Third level institutions

avalon68

I was just reading another thread here which indicates that the quality of graduates in in decline from Irish universities and I'm just wondering what the general opinion is on this. We pump so much money into wages in general for education, but the debate often focusses on primary and second level teachers. Our lectures are also extremely well paid.....but are we really getting value for money? My 0.02c - Having recently taken up a position in an american university I was appalled and shocked at the difference in standards between here and in Ireland. The americans seem years ahead to me. The lecturers here in general seem far more approachable, keep better office hours than what I experienced in Ireland, and seem far more collaborative/interdisciplinary than in Ireland. The undergraduate students here leave college with a much better grasp of their discipline than Irish students. The postgrads are much better versed in their subject area, much more independent in thought and action than Irish postgrads, produce high quality novel research......I could go on but its a bit depressing to see how far behind we are. As a postdoc, Im struggling to keep pace with the 1st year grad students. Ive spoken to other Irish postdocs in different universities and they all have had similar experiences to me. So where has our system gone so wrong? How can we fix it? How can we improve standards without spending a whole bunch of money that just is not available? What does this mean for our knowledge economy?

Nolanger

It's all dumbed down now. The education system has been feminised, they're even removing teaching physics from secondary schools. It's all about self-esteem and communication skills instead of thinking for yourself. The country is fuc*ed with our so called 'universities' producing overconfident numbskulls who can't even spell. The next generation will be dumber than the current one. There was an article in the Mail yesterday - in England they have well-paid jobs on town councils with titles like 'global warming counsellors' and 'integration officers' while qualified accountants and other professionals are unemployed.

Nuravictus

Nolanger wrote: »

It's all dumbed down now. The education system has been feminised, they're even removing teaching physics from secondary schools. It's all about self-esteem and communication skills instead of thinking for yourself. The country is fuc*ed with our so called 'universities' producing overconfident numbskulls who can't even spell. The next generation will be dumber than the current one. There was an article in the Mail yesterday - in England they have well-paid jobs on town councils with titles like 'global warming counsellors' and 'integration officers' while qualified accountants and other professionals are unemployed.

This is true, I can't spell but I have a average grade of 70% in a engineering degree.

Eliot Rosewater

I'm starting to think the situation is hopeless (as a student).

• Grade inflation fiasco: The revelations on the Grade Inflation thread were shocking and totally disheartening, if I'm to be perfectly honest. It seems these institutions, of which UCC is apparently one, are upping their grades on paper so as to appear amiable to those around them. In reality it's the undergrads like me, who are very willing to work their socks off so as to maximize marks, that suffer as substandard students come out as well.
  It's also affecting the Leaving Cert, with such outrageous schemes as "Project Maths". Project what, dumb down the whole population?
• Inability of students to pay for what they get: I don't see how funding in Irish Universities is going to improve with the current generation of "entitled" students who spend the time they should be in lectures moaning about the prospect of paying more for their education.

Nuravictus

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

I'm starting to think the situation is hopeless (as a student).

• Grade inflation fiasco: The revelations on the Grade Inflation thread were shocking and totally disheartening, if I'm to be perfectly honest. It seems these institutions, of which UCC is apparently one, are upping their grades on paper so as to appear amiable to those around them. In reality it's the undergrads like me, who are very willing to work their socks off so as to maximize marks, that suffer as substandard students come out as well.
  Its also effecting the Leaving Cert, with such outrageous schemes as "Project Maths". Project what, dumb down the whole population?
• Inability of students to pay for what they get: I don't see how funding in Irish Universities is going to improve with the current generation of "entitled" students who spend the time they should be in lectures moaning about the prospect of paying more for their education.

Grade Inflation is a worldwide problem, not just Ireland. 1,500 Euro a year for college is not bad.

Nitochris

Just to put the Irish situation in perspective.

[QUOTE=Irish Independent;http://www.independent.ie/education/latest-news/our-excellent-universities-top---eu-league-table-for-efficiency-2112511.htmlOur 'excellent' universities top EU league table for efficiency

By John Walshe Education Editor

Friday March 26 2010

IRISH universities have received a major boost by coming at the top of a European 'efficiency' league table.
Weeks after complaints about dumbing down and grade inflation, an EU study reveals that:

• Irish graduates are the most highly employable in Europe.
• Irish universities have the highest graduation rate in Europe.
• Ireland has the highest percentage of graduates in Europe.
• Universities in Ireland, Finland and Sweden are given the highest 'excellence' rating by academics in other EU countries.

The president of NUI Galway, Professor Jim Browne, said last night that the study was a clear vindication of the efficiency of the Irish university system. There had been too much emphasis on inputs and time spent on hours teaching but the real measure was the "output" and Irish universities had been shown to be very efficient in that regard.
In the case of Galway, student numbers will have increased by 10pc in December over a two-year period, while staff numbers have been cut by 6pc and staff have had to contend with a 10pc pay and pension loss.
"Coping with this increase in student numbers is a great tribute to the staff," he said.
The report says recruiters regard universities in Ireland and the UK as providing highly employable graduates.
On the other hand, Spanish, Polish and Portuguese universities perform poorly on this yardstick. It says also that considering their size, Finland, Ireland and Sweden are the countries with more universities pointed to by their peers as being "excellent". Spain, Portugal and Greece also perform poorly on this indicator. The report concludes that Ireland, Japan, Sweden, the UK and the Netherlands are at the top in terms of efficiency or to use the jargon "at the production possibility frontier".
"In some cases, this was essentially due to excellent scientific production (Sweden, Finland and the Netherlands), whereas Ireland attained its position due to the graduation output, which is not only high in number but also the best in perceived quality."
By contrast, France, Germany, Italy, the southern and eastern European countries were way down the efficiency scales as was the US. The report says efficiency tends to be higher in countries where institutions are publicly evaluated by stakeholders and independent agencies. The autonomy of the institution when it comes to hiring and firing is another factor linked to efficiency.
The report says that Ireland, France and the eastern European countries are particularly efficient in teaching whereas the Nordic countries specialise more in research.
The findings were welcomed by the Irish Universities Quality Board whose chief executive Dr Padraig Walsh said, however, that the Irish university system must be more transparent.
"It must improve how it informs the public as to who is responsible for standards and quality and how it intends to provide sufficient data and, more importantly, a sufficient level of analysis about the system to the public."
- John Walshe Education Editor
Irish Independent

[/QUOTE]

Nolanger

Another problem is this 'education for all'. Have they not heard of the bell-shaped curve? Putting people into college who should not be there insults the smarter students. Then the exam papers have to be made easier and marked less stringently so as to pass a certain % of the class. It's all bollo*ks and people who can't tell the difference between 'effecting' and 'affecting' should get off this thread!

avalon68

I cant say I place much faith in the accuracy of that study. I believe Ireland has an overinflated opinion of its education system. We are now in a period of large scale emigration of graduates - it will be interesting to see how well their degrees prepare them for careers outside of Ireland.

Nitochris

avalon68 wrote: »

I cant say I place much faith in the accuracy of that study. I believe Ireland has an overinflated opinion of its education system. We are now in a period of large scale emigration of graduates - it will be interesting to see how well their degrees prepare them for careers outside of Ireland.

It's an European Commission study, here's the original: http://ec.europa.eu/economy_finance/publications/publication16267_en.pdf

Eliot Rosewater

Nuravictus wrote: »

Grade Inflation is a worldwide problem, not just Ireland. 1,500 Euro a year for college is not bad.

I realize that with the grade inflation. As regards the €1,500, I think it's very little to pay for a year of third level education; however if you talk to students they will bemoan the fact that they have to pay it.

Nolanger wrote: »

people who can't tell the difference between 'effecting' and 'affecting' should get off this thread!

I presume this is aimed at me. As far as I can tell my usage of the word effecting in this thread was correct: "It's also effecting the Leaving Cert." Feel free to clarify.

Either way I'm studying a science subject myself, so it hardly nullifies my desire to study in a University. :pac:

avalon68

Nitochris wrote: »

It's an European Commission study, here's the original: http://ec.europa.eu/economy_finance/publications/publication16267_en.pdf

I'm aware that it is a European Commission study - however I disagree that our graduates are of as high a standard as their US counterparts. Having experienced both systems - it just isnt true. Standards are much higher in the US universities *well at least in the one I work in, and the ones my contacts are at (which covers a broad geographical area in the US)

Nitochris

avalon68 wrote: »

I'm aware that it is a European Commission study

Sorry, I wasn't sure from your previous post if you had misread the Indo article.

theg81der

So what about those with dyslexia or someone who`s blind? Making 3rd level more accessable is never a bad thing, it`ll always result in some improvement however small.

Theres a lot of repetition and over lap in the modules. They should do more real life case studies. I`m doing accountancy and its unbelievable to me that we`re not doing more computers since we`ll walk into a job where we will have to use accountancy packages?!!!

I don`t think grades are inflated thou, mine aren`t that good and I`m a reasonably good students. I know in my class who gets the top grades - my friends - but they live in the library they deserve every mark they get and I wouldn`t like to see that work devalued by people looking for sensational headlines or something to moan about.

avalon68

theg81der wrote: »

Theres a lot of repetition and over lap in the modules. They should do more real life case studies. I`m doing accountancy and its unbelievable to me that we`re not doing more computers since we`ll walk into a job where we will have to use accountancy packages?!!!

This is the point I think I was trying to get at in a roundabout way I think the teaching standards have not changed with the times.....some of my lecturers reused lectures that were so old the paper on the acetate sheets was yellow! Courses should be revised every year. The type of teaching needs to change too - especially in scientific subjects as the field changes so rapidly. There is little point in being able to recite a textbook from cover to cover if you dont understand it. I feel the irish system is more orientated towards learning stuff off and regurgitating it back onto the exam page again....very little understanding of the material is required, just the ability to remember it. Ive sat in on a few classes since being here and everything is more discussion based, lecturers probe to see if students actually understand and in general the students seem far more engaged and ask lots of questions. None of the lectures I had in my undergrad in Ireland were anything like that.

theg81der

Well this year there was big accountancy changes and we were immediately taught them. I was more talking about our business related modules like organisational behaviour, business communication etc well not so much this semester for me but last year.

And I think computing should nearly be a dual degree with most things now, I think its a basic skill level. Everyone should learn a computer language, know how to build a website, should understand and be able to work databases and software relating to their field.

thirdmantackle

Irish students in general get away with doing little on most courses

too much partying
not enough time spent in lectures, classes
little reading done for their subjects
not enough studying
not enough continuous evaluation to ensure students are working through the year.


the standards have been slipping in ireland due to students getting lazier and less willing to work hard. at all levels of education. Irish kids feel an entitlement to get a qualification and then a job after college.

Scofflaw

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

I presume this is aimed at me. As far as I can tell my usage of the word effecting in this thread was correct: "It's also effecting the Leaving Cert." Feel free to clarify.

Either way I'm studying a science subject myself, so it hardly nullifies my desire to study in a University. :pac:

In general, you have an effect (n.) on something, you are affected (v.) by something - however, if you effect (v.) something, it means you accomplish it, whereas if you affect (v.) something, you have an impact on it.

So:

a. the reforms affected the LC.
b. I was affected by the LC reforms.
c. the LC reforms had an effect on me

d. the new legislation effected the LC reforms = the new legislation produced the reforms

e. the new legislation affected the LC reforms = the new legislation had an impact on the reforms (by implication, the reforms were a separate affair).

Your phrase, "grade inflation is also effecting the LC", would therefore mean that grade inflation is causing or producing the LC, which seems improbable. And I'm also a science graduate - personally I'd say we have a greater duty to be clear than Arts graduates, since we're trying to communicate something useful.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Eliot Rosewater

Scofflaw wrote: »

And I'm also a science graduate - personally I'd say we have a greater duty to be clear than Arts graduates, since we're trying to communicate something useful.

Cheers for that Scofflaw; I've duly fixed my post.

The "Science degree" comment was only a throwaway remark, especially given that reading literature is a favourite pastime of mine. I try to have my grammar and punctuation correct even when posting on Boards.ie; I re-read all my posts to try to effect that.

*crosses fingers*

:pac:

Byron85

Scofflaw wrote: »

And I'm also a science graduate - personally I'd say we have a greater duty to be clear than Arts graduates, since we're trying to communicate something useful.

Bit of a sweeping statement don't you think??

Anyway, to get back on topic, i've heard differing reports from people over the last while regarding University in the United States in comparison to Ireland. I don't think our education system is the worst but it does need a serious shake up. On a University level, there needs to be simply more communication between the different departments as they have a tendency to contradict each other on a regular basis.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

D.R cowboy

There is only one trinity college, singing along give people jobs if when their is none in a winter winter winter wonderland

RichardAnd

Our whole education system rewards the person who can memorise off chunks of information without fully understanding it whilst the person who actually thinks will not do so well.

My dad is really, really good at what he does (construction). He used to work in the US supervising construction of climate controlled warehouses and other such buildings for the company he used to work for. Now he works for Irish Rail and he designed alot of there new stations. How did dad start out? He started his working life as a metal fabricator, a "working man" as he might be called. No degree, no college just good old experience.

He told me that recently, one of the top "engineers" in Irish rail sent him back one of his drawing saying that it was wrong. It had been a standard plan, elevation and end-view plan of something (can't remember what) and the so called engineer had gotten the end-veiws mixed up and thought my dad's drawing was wrong. To make this worse, this wasn't just a once off.

Now this person has degrees and masters coming out her back-side and is getting probably 100k a year. Yet she makes really basic mistakes.

The problem? Well I think it's a combination of no real experience and arrogance. A person can get a first in civil engineering but will have absolutly no idea how construction works in reality. This problem is further confounded as most of them not only lack the skills but utterly fail to realise how little they know and thus, wiill not improve much.

Then there is the student culture that has built up. College used to be a serious undertaking as it was a large investment on the part of the student. However, the state paying for college has done little more than turned college into something most people don't take seriously. Too many people go to college, party, have sex and drop out without ever bothering to do any work and costing the state a good few thousand for the privilege. These same people also turned around and screamed "right to education" when FF were about to do one thing right and bring back fees.

In my hoest opinion, the absolute fortune that ireland forks out to send children, and most of them are still children when they graduate, is money wasted. There are serious students in colleges but we rarely hear about them because when RTE ventures onto campuses, they are probably doing what students should be doing and actually studying.

p1akuw47h5r3it

RichardAnd wrote: »

Our whole education system rewards the person who can memorise off chunks of information without fully understanding it whilst the person who actually thinks will not do so well.

Then there is the student culture that has built up. College used to be a serious undertaking as it was a large investment on the part of the student. However, the state paying for college has done little more than turned college into something most people don't take seriously.

I could't agree more! However I think the problem is mainly with the LC. It is what causes people to simply learn of chunks of information instead of actually understanding thing. It is clear it needs an overhaul. However how it should be overhauled is another thing altogether.

I am a freshman in TCD and and I am struggling a bit. The reason for this? Well I believe it is because I am trying to simply learn of things instead of actually understand them, a problem which has been pointed out already. However I don't believe University is causing me to do this, quite the opposite in fact. It is unfortunate that I am only getting my head around the "understanding" bit now, this should have been taught to me in secondary school!!

As regards the fees, well I don't personally think they encourage you to be lazy. Also if it wasn't for free fees, I know a few people who wouldn't have the opportunity to study in 3rd level education as a result of coming from relatively large families (5th of 5 children and 4th of 4 children, single parent family). If it were not for free fees these two people would more then likely not be in 3rd level education due to there parents/parent not being able to afford it. Obviously the people concerned would attempt to find employment to pay but it would be difficult in this climate.
However I do not want to draw this thread into a debate about fees as I am sick of them!!:)

AlekSmart

Thirdmantackle posted: too much partying
not enough time spent in lectures, classes
little reading done for their subjects
not enough studying
not enough continuous evaluation to ensure students are working through the year.


the standards have been slipping in ireland due to students getting lazier and less willing to work hard. at all levels of education. Irish kids feel an entitlement to get a qualification and then a job after college.

Oh dear I do hope Thirdmantackle,that you have a thick skin because those (valid) points are going to draw down the wrath of a very Knowledgeable Economy upon you !

Do you not understand about the "Right" to a third-level education man....tsk tsk :eek:

Mind you,RichardAnd is singing from the same hymn sheet...perhaps theres something in this....
QUOTE]Then there is the student culture that has built up. College used to be a serious undertaking as it was a large investment on the part of the student. However, the state paying for college has done little more than turned college into something most people don't take seriously. Too many people go to college, party, have sex and drop out without ever bothering to do any work and costing the state a good few thousand for the privilege. These same people also turned around and screamed "right to education" when FF were about to do one thing right and bring back fees.[/QUOTE]

RichardAnd

DanDan6592 wrote: »

I am a freshman in TCD and and I am struggling a bit. The reason for this? Well I believe it is because I am trying to simply learn of things instead of actually understand them, a problem which has been pointed out already. However I don't believe University is causing me to do this, quite the opposite in fact. It is unfortunate that I am only getting my head around the "understanding" bit now, this should have been taught to me in secondary school!!

Yeah, the problem you described is something I've seen alot of. I used to work as a tutor to computer students, helping them with their programing subjects. It was amazing how they just did not grasp that memorising off algorithms and code fragments was completely useless without understanding what they actually do.

They also used to complain bitterly to me when the professor would give them an assignment that required them to learn something he had not covered. I think my biggest lesson from college was just how spoon fed kids are at school.

With your own problem, if you crack the underlying material you'll find it alot easier. But still, just because you don't get a first doesn't mean you're stupid. I've met C++ programing wizards who told me they barely passed college exams as there was just so much stuff they had no interest in and didn't need to know.

thebman

thirdmantackle wrote: »

Irish students in general get away with doing little on most courses

too much partying
not enough time spent in lectures, classes
little reading done for their subjects
not enough studying
not enough continuous evaluation to ensure students are working through the year.


the standards have been slipping in ireland due to students getting lazier and less willing to work hard. at all levels of education. Irish kids feel an entitlement to get a qualification and then a job after college.

lol and you have the facts to back that up do you?

When I was in college, we worked our arses off and I didn't get to go out drinking most nights and attendance was taken in lectures. Continuous evaluation was 30% of most modules.

I doubt things have changed all that much since I left college a few years ago.

I'm sure there are poor courses and poor standards in some places but every education system in every country has this. They can't all be centres of excellence.

ei.sdraob

thebman wrote: »

lol and you have the facts to back that up do you?

When I was in college, we worked our arses off and I didn't get to go out drinking most nights and attendance was taken in lectures. Continuous evaluation was 30% of most modules.

I doubt things have changed all that much since I left college a few years ago.

I'm sure there are poor courses and poor standards in some places but every education system in every country has this. They can't all be centres of excellence.

you never have people that you didnt know are in your class, turn up before exams?

you never had (same) people paying others to complete assignments, projects?

thebman

ei.sdraob wrote: »

you never have people that you didnt know are in your class, turn up before exams?

No except maybe in first year where they would have failed, there weren't that many in my course as it had a reputation of being difficult. I knew everyones name and most people turned up for most lectures.

you never had (same) people paying others to complete assignments, projects?

No, I've never even heard of anyone doing it TBH.

Nuravictus

What a lot of people in this thread dont realise is that the Industries have a lot of input on the courses. For example in DIT the Irish Engineers Association want the Second Year Project removed because it means that Cert level people are overskilled. They only want the Project to be done in the final year. I personally think this is stupid as the experience gained as been very good.

p1akuw47h5r3it

ei.sdraob wrote: »

you never had (same) people paying others to complete assignments, projects?

Really can't see this happening tbh.

RichardAnd

DanDan6592 wrote: »

Really can't see this happening tbh.

I have seen it, though I don't know how common it is.

Eliot Rosewater

DanDan6592 wrote: »

Really can't see this happening tbh.

There's been quite a scandal in the UCC BIS department this year due to evidence that over 5 of the final year students used rentacoder.com to pay someone to do their final year project.

I was speaking to a student in BIS who told me stories of people having broken and ugly website projects that mysteriously became fixed and top of the class overnight.

When my brother was in UCC, he and his friend were approached by a student in Limerick to do the latter's final year Maths Modeling assignment. They were offered €500, if I rightly recall.

ei.sdraob

DanDan6592 wrote: »

Really can't see this happening tbh.

it happening at undergrad level and is quite common, the colleges try to hush it down, but its there

i seen it as a student and i seen it as lab assistant years ago despite all the noise the college was making about plagarism

p1akuw47h5r3it

RichardAnd wrote: »

I have seen it, though I don't know how common it is.

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

There's been quite a scandal in the UCC BIS department this year due to evidence that over 5 of the final year students used rentacoder.com to pay someone to do their final year project.

I was speaking to a student in BIS who told me stories of people having broken and ugly website projects that mysteriously became fixed and top of the class overnight.

When my brother was in UCC, he and his friend were approached by a student in Limerick to do the latter's final year Maths Modeling assignment. They were offered €500, if I rightly recall.

ei.sdraob wrote: »

it happening at undergrad level and is quite common, the colleges try to hush it down, but its there

i seen it as a student and i seen it as lab assistant years ago despite all the noise the college was making about plagarism

:cool:....Ok well it must be happening so!!!:eek:

ei.sdraob

DanDan6592 wrote: »

:cool:....Ok well it must be happening so!!!:eek:

It aint the fault of colleges but the students in question
and yes its happening since I was approached in person before to "sell" a project

maybe its just anecdotal evidence, I dont know. but yes there are students who need a course in ethics

p1akuw47h5r3it

ei.sdraob wrote: »

It aint the fault of colleges but the students in question
and yes its happening since I was approached in person before to "sell" a project

maybe its just anecdotal evidence, I dont know. but yes there are students who need a course in ethics

I was being sincere in my post just in case you thought I wasn't:). I'd agree there is nothing the colleges can do really.