, while the HD shows the BBC2 content - 6 nations, and the HD drama is deferred. So confused viewers become angry viewers.

ITV1 HD is such a service as I am suggesting. It shows SD content upscaled for 80% of the time. No laughter in the streets, no confusion, no complaints, no calls of 'banana monarchy'. No, they are applauded for getting off the daft 'red button' service they had before, for progressing their service.

All this is dealt with if RTE go HD from the start. Maybe upscaled is only 720p, or even 720i, for daytime. But bandwidth is not a problem when you have four muxes, and four channels to play with. Remember the spec calls for HD as a 'must have' in iDTVs and STBs.

Kensington

Sam Russell wrote: »

ITV1 HD is such a service as I am suggesting. It shows SD content upscaled for 80% of the time. No laughter in the streets, no confusion, no complaints, no calls of 'banana monarchy'. No, they are applauded for getting off the daft 'red button' service they had before, for progressing their service.

There's quite a few threads over on Digital Spy full of people whinging and moaning that almost all content on ITV HD is upscaled.

Elmo

Sam Russell wrote: »

The problem with a single HD channel, as the Beeb found out, is that some programmes are shown live in HD, like the six nations rugby, and cannot be deferred. Drama, which can be deferred, can clash. So on BBC1 the drama is shown at its normal time in SD, while the HD shows the BBC2 content - 6 nations, and the HD drama is deferred. So confused viewers become angry viewers.

I don't see why this should be the case. The audience understand that EastEnders will be repeated on BBC Three at 10pm, BBC HD should be no different. The BBC HD channel should be used as a catch up service or a first time services with SD channels catching up on dramas. BBC HD is a channel on its own, and should be advertised as such.

Would RTÉ One and Two be able for a schedule of purely HD programming?

Sam Russell

Kensington wrote: »

There's quite a few threads over on Digital Spy full of people whinging and moaning that almost all content on ITV HD is upscaled.

Are they saying they prefered the 'red button' service? They prefered never knowing what would be HD?

At least ITV1 can move to increase their HD content over the coming years, much the same way as RTE introduced colour.

horse7

rte hd gone down? (dublin)

fat-tony

zombie thread alert :eek: