access orders and times

jackira

Hi,

On the 25th of April i was in court for a leave to apply for access from my ex boyfriend. He is not the biological father of my children. We have been split for 2 years and i have allowed him access to the children. I was planning on moving back to england which is why he did this.

Now by my understanding you have to be granted the leave to apply and then another court date will be set.

On thursday the judge said nothing about granting him this just moved the court date to the the following tuesday the 30th at a different court. Now i assumed that this was for another court/judge to decide. I was also order not to leave the counrty with my children. Which ran out on the tuesday we were next in court.

I received no paper work apart from the original order for leave to apply. But on tuesday the case just went ahead. We were back in court again the next day on wednesday and he has been granted access and i'm also not allowed to leave the country, there is no time for this it is now permanent.

I was just wondering if this had been the same for anyone else. And is this time frame normal. I didn't have a solicitor as i had already been told he pretty much would get nothing and he could not stop me from leaving, I'm now appealing it and will make sure i have a solicitor. But is the order even valid?

I've been searching everywhere and on every bit of information it has said after the leave to apply if that is granted then he then has to apply for access, this step seems to of been missed totally. After what happened on thursday i did contact a solicitor who asked me for paper work, I rang the court house to see what the judge had ordered. They told me all there was was the order about me not leaving the country, there was nothing about him being granted the leave to apply or about an application for him to actually apply for access. I asked for a copy of it and they said that it hasn't even been done up, they didn't know how to cause it was so unusual, they had never seen anything like it before. They had phoned the ex's solicitor to get information from them about it. That doesn't seem right either. So i wasn't able to get anything from them.

So is it possible that the judge on tuesday ( it was a different judge and court ) just decided he was going to grant it and then go ahead with the actual application for access? If that did happen then is the court order even legal. Even if it it i'm still going to appeal. The judge knew that by stopping me leaving the country he was making me homeless, i had already giving the notice on my house, all he said is that there are loads of houses available i'm sure my landlord would let me stay on. He didn't even let me explain that the reason i was leaving is that i couldn't afford the house. I moved to england came back 2 years ago but was living between newry and dublin. I gave up the newry house just before christmas to go back to england but with the court date i was unable to leave. Because i do not meet the habitual resident conditions, i can not apply for loan parents, rent allowance or any payment from the welfare officer. I am still getting my child benefit from the uk for my children. So this judge has made me homeless and with no income what so ever by ordering me not to leave the country. And there is nothing that can be done about it i just dont meet the conditions.Every one i have spoken to has told me this, loan parents, the cwo and the cic. There is an emergency needs fund that i can apply for but that cant be done on a week to week basic for the next however long untill the appeal is sorted. Thats more of a once off payment.

Any advice on someone that has gone through the leave to apply for access and then the actual application for access and what actually happen in regards to their time please let me know what happened.

LegacyUser

Hi, I have gone through similar and a few things spring to mind, why did the first judge move it to another court, was there a file already opened in this second court that related to some other matter between yourself and your ex, if so then they try keep all cases relating to the parties involved to one court if possible for ease of access to information.


Secondly, to me it sounds like the leave to apply was granted to your ex this week, I believe that this is granted in most cases where there has been any involvement by someone who acted 'the other parent' (can't rem. the correct word). I have had a similar situation and the first hearing was about leave to apply, I didn't get to say very much at that but then we got a further date for the actual access hearing. This was a lenghty process but while it was on-going over a few months I was not allowed to leave the country with my child, I would say this is what is going on with your case.


So really what you need to find out is did the judge adjourn your case to another day, if so then that will be when the real work begins so make sure you are well prepared and stick to the facts of why it is in the interest of your children that you return to the UK. I presume you have arranged schools etc. for them, bring all these letter with you.

My case was a bit diff. to yours as I was not trying to leave the country but the person who brought it was not doing it for the good of my child but only to use the court system to ensure they got the last word. Good luck with it, I don't envy you starting the process.

jackira

Hi thanks for getting back to me.

OK....I'm not really sure why it got moved to a different court. There was no other file anywhere, this was the only thing. The judge said something about that the swords court would be better. I honestly think he was just trying to pass the buck on the case. But i do know that he never actually granted the leave to apply, unless i dont get notified of this and he just did it and then moved it to the other court. But surely he would need to done up that order and for the district court house to do up that order and send me a copy. I know from speaking with them that all that judge ordered was that i wasn't allowed to leave the country. The judge gave us another date which was the tuesday, 5 days later.

I agree it does seem that he was granted the leave, but should I of not been informed about this. When i was in court on tuesday nothing was said about the leave to apply we just went straight on with the case. It wasn't untill the access was granted that i realised it was the full hearing. I assumed we were still on the subject of the leave to apply. And if he got that then his solicitor would have to make another aplication for the actual access. To me it seemed like he had adjoured it to another day but that not what happened. I'm not sure what you mean by the real work begins. The case is over and done with, he got his access and i cant leave. Unless do you mean the appeal. The whole process took from one thursday to the following wednesday, 3 days we were in court that was it.

No i dont have a school arranged, you need to be living in the district before you can apply for a place. But i have contacted schools around the area i will be moving to and they all have places available so it wont be a problem getting them into school.

It's 50/50 with my ex. I do believe that he loves the children, but he is also doing it to control my life. He refused to move out of the house we own together, he sold my car, he got the business and now he trying to get my kids as well. He wants to leave me with nothing.

I really cant afford to live in Ireland anymore, I'm am only just surving, but surviving is not living. He as made no attempts to help me in way at all, he's seems to like that i am struggling so much. He knows the house meant a lot to me, I always wanted to own my own house and i worked hard to get it. If we had been married and the kids were his it would of been classed as the family home and i would of got the house. I've been screwed all over the place. All he wanted was the house for himself, i suggested 4 or 5 different things we could do, he didn't want to know. All he wanted was for me to give the house to him.

The stupid thing is i offered him so much access. I said he could have them for the whole of the summer holidays, both half terms, christmas and easter, and as many weekends that we could arrange between us. He refused he just wanted to keep me in ireland cause he knew i wanted to leave.

The access is due to start next friday but when i told my children a few things came to light, I just wish i had known about them before. So i'm going to be breaking the court order cause i'm not giving them to him on friday he can run and jump after i found out what i did. I'm hoping i wont have to wait long for the appeal to go through. Ad ust get this over and done with and get a judge that will actually let me say something. I didn't get to say much at all. He seemed to just believe everything my ex said in court. I could of proved that he was lying if given the chance, all the judge had to do was ask my kids. But when he did see them he didn't really ask them much at all. Since only the ex had given evidence, why didn't the judge ask them about something that he had said did/didn't happen and hear what the kids had to say, then he would of know he was lying about everything that he said. He bascially made me out to be the worst mother in history, and i wasn't looking after them properly, and he didn't think they were safe with me. For someone that was so concerned about them he hasn't once phone since the case has been done last wednesday, thats nearly a week. The last time he saw them was the tuesday before the case, his solicitor advised him not to contact to see them while it was going on, but it's finished now, well untill i appeal. It's easter and he didn't even ring to see what the easter bunny had given them.

And the biggest kick in the teeth is that i have to get his written permission to take them out of the country for a holiday, no where in the order does it say he has to get my permission, a total joke. There not even his kids. The whole thing was a joke, i just wish i had taken a solicitor with me, but i didn't realise he was going to get nasty, after 6 years you think you know a person.

But i'm still going to fight it every step every step of the way, It's not him getting access that bothers me, I was always willing for them to see each other, it's the keeping me in the country. He has less access now than what he did before the order. He got every other weekend and 6 hours during the week. For the sake of 6 hours i could of gone back to england and i said i would come back every fortnight for the access and still he refused that as well. He just wants to ruin my life, and thats not fair on the kids either. Even after we split up we had a good relationship with each other, we went on holiday together, spent christmas together ect, he ruined all of that now cause i dont think i'll ever be able to be in the same room with him again without wanting to do some serious damage to him.

LegacyUser

Gosh that really sounds like a right mess. A few things:

You are correct you should have received a court order stating that he has been given leave to apply, the District Court Clerk should be able to confirm this withyou by phone if you give him/ her the details of the court date/s.

Have you applied for legal aid, I really think you should head straight down there, if what you think has been done and he has been given access, which all seems very quickly to me, then when you appeal it is my understanding it has to go through the District Court, this I was informed would cost approx 5k minimum.

My reading of this is that there has not been any decision made yet by the court, but what the Judge has ordered is that in the mean time access is to continue and you cannot leave the country. I would be amazed and shocked if he did not let you take the stand to give your evidence, each time except at the leave to appeal application in the process I went through I took the stand as well as the applicant. Again ring the District Court Clerk in Swords and ask for a copy of what the Judge ordered on that date or if there is another date down for hearing.

Finally, I'm not asking you to answer this on site but what about your childrens father is there any chance he would make an application to get them back to England especially if you have more supports set up over there.

I am at a loss as to how 'the best interest of the children' was dealt with here unless he was a genuinely good person who really sees these children as his, even at that I feel your frustration with the family court system, I found being totally honest did not serve me well while battling for what was right for my child, it took a serious slip up in the applicants testimony before I felt the judge believed anything of what I had said.

Please head to the legal aid board, they have another scheme where if your case is serious they will provide it for you once you are within their means test for it which it sounds like you would be, something similar to private practioners or something like that so you don't wait for months on their waiting list.

jackira

Hi, oh yeah this is one big mess.

I have already confirmed this with the district court clerk that NO order was on the thursday about granting him the leave to apply. And no application has ever been made to apply for the actual access.

I didn't apply for legal aid as i was told he has next to no chance of this order being granted to apply for access. So i though well at the worst the judge can grant the leave to apply, and i'll get a solicitor for the next court date, when the actual access case will go ahead. But i honestly never thought it would go that far, everyone i spoke to said it wouldn't including 2 solicitors and 1 barrister. The appeal wont go back to the district court it will go to the circuit court. Well thats what i was told by the legal aid board today, but i take what they say with a pinch of salt. I rang them last thursday after the hearing, they told me to go to dolphin house on tuesday ( which was today ) so off i head to the district court office to collect the order since they told me they would be open today, got there and guess what they are closed. So they made my way into dolphin house knowing i didn't have the orders but thinking we could at least start the process, get there to be told that i had to go back to the law centre. Drove home like a mad women giving out to every single person who dared to drive within 5 meters of me!!! ( well didn't actually give them to them lol, more just talking to myself )

So i get home and ring the law centre, told them i was told last thursday that today i could go in with my bank statements photo id ect ect, and walk away with a list of legal aid solicitors and the paperwork i needed to give to what ever solicitor i decided to have. Now i'm being told i have to wait till next week to even get an appointment with the law centre to have my means accessed and then about a 4 months minimum wait to get a solicitor.

I wasted a whole day for nothing, i had the choice of either going to the cwo and to wellington key, or the court house and dolphin house, i couldn't possibly be in 4 places at once... i chose the wrong option. I'm still going to be homeless on thursday and with no income at all. Thats now on the list for tomorrow morning. Why these places are only open for a few hours i'll never know.

Sorry if i confused you but there has been a decision made. It was ruled on wednesday what access he got and all the conditions to go with it, still raging that i have to get his permission if i even wanted to take them to Newry for the day, he he doesn't need mine ( is this judge right in the head? ) It was the final decision, of course i can appeal but as far as that judge was concerned it's over and done with for him. There is no mean time. Thats why i'm so shocked at how quickly this has gone. And the fact i thought we were still on the leave to apply case, not the actual thing.

On the tuesday, he gave his evidence, i was allowed to ask him questions and that was it, when i asked the wrong way he said i cant to that but i will be able to give my story when i give my evidence. So on wednesday i did the whole swear on the bible, and i started to say my side of things, well i got about 3-4 mins in ( swear to god thats all it was ) and the judge stopped me and asked if myself and his solicitors would go into the other room and see if we could come to an arangment. ( the ex was in hospital, he broke his leg so he wasn't there is went ahead without him cause he had already given evidence) so off we went hammered it out, the solicitors phoned the ex he said he wouldn't agree to it we went back in, told the judge we hadn't agreed. He went off into his little room, came back 15 mins later and read out his ruling. And that was that. The court clerk told me that the order would be done up tuesday (today) and posted out to me, and since he had heard me say ( glad someone was listening ) that i wouldn't be at the address cause i had to move out that i could either give another address or come in and pick it up myself.

The kids dad is in Ireland, he was at the court house to give evidence to say he has no problems with me taking the children to england. I asked the judge could i call him so he could say this, and he said it wouldn't make any difference. This was on the tuesday so there was no point in asking him to come to court again on the wednesday.

Well i wouldn't say he was the best person in the world but i suppose he's not the worst. Yes he does love them, but i have never and would never stop them from seeing each other. I honestly believe he is doing this 50% because he wants the kids to stay in Ireland and 50% to piss me off cause he knows i want to leave. It doesn't matter to him that i can have a better life in england and there for provide more for the kids in england. He now has less access to them than what he ever did, even the 2 years that we have been seperated. It's all about the quality and not the amount of time. 3 hours twice a week is all that is keeping me in ireland, homeless and not a cent to my name.

I know a hell of a lot of people wont get a holiday this year, and i'm not happy i'm one of them. Yes I'll survive without it, but i loved being away to take them away for 2 weeks every year. My grandparents took me abroad twice a year, every year when i was a kid, i was very lucky and got to see alot of the world, and i want that for my kids as well. I work damm hard all through the year, i went without a lot of things a young girl in her 20's would normally do and have, weather they are a mum or not, and i dont begrudge a single min of it, i love being a mum. I did it all for my kids, i want them to see as much of the world that they possibly can, i love the stamps they get in the passport that they can keep and look back on when their older at all the places they visited and if that means i dont go with my friends for a night out, i dont have sky or i dont buy a new top that i see, then i will do all of things. It doesn't really bother me, it's what any parent does for their child, they do the best they possibly can, and it's just so frustrating that i know i can provide all of this, just not in ireland.

LegacyUser

Gosh I am shocked by that, it is almost unbelieveable only I know I have encountered similar where you feel only one voice is being heard and it's not yours.

All I can suggest is that you continue with the legal aid route, you have nothing to loose at this stage. Once you have the copy of your order, if you ex does not turn up for access then note it down or go to your local garda station and get them to stamp the back of it stating he did not turn up then you can go back to court and look for a variance or to get the order reversed.

I'm sorry there is nothing else I can think of that could help you, wish you all the best and don't give up on your dreams for your children, it will come right eventually.

jackira

Hi, Yeah i will continue with it. the biggest concern at the moment is i have no where to live, tonight is the last night in the house i'm renting and i have, and will have no income at all.

I spent all day today going to see the community welfare office, went to my local and gardnier street, then was told to go to coolock. Spent over 2 hours waiting to be told i shouldn't of been sent there in the first place. Every where i went i was told it was the wrong place. Not one of those places would except my forms for rent allowance and supp welfare allowance. They were all pretty nice about it and i'm sure they felt sorry for me but at the end of the day they couldn't help.

So i'm lost on where i go to next. I do have tomorrow morning to try and sort things out, but i've been to my local welfare office, gardnier strret and coolock where is there left? The last place i was in was coolock and the lady kept telling me to go back to the welfare office and i said to here, " you keep saying this to me but your not telling me where to go, I've been told to go else where by 2 of them all ready" she couldn't answer me, she didn't even know herself.

I rang a radio station when i got home, very short notice but if they have time i might go on air. I'm hoping someone will hear thats actually knows what to do and can give advice.

What a total and utter mess when the people working for the system dont even know how it works, or where i'm meant to go or who to ask for help.

I even phoned the ex for help ( and it killed me to do it )and asked if we can come to the house, or if he can stay with family/friends and let me and the kids move in. Now i cant just say that he said "no" and get it fully across that this was not a normal no. It was said in a state of shock and amazement that i dared even ask, and in a way that he was almost laughing at me for ever suggesting it.

I was driving so was on speaker phone my son was holding it while i was asking him. So they heard what he said, my son is not happy at all with him for not helping us. We then had a joke about how long before he called back to say the kids could go up there but i couldn't. We know him so well, cause 2 mins later in came the text that the kids could go to him while i sorted everything out for myself.

I texted him back and said that i cant sort things out. And there is no I, it's us, me and the kids. I told him they wont give me a thing i've been trying for 2 days and now i'm out of time. Still not heard back but it's not like i expected him to anyway.

smelltheglove

I've been reading your story for a few days now, thoughts are with you, it seems an awful mess.

First thing I suggest you doing is calling your local counsellor, I know someone who went through some stressful situations and had to leave the family home, like you husband was step father. Everything was refused because she had 'interest' in a house. Basically after weeks and weeks and weeks of trying she eventually got on to her local counsellor, as in political counsellor not the psychiatrist kind, and sure enough with a bit of a struggle she got her entitlements. Still cant get her name on a list for social housing until house has been sold and divorce finalised but at least the rent allowance and single mothers is coming through. I would say if you search well enough you will get a mobile number, its late now to do it but in the morning, first thing call to ask if they can help you out. Tell them you are being turned away at every door and as a member of their constituency is there anything they can do to help.

I hope to God you do not become homeless tomorrow over this. Is there any chance the childrens father will help you out since he is in Ireland, just until you have something sorted?

jackira

hey smelltheglove, that's a very good idea and not one i had thought of or that anyone else has suggested, at this stage anything is worth a try, I've still not come up with any ideas of where i can go tomorrow or who i can see to help me get sorted out. I certainy dont have weeks and weeks, i have like 16 hours. I think I'm going to ring the estate agent in the morning and ask if i can stay one more night and pay him whatever that comes to, even though everywhere was closed over the easter i was far from being in the mood to pack things up. I have moved a lot ( a few friends have taken most of my things) but there is still a lot left to do, and since i still have to try and get something sorted out tomorrow i wont have time to finish going through everything and pack up what is left, and give the house the once over before i leave.

The only difference between me and your friend is that he was never my husband and that is what is causing me a lot of problems and that we have been separated for the past 2 years. The lady that i spoke to at finglas law centre did however ask me if there was a promise to marry, and yes we were engaged (still have the ring lol although he did ask for it back which is some bloody cheek as it was paid for on MY credit card) so maybe the fact that we were engaged will help me, i will have to say that to the solicitor when i speak to him, so in about 4 months haha. The solicitor i spoke to previously about this, she never asked me if we had been engaged and i dont recall myself ever mentioning it, so i'll keep my fingers crossed for that one at least.

As for the childrens dad, no not a hope. He really doesn't have much to do with us, he has moved on with his life, has a new partner and a new family.

I dont think, well i know i wont become homeless in the sense that i'll be sleeping in my car, or on the streets, a couple of friends (and at times like this you know who your friends are) would never let that happen. I may not have a house but i will always have a roof over my head. But there is only so long you can take over someone else's house. If it's going to be at least another 4 months before i can get a solicitor that's a long time to have myself and 2 extra kids in your own home.

Well as they say only time will tell. I'm sure your not the only one reading and wondering what will happen, i'm still wondering what will happen. I should start my own blog..."how to avoid messing up your life!" well actually it wouldn't be that long of a blog, just bascially do the opposite of everything i have ever done.

I'll let you know how things go tomorrow, at this stage i'm finding it hard to believe anyone will help me, but i'll try my local counsellor, i dont really have anything else to lose!

smelltheglove

Keeping my fingers crossed for you!

jackira

well i've made a small amount of progress, but when there's one step forward there is 2 back.

The CIC managed to get in touch with someone high up the chain, and she spoke to the people in gardnier street. They are expecting me tomorrow and will except my claim forms plus give me an emergency needs payment, this is only to get me over the weekend, so not much probably about €50 but it's better than nothing.

I spoke with someone that works for a local counsellor and he was a total star. Rang around a load of places for me about the rent allowance and my swa claim and also about the whole situation with the access. He tried to ring social services as well about a few things i had said to him that my children had told me when they are with the ex. Cant go into to much detail but hopefully it will help my case. Every one i have told thinks this is a serious matter but social services said that and i quote " all our cases have to be prioritised, and i dont think my team leader will approve for us to come out to you to speak to the children about this" needless to say i haven't heard back from them.

But ( and there is always a but ) i have a serious problem that i cannot find my passport or my driving licence. I know you should keep you licence on you at all times or in the car but i just dont. All my personal things like that are all kept in one place, and i went earlier to get my passport it was missing. Only the passport and licence are missing. Post office books, credit union books, the kids birth certs, all those type of things are still there. I've never lost my passport in my life i know it was where i put it. I can only think that the ex has taken it, i haven't needed it for anything so didn't realise it was missing. It's been a good few weeks since the ex has even been in my house, but he has been here before and it would of been easy for him to take it, maybe he thought taking that would stop me flying out of the country. I could of still got to england i dont need a passport on the boat, I know 100% i had it when i moved into this house at the beginning of february. I've torn the house apart looking for either of them, even got the kids involved said i would give €10 to the one that found either of them first lol JUst had my dinner, writing this and i'm going to go searching again. There's no where else left to look i'm just going to be going over where i've already looked, I'll stay up all night if i have to but i have to find them.

With out photo i.d, gardnier street wont except my forms or issue my with the emergency payment. And there's no way i can get another one by 10am tomorrow morning.

But on the bright side the landlord has said that i can stay in the house over the weekend, but I will need to have moved out by the beginning of next week, so that gives me a few more days to try and figure something out.

I went in to the court house and issued my appeal. I have to go to court on tuesday just for the judge to sign it and then i will be given a date there and then or i will the date sent out to me.

I asked if there was anything i could lodge that could let a judge decided who lives in the house. She said the only thing was if you were seperating and the assets had to be divided, and since we wern't married i couldn't do that. I could of gone for maintenance since he is now classed as being loco parentis, but i dont even want anything from him, i feel that if i do that then thats me saying hey pay me for the kids and i'll stay and let you see them and thats the last message i want to send.

I'm gonna still go into gardnier street tomorrow and see if i can get around it, i doubt it but it's worth a go anyway.

smelltheglove

Well it looks a little better than before, good luck finding the passport and licence. I hope they turn up, you are reminding me I cant find my licence anywhere either. Glad you found some help, hope today went well.

LegacyUser

my sons grandmother has access every friday night over night and she has not to have a certain person in the house as he is a danger to my son,,, my sons father is dead and never had anything to do wit my son,, my sons grandmother has broken the access by allowing this person stay in the house wile my son is there and i have got photos off facebook to prove to the judge that she is braking her order,,, what will happen now