Gerry Thornley Responds.

jack01986

Gerry Thornley responds to his Article last week. I think he did well here fair play to him for acknowledging his mistake.

This is the part of the relevant article. http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2010/0406/1224267751806.html

Last week’s column certainly generated a fair old response, much of it angry, much of it reasoned and all of it fairly impassioned. Clearly, the increasingly bitter rivalry between a small proportion of the respective Munster and Leinster fans has even turned some true rugby fans on both sides of the provincial divide away from this fixture.
In seeking to highlight this unwelcome problem, it was a mistake to cite anecdotal evidence only from Munster supporters. For the many irate Leinster fans out there, especially those who count themselves as Irish rugby fans willing to cheer for Munster, Connacht or Ulster when their own province is not playing, genuine apologies.
As stated, it was not the intention to apportion blame, but it may have come across that way.
Furthermore, in seeking to highlight this problem, the column may have only fuelled it, which is also regrettable, and the best of luck to the many responsible supporters on both sides who are doing their damndest to ensure old customs die hard.
On the pitch it remains a healthy rivalry, and a bit of banter between rival fans is no harm. But clearly the small minority who have used this rivalry to vent their spleen come from both sides of the provincial fence. Once again, as accepted, the media are partly to blame. Indeed, Leinster were subjected to far more ribbing over the years than Munster, or anyone else for that matter, and there is no need to cite some of the adjectives regularly ascribed to them.
There’s a minority of villains in red as well as blue, and the baiting was clearly as evident at Thomond Park on Friday, especially in the booing that greeted Leo Cullen and the heckling that was afforded Jonathan Sexton.
There’s also a host of anecdotal evidence out there from Leinster fans who have been subjected to some pretty horrendous comments and invective from Munster supporters over the years.
Put another way, this column is far more aware of the, eh, “niceties” in this inter-provincial rivalry a week on.
It’s also hard to retain one’s equilibrium when on the receiving end, and often it is true rugby fans who are picked on. All of which is ironic, really, for who in their formative years ever would have said they hailed from Leinster or Munster? It’s an entirely new identity.
It’s also difficult for the vast majority who are true rugby fans to uphold some time-honoured traditions, such as the silence afforded to kickers. Many tried in Thomond Park on Friday night, but how can you force silence upon those determined to break with tradition? In truth, the silence can often be deadlier than the jeering, in that it probably spooks kickers more to have such an unusual and unnerving stillness.
A great many readers were also glad the problem had been highlighted. Some suggested there be a supporters’ code of conduct, with perhaps the relevant branches giving a lead.
Perhaps it’s naive to think that this trend can be arrested. Perhaps the horse has bolted and it’s an inevitable product of the increased success and popularity of Irish rugby and the provinces. If so, it’s a shame.
But despite this, the vast majority out there retain a desire to cheer for the other Irish provinces when their own team is not playing. So here’s to three Irish wins in Europe this weekend.

smurphy29

Yes, fair play to Gerry for putting his hand up and clearing this up. I didn't think he'd been intentionally biased, but I did write to him to say that I was unhappy with the slant of the piece. I'm a huge fan of his - had it been a lesser journo I probably wouldn't have been as upset.

In terms of moving forward, and onwards, I think the supporters' code of conduct idea is not a bad one by any means. Management of both teams sought to downplay the on-field rivalry a few years ago after one match descended into mass-brawling - perhaps they should look to do the same with the off-pitch behaviour. Harder to control the masses, obviously, but it would be a positive step.

Trojan

Delighted to see Gerry acknowledge his mistakes in the last column, I was very disappointed with it, particularly coming up to the fixture he was fueling the fire.

Tim Robbins

I'd still to confirm where's his from - or club he was / is with?

It's very cryptic stuff.

thebaz

Tim Robbins wrote: »

I'd still to confirm where's his from - or club he was / is with?

It's very cryptic stuff.

from last weeks thread it appears Dublin , maybe Galway , but certainly not Munster ... tennis player with some links to DLSP, is what i picked up


anyway , better stuff from Gerry,

TitoPuente

Or, to summarise:

Hi. I'm Gerry Thornley and I hack a lot of my material from internet forums.

Micky Dolenz

I can't belive he has said those things about Munster, I must send him off an angry email.

(and so the cycle continues :pac:)

anonymous_joe

thebaz wrote: »

from last weeks thread it appears Dublin , maybe Galway , but certainly not Munster ... tennis player with some links to DLSP, is what i picked up


anyway , better stuff from Gerry,

He's a Conleths boy isn't he?

Anyway, he's a decent journo and held his hand up, so fair play to him.

Ciaran-Irl

Fair play to him.

toomevara

Well done Mr Thornley. A nuanced, gentlemanly and well thought out apology. fair play. Now, if only we can figure out a way of getting rid of the headbangers who are making a bollix out of it for the rest of us....

Micky Dolenz

toomevara wrote: »

Well done Mr Thornley. A nuanced, gentlemanly and well thought out apology. fair play. Now, if only we can figure out a way of getting rid of the headbangers who are making a bollix out of it for the rest of us....

I think it should be simple, one warning from stewards and then ejection from ground if found to be re-offending.

A warning in small print on ticket as disclaimer.

irishbucsfan

I was in Thomond park for the game and I thought everyone was excellently behaved. Certainly in comparison to other sports I've been to.

The arseholes who were shouting at Sexton (or any who shout at ROG in the RDS) need sorting out, hopefully the stewards will be able to control them better in future.


And of course I always cheer for other Irish provinces in Europe. In the Magners I'm occasionally encouraged by a Munster loss, but only because they're the only other team I'd be worried about Leinster losing to. (And also seeing as I'll be out of the country on the 29th, I'd prefer Munster finish 4th and get Leinster in the Semi-Final, so I'll be around to watch it)

anonymous_joe

toomevara wrote: »

Well done Mr Thornley. A nuanced, gentlemanly and well thought out apology. fair play. Now, if only we can figure out a way of getting rid of the headbangers who are making a bollix out of it for the rest of us....

In fairness, the more passionate your support, the more likely it is for people to act like bollockses.

If you've ever been to a Senior Cup game or whatever, the stuff the fans say and do is infinitely worse than anything at a Leinster/Munster game.

I blame all those shíte football hooligan movies. :pac:

frankie2shoes

Well done Gerry. Nice to see someone hold up there their hand when they've made a mistake. Now if only we could get Cowen et all to follow suit..............

danthefan

I'm not especially impressed. All he's done is effectively extended the original piece to cover Munster fans as well as Leinster fans.

LeeroyJones

danthefan wrote: »

I'm not especially impressed. All he's done is effectively extended the original piece to cover Munster fans as well as Leinster fans.

I think he's addressing an issue which unfortunately is creeping into the fixture so for that I think it was right of him to bring it up.
However it seems to me to me the amount of airtime it has gotten is out of proportion to the extent of the problem. I remember I did a poll before last years HCup Semi (http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055543214) which showed over 90% of Irish fans were happy to support a province that wasn't their own in the final(the majority of voters were from Munster and Leinster)
As it happened I remember going to the match sitting beside 2 groups of Munster fans on either side of me, all of which shook my hand before and after the match. The rivalry certainly was not lost on us and banter was had throughout the match.
I think similar stories were going on all over the stadium that day, and I'm sure again last Friday.
However, Thornley was addressing a real issue which has been creeping in and I hope this attention to it will help knock it on the head before it spreads.

subfreq

As an aside I still don't get why it's essential that we all cheer each others province on if our respective one isn't in a comp.

I think it's a redundant notion.

You support your team and in Rugby, hopefully you have a respect for the wider game and ultimately a love for your national jersey no matter who wears it.

I really think it's a false badge of moral one-up-manship to use this card every time a provincial rivalry debate fires up.

durkadurka

subfreq wrote: »

As an aside I still don't get why it's essential that we all cheer each others province on if our respective one isn't in a comp.

I think it's a redundant notion.

You support your team and in Rugby, hopefully you have a respect for the wider game and ultimately a love for your national jersey no matter who wears it.

I really think it's a false badge of moral one-up-manship to use this card every time a provincial rivalry debate fires up.

I think its ok not to support another province when yours is not playing. I don't think it's ok to support a foreign team against an irish province though. That's nasty and petty imo.

themont85

subfreq wrote: »

As an aside I still don't get why it's essential that we all cheer each others province on if our respective one isn't in a comp.

I think it's a redundant notion.

You support your team and in Rugby, hopefully you have a respect for the wider game and ultimately a love for your national jersey no matter who wears it.

I really think it's a false badge of moral one-up-manship to use this card every time a provincial rivalry debate fires up.

Well I'd always cheer an Irish province on provided they aren't playing Leinster, thats because I find it difficult to not cheer the lads who I'd cheer for in an Irish shirt. I have no issue though with people not taking this kind of support on, support who you like. However, I'd hate to see a huge growth in Anyone but Munster/Leinster mentality which some exhibit already.

Micky Dolenz

themont85 wrote: »

Well I'd always cheer an Irish province on provided they aren't playing Leinster, thats because I find it difficult to not cheer the lads who I'd cheer for in an Irish shirt. I have no issue though with people not taking this kind of support on, support who you like. However, I'd hate to see a huge growth in Anyone but Munster/Leinster mentality which some exhibit already.

Exactly, I agree 100%. I love watching the Irish players play and seeing their development. Now if they are playing against Munster, It's a different story.

Kev37

Have a co worker from Munster who says he cheers on Leinster when they're not playing Munster but even though he always hopes for a Leinster win against foreign teams he also hopes Sexton has a nightmare! Thought it was quite funny if a little pathetic!

durkadurka

Kev37 wrote: »

Have a co worker from Munster who says he cheers on Leinster when they're not playing Munster but even though he always hopes for a Leinster win against foreign teams he also hopes Sexton has a nightmare! Thought it was quite funny if a little pathetic!

Some of the sexton o gara stuff is a bit irrational.i really enjoy when munster do one of their massive performances, when the team far exceeds the sum of its parts. This despite the fact that i've been slaggin the bollix off munster fans the last few days.

raven136

do bath supporters cheer on Leicester in the Heineken cup or Ospreys fans cheer on other Welsh teams.
This is a genuine question as i cant see the problem in wanting your rivals to lose.A football fan can distinguish between his club and country and no harm of it.
I feel a lot of this is getting blown out of proportion.With the popularity of rugby comes a non traditional supporter and it brings more noise,and dare we say it some soccer style chants.
Why must things stay the same?We will keep the silence for kicks etc but why is it so frowned upon to shout and cheer anything other than the usual stuff.
Dont sign up for 10 pages in the evening herald or dont travel the province looking for support if you then patronise them about the way they should be supporting their teams.

Anyone who has been in france or england for rival games will see stuff far worse than what happens at the RDS or Thomond

Ciaran-Irl

raven136 wrote: »

do bath supporters cheer on Leicester in the Heineken cup or Ospreys fans cheer on other Welsh teams.
This is a genuine question as i cant see the problem in wanting your rivals to lose.A football fan can distinguish between his club and country and no harm of it.
I feel a lot of this is getting blown out of proportion.With the popularity of rugby comes a non traditional supporter and it brings more noise,and dare we say it some soccer style chants.
Why must things stay the same?We will keep the silence for kicks etc but why is it so frowned upon to shout and cheer anything other than the usual stuff.
Dont sign up for 10 pages in the evening herald or dont travel the province looking for support if you then patronise them about the way they should be supporting their teams.

Anyone who has been in france or england for rival games will see stuff far worse than what happens at the RDS or Thomond

It is about the opposition. Bath fans don't cheer on Leicester because Leicester don't play non English teams very often. Nobody ever expects Bath fans to cheer on Leicester against Wasps. Nobody expects a Munster fan to cheer on Leinster against Ulster.

The problem arises when people cheer on a Wasps or Leicester to beat a Leinster or Munster. It just seems wrong to cheer for an English team to beat an Irish team, no?

I don't care what other people do to be honest. I couldn't give a toss who Munster fans cheer for, but if they cheer on Clermont to beat Leinster, I will think they are a bid sad to be honest. I wouldn't imagine they would or should cheer on Leinster much either, but I would hope that they could at least be fairly neutral.

You can be damn sure I want Munster to beat Northampton.

Ciaran-Irl

On an aside, I got a reply from Gerry Thornley to an excessively irritated email I sent him on the day. He was very sound, and frankly, I felt a bit stupid for having complained at him so vehemently for bias that seems to not be there.

He said he will try to reply to all the emails he got that were not personally abusive.

Decent bloke & excellent journalist I say, and a far, far cry from the David Kelly's of the world.

subfreq

I don't think it's sad at all if someone cheers on Northampton or Clermont this weekend.

I'll be at Thomand but could understand an Ulsterman or Leinsterman liking the brand of rugby Northampton play and wanting the underdog to win the day.

Conversely last season I wanted Quins to beat Leinster in the quarter final. Not because I was anti Leinster but because I really enjoyed the journey Harlequins had gone on and the way they were playing. Dean Richards of course screwed any good faith or sentiment that was invested in that team but I was happy for Leinster when they won and supported them in the final.

Outside of your own team I just figure you are neutral so which ever team you like and for what ever reason, enjoy your rugby that way.

It's the game of Rugby you enjoy and not 'Irish Provinces At All Costs'.

It's different of course if you sit at home barracking against Leinster or Munster just because you are form the other province. That is a bit sad but I would think those supporters are a very small minority.

I get frustrated with this false moral argument that somehow supporting what ever team outside your own is somehow wrong. By default you have to support a home province. It's just plain wrong.

We all support Ireland and any player who pulls on the green jersey.

The real issue Gerry should focus on is not drawing lines in the sand between supporter groups but focusing on the herd mentality of new fans bringing soccer type behavior to games and the willingness on all sides no matter what province you are from to safe guard the old traditions.

Last year at the Semi Final when Leinster hit top gear and were dismantling Munster there was one total idiot who kept standing up and shouting soccer chants at anyone with a red scarf on. Even his wife was embarrassed. It wasn't the Munster fans giving out to him but all the blues around me telling him to pull his neck in.

Instead of trying to prize open a divisive issue Gerry would have been better finding the common ambition amongst seasoned rugby fans to keep established traditions alive.

danthefan

As long as you're behind every player who pulls on the Irish jersey regardless, I don't think there's an obligation to support the other provinces.

Eoin

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

I think it should be simple, one warning from stewards and then ejection from ground if found to be re-offending.

A warning in small print on ticket as disclaimer.

I don't think it's really that simple. If you're going to be asking stewards (often seem to be teenagers) to make that sort of judgement call, then I reckon they would a lot more training, and then you're moving away from it being a casual job with no requirements.

On the other thing - I will support Munster, Ulster & Connaught when they're not playing Leinster. I think it smacks of pettiness not to support other provinces, but it's not as bad as the people who will cheer for any team that is playing their provincial rival.

anonymous_joe

danthefan wrote: »

As long as you're behind every player who pulls on the Irish jersey regardless, I don't think there's an obligation to support the other provinces.

Indeed. I'd usually support Munster in a game because I really like lads like O'Connell, Fla, O'Callaghan, Earls, Wallace, even de Villiers and so on.

Not because they're Irish per sé.

daveharnett

Thornly's original point was valid and well worth making. The only solution is for supporters to take responsibility for the yobs among their ranks.

If you want to act the d**k, please take off the jersey - you're embarassing us.

You will have no shortage of support.

ALH-06

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

I think it should be simple, one warning from stewards and then ejection from ground if found to be re-offending.

Nooo please don't give that kind of authority to stewards! What's to guarantee their impartiality?

anonymous_joe wrote: »

If you've ever been to a Senior Cup game or whatever, the stuff the fans say and do is infinitely worse than anything at a Leinster/Munster game.

Sometimes, but only with idiot drunken college freshers. And I've even witnessed these being kept under wraps by more restrained colleagues.

Tim Robbins wrote: »

I'd still to confirm where's his from - or club he was / is with?

He's from Sandymount area I think.

raven136 wrote: »

Do Bath supporters cheer on Leicester in the Heineken cup or Ospreys fans cheer on other Welsh teams.
This is a genuine question as i cant see the problem in wanting your rivals to lose.

Well Welsh fans don't seem to support their own regions...

But we're a small country with a tiny playing base. We punch way above our weight and this is due to excellent player management and close cooperation between the 4 professional outfits and their respective academies and coaching staffs. And the fortunes of these provinces directly affect those of the national team. Munster fans wishing defeat on their 'rivals' from Leinster (and vice versa) are not acting in the best interests of Irish rugby. Instead, they have allowed an increasingly bitter rivalry taint their better judgement.

I was sitting beside a large contingent of red-wearing middle-aged rugby supporters in Murrayfield last May. Suffice to say it was pretty clear that they did not want Leinster to win their first Heineken Cup. That in my opinion is not a sign of a healthy rivalry. It smacks of bitterness and division.

DISCLAIMER: Problem not specific to one province, as highlighted by Thornley.

JustinDee

It is quite simply pathetic if a so-called Irish rugby supporter shouts for another provincial branch of the IRFU's opposition.
Pathetic

outwest

danthefan wrote: »

As long as you're behind every player who pulls on the Irish jersey regardless, I don't think there's an obligation to support the other provinces.

their is no obligaation all right, but 97% of the time i hope irish people hope other irish provinces support eachother.

i will hate anyone who is not supproting the 3 provinces this weekend. i for one are hoping for a leinster munster final. ( i think slim chance of that happening.) but it will get ulster into the hcup next as conancht will finish above them this year. :D


goodluck munster

goodluck leinster

_.._

Don't know whats its like in other people's households but in mine we scream for any Irish team when playing a foreign opposition. As we are based in Leinster we obviously favour Leinster when they are playing other Irish teams but I have travelled to follow Munster and happily donned a Munster jersey. There is only 4 teams in Ireland and they contain the bulk of our internationals, by supporting Leinster, Munster, Connacht or Ulster you are supporting Irish rugby!

May I also just make this point, the 'rivalry' seen between Munster and Leinster fans is nowhere near as intense as seen between fans of opposite clubs in the FA Premier League yet, come internationals, everyone seems to put that rivalry behind for the good of the country. Devout Man United fans scream on Gerrard and vice versa. I was disappointed to see the level of glee some supporters seemed to harbour in Jonathan Sexton's struggles with the boot in Croke Park. My whole family were just shocked, is this where Irish rugby is going? Because if it is I dont want to be going to games again. Sad to see, and whats worse is most of this rivalry has started happening after the creation of rugby messege boards. It is the rugby forums that have spurned this hatred. I remember reading the Planet Rugby forums and being shocked by the level of hatred between fans, I had gone to many games and didn't even think it existed, but slowly but surely, it has spilled out to live games and this is the result.
Gerry Thornley really didn't help the situation by only pointing out Leinster's flaws and I also think he shouldn't take reports from anonymous users as gospel. I swear to god, I have seen someone post on Munsterfans.com every time Leinster have beaten Munster a story about their little todler son/nephew/daughter being spat on and upset by evil Leinster fans. It swings both ways of course.

Derek Zoolander

JustinDee wrote: »

It is quite simply pathetic if a so-called Irish rugby supporter shouts for another provincial branch of the IRFU's opposition.
Pathetic

Don't really agree with this...

Lets say for example I'm a long suffering Connaught supporter who wants nothing more than to see my beloved province take on the big boys in the Heineken Cup... Is it pathetic that I am delighted that Ulster cannot beat Cardiff, or hope that the Ospreys will beat them next week.

Also I'm a Munster fan and would rather not have to play Leinster again in the ML semi finals - is it pathetic that in the interest of my own province I cheer on Leinsters opponents in the remaining ML games...

Aidric

Excellent HCup supplement in todays Examiner.

Eoin

Derek Zoolander wrote: »

Don't really agree with this...

Lets say for example I'm a long suffering Connaught supporter who wants nothing more than to see my beloved province take on the big boys in the Heineken Cup... Is it pathetic that I am delighted that Ulster cannot beat Cardiff, or hope that the Ospreys will beat them next week.

Also I'm a Munster fan and would rather not have to play Leinster again in the ML semi finals - is it pathetic that in the interest of my own province I cheer on Leinsters opponents in the remaining ML games...

Let's say for example that you're a Leinster fan, and the outcome of a Munster v Anyone RFC game has absolutely no impact on your team. There are people who would cheer for Anyone RFC simply because they're playing Munster. I'm loathe to use soccer examples, but it's the same as Anyone But United.

JustinDee

Derek Zoolander wrote: »

Don't really agree with this...

Lets say for example I'm a long suffering Connaught supporter who wants nothing more than to see my beloved province take on the big boys in the Heineken Cup... Is it pathetic that I am delighted that Ulster cannot beat Cardiff, or hope that the Ospreys will beat them next week.

Also I'm a Munster fan and would rather not have to play Leinster again in the ML semi finals - is it pathetic that in the interest of my own province I cheer on Leinsters opponents in the remaining ML games...

You're a Connacht provincial supporter . . . and a Munster provincial supporter but not of the other two?

My viewpoint stands. Don't mean to cause offence. Sorry.

Derek Zoolander

JustinDee wrote: »

You're a Connacht provincial supporter . . . and a Munster provincial supporter but not of the other two?

My viewpoint stands. Don't mean to cause offence. Sorry.

I'm neither...they are just hypothetical scenarios. I personally feel it would be entirely appropriate for a Connaught fan to cheer for the Ospreys next week if the result can positively impact the asperations of Connaught..

I agree that in H-Cup there are no such implecations but in a league competition where the other 3 provinces are direct rivals and their results can impact your standings in the table and by result qualification for H-Cup or knockout stages that wanting one of the other provinces to lost for the good of your province isn't pathetic...

outwest

u can support who want in a match. but to say ur an irish rugby fan and not support the irish teams is not right. the better we do in europe the better it is for ireland.




the sooner this interprovencial bull stops the better.

Derek Zoolander

outwest wrote: »

u can support who want in a match. but to say ur an irish rugby fan and not support the irish teams is not right. the better we do in europe the better it is for ireland.




the sooner this interprovencial bull stops the better.

What about ML then...

say One province is 3 points behind another and win their final match, is everyone expected to cheer for the other province when a win would deny your home province some silverware for the greater good of Irish rugby??

outwest

that different. but this weekend games has no ties with other irish teams.

Crash

Derek Zoolander wrote: »

Also I'm a Munster fan and would rather not have to play Leinster again in the ML semi finals - is it pathetic that in the interest of my own province I cheer on Leinsters opponents in the remaining ML games...

just on that point, Munster fans would be much better off cheering on Leinster in the last few ML games - Leinsters matches are Connacht and 3/5 of the top placed teams, definitely don't want them gaining any more points, possibly to Munsters detriment if they drop a few.