The fear of death a primary reason why people believe?

Dohnny Jepp

This is something that always made me curious. I myself would like to believe. . .but don't. Maybe I'm an athiest. .well I'm an agnostic anyway (cover all angles:P).

From talking to extended family who would be firm believers, the conversation always drifts around to the afterlife. That when they die they go to heaven and meet all they have lost through out their lives. To me this seems like peoples main reason for believing, they refuse to believe that there is an end and want to believe that they can live forever no matter how illogical it may seem. (Disclaimer: Illogical from my point of view, I fully acknowledge this may seem logical to others)

I have also noticed that the older people get the more they practice, and I put this down to what they fear getting closer.

What do you all think on this? Does this fear push peoples beliefs?

Soul Winner

Dohnny Jepp wrote: »

This is something that always made me curious. I myself would like to believe. . .but don't. Maybe I'm an athiest. .well I'm an agnostic anyway (cover all angles:P).

From talking to extended family who would be firm believers, the conversation always drifts around to the afterlife. That when they die they go to heaven and meet all they have lost through out their lives. To me this seems like peoples main reason for believing, they refuse to believe that there is an end and want to believe that they can live forever no matter how illogical it may seem. (Disclaimer: Illogical from my point of view, I fully acknowledge this may seem logical to others)

I have also noticed that the older people get the more they practice, and I put this down to what they fear getting closer.

What do you all think on this? Does this fear push peoples beliefs?

I have feared death since I was 8 years old. What does that say? I became a Christian because I heard that death has not got the final say on things and I believed it and still do. And even if the old age fear of death is a major factor in bringing folk to the faith, does that have any bearing on the truthfulness or not of the faith?

Memnoch

Soul Winner wrote: »

I have feared death since I was 8 years old. What does that say? I became a Christian because I heard that death has not got the final say on things and I believed it and still do. And even if the old age fear of death is a major factor in bringing folk to the faith, does that have any bearing on the truthfulness or not of the faith?

So you were/are afraid of death. Someone told you a story that you no longer had to fear death because "religion" told you it wasn't the end of things. This story gave you comfort from the fear of death. You chose to believe in this story as it gave you comfort.

Yet you ask if it had any bearing on the truthfulness of faith?

Since there is no empircal evidence for religious faith, it all comes down to what you CHOSE to believe. The reasons for those beliefs are then incredibly important to examine since they are the pillars upon which faith rests.

Death is unknown, we don't really know what happens when we die, if something happens. Humans need to be able to define the world around us in a way that we can understand so that we can survive in it, this is an evolutionary trait. We aren't able to comprehend oblivion or nothingness, and this scares us a great deal.

And that is what religious faith really boils down to. A way of dealing with the unknown that gives us comfort. So yeah, the way we look at death certainly hasa large bearing on our belief in faith.

PDN

No, the fear of death isn't a big part of my faith at all.

When I was an atheist I didn't fear death, because I reckoned there was nothing more anyway.

Now I'm a Christian I don't fear death as I know I'm going to spend eternity with Jesus Christ.

JimiTime

I've never feared death tbh.

philologos

No, it isn't. Although on the other forum, they always seem to make out that it is.

Fanny Cradock

I certainly don't want to die, so I guess I do look upon death with a distant trepidation. (Who doesn't!) Still, despite this, I don't think that fear of death is a factor in me desiring a relationship with Jesus. For me this would be like saying I'm getting married because I want someone to look after me when the end comes. In other words, it completely misses the point of what it means to love someone.

The reason I'm a Christian because I believe I can have -in the fullest sense of the word - a relationship with a God who loves and cares for each one of us. It's not sbecause of some distant promise of life after death but because of something here and now (today especially).

StormWarrior

I'm an agnostic, but I cannot understand why people fear the end of their existence and would prefer an afterlife. I mean, if you don't exist you're not going to worry about it, how can that be any worse than an afterlife? I had to write an essay on this at university, and I couldn't think of a single reason why an afterlife would be better than non-existence. If I knew for a fact that there was no afterlife, I wouldn't fear death at all. It's any potential afterlife that I'd be scared of!

antiskeptic

StormWarrior wrote: »

I had to write an essay on this at university, and I couldn't think of a single reason why an afterlife would be better than non-existence.

That's kind of a funny thing to compare. There would be no 'you' to comment on the positives/negatives of non-existance. It takes existance to consider the question at all. And if it's not a positive to be able to consider the question then your essay was pointless from the outset.. whatever conclusion you arrived at.

Should we take the same tack with your posts?

janeeen

Everybody wants to go to heaven but nobody wants to die
Thats the way most people see it without realizing it.

wolfsbane

Dohnny Jepp wrote: »

This is something that always made me curious. I myself would like to believe. . .but don't. Maybe I'm an athiest. .well I'm an agnostic anyway (cover all angles:P).

From talking to extended family who would be firm believers, the conversation always drifts around to the afterlife. That when they die they go to heaven and meet all they have lost through out their lives. To me this seems like peoples main reason for believing, they refuse to believe that there is an end and want to believe that they can live forever no matter how illogical it may seem. (Disclaimer: Illogical from my point of view, I fully acknowledge this may seem logical to others)

I have also noticed that the older people get the more they practice, and I put this down to what they fear getting closer.

What do you all think on this? Does this fear push peoples beliefs?

Yes, fear pushes people's beliefs.

Many are reluctant to believe our existence is meaningless and ends with death. That tends them to look for a spiritual dimension, notably a Creator who values them.

Others are fearful that death is not the end, and that they will have to give an account for their behaviour in this life. Some respond to this by seeking to get right with their Judge. Others respond by firmly rejecting the idea of an after-life, refusing to allow themselves to consider the possibility again.

All of these responses, the atheistic and the theistic, are driven by fear.

You seem to imply that fear is an illogical or even unworthy response. It can be - house-spiders and mice pose too little a threat to warrant screaming and climbing on the sofa. But finding a funnel-web spider on your bathroom floor would be another matter, as would a rat emerging from your toilet bowl as you sat upon it.

Fear of being without meaning, or of judgement in the after-life, is a logical and worthy human response.

Dohnny Jepp

wolfsbane wrote: »

You seem to imply that fear is an illogical or even unworthy response.

I tried very hard to avoid sounding like that, I even put in a disclaimer!

So to clarify, I don't believe it unworthy nor do I think fear is illogical, It is simply human behavior

tdv123

PDN wrote: »

No, the fear of death isn't a big part of my faith at all.

When I was an atheist I didn't fear death, because I reckoned there was nothing more anyway.

Now I'm a Christian I don't fear death as I know I'm going to spend eternity with Jesus Christ.

You mean you believe you will spend eternity with Jesus Christ don't you?

Isn't the whole point in having faith not knowing & just believing?

PDN

tdv123 wrote: »

You mean you believe you will spend eternity with Jesus Christ don't you?

Isn't the whole point in having faith not knowing & just believing?

No, I mean that I know.

The point of having faith is to love God, follow Him, and enjoy His presence.

This idea that faith cannot be based on knowledge - 'blind faith' if you will - seems to pop up on this forum from time to time. It seems like a lot of non-Christians out there fundamentally misunderstand what Christians mean when they talk about faith.

I guess we need to work harder at getting our message out there!

herbiemcc

It seems paradoxical to me how a christian can know they are going to heaven. Is there no trace of humility at all? If 90% of the world's population will be condemned to eternal flames (or 100% B.C.) isn't there a chance that you could in some way fail the test?

How can a christian be so sure? Or if all christians go to heaven by way of their 'special relationship' then why try too hard to be the best christian ever if you'll get there anyway by just being in the bottom bunch?

antiskeptic

herbiemcc wrote: »

It seems paradoxical to me how a christian can know they are going to heaven. Is there no trace of humility at all?

PDN noted that the nature of Christian faith (i.e.: it is not blind) is a message that doesn't seem to be getting across. Judging by this, the nature of salvation (something given as a gift and undeserved) is a message that isn't getting across either.

Why should someone display humility for the fact they've been given a gift they didn't deserve?

If 90% of the world's population will be condemned to eternal flames (or 100% B.C.) isn't there a chance that you could in some way fail the test?

You can't fail a test you've passed (not that 'test' is the best word to use).

People were saved in OT times too..

How can a christian be so sure?

Do you suppose God can make them sure? If supposing him able and willing to do that then you would have an answer (if not proof)

Or if all christians go to heaven by way of their 'special relationship' then why try too hard to be the best christian ever if you'll get there anyway by just being in the bottom bunch?

Suppose for a moment that the qualifying criterion satisfied, which results in a person being made a Christian by God in the first place, is a heart-hatred/weariness/disgust/deep repulsion/etc .. of evil within. No surprise then that Christians go on being motivated to flee from evil - their attitude to it is what made them Christians in the first place.

Besides..

I paid out big bucks for tickets to U2's 360 gig in Paris last summer (as an on-honeymoon treat). Whilst everyone seated in that stadium enjoyed a fantastic spectacle, it was much more enjoyable to be seated right up at the front - eye level with the stage - than way up high at the very back.

There will be greater and lesser in the Kingdom of God

herbiemcc

"There will be greater and lesser in the Kingdom of God "

More smug inhumility. Can't you see what you're saying? You assume you'll be above others when you get in. On his right side probably.

What is the point in tring to be good in life if you know you're getting in. You say it's humbling to get a gift you don't deserve. That's only true if you firmly believe you're failing his standard no matter how hard you try and are therefore going to Hell. Then at the end he surprises you with entry to heaven.

Only then are you truly humble.

When you assume the gift will be there then you're like a spoilt child.

By the way your U2 anecdote betrays a complete lack of christian traits (or in my experience perfectly encapsulates it). Why didn't you let them all up to the front and you go back? I've heard that the meek will inherit it all anyway.

antiskeptic

herbiemcc wrote: »

More smug inhumility. Can't you see what you're saying? You assume you'll be above others when you get in. On his right side probably.

I think the problem is more your reading comprehension. It's not smug to say I'll be at the gig. It's not smug to point out that part of the motivation for living a godly life involves a better seat at the gig.

What is the point in tring to be good in life if you know you're getting in.

See my point about the seating options.

You say it's humbling to get a gift you don't deserve. That's only true if you firmly believe you're failing his standard no matter how hard you try and are therefore going to Hell. Then at the end he surprises you with entry to heaven.

Only then are you truly humble.

I beg to differ.

When you assume the gift will be there then you're like a spoilt child.

There is no assumption. It's there. It can't be helped. What you seem to be suggesting is that God conform to the timing you think his gift should be given. Which is hardly humilty.

By the way your U2 anecdote betrays a complete lack of christian traits (or in my experience perfectly encapsulates it). Why didn't you let them all up to the front and you go back? I've heard that the meek will inherit it all anyway.

God isn't anti-money. Which means he isn't anti-the things money can buy. Which means he isn't anti-me and my wife having a great seat at a gig.

Soul Winner

Memnoch wrote: »

So you were/are afraid of death. Someone told you a story that you no longer had to fear death because "religion" told you it wasn't the end of things. This story gave you comfort from the fear of death. You chose to believe in this story as it gave you comfort.

Yes but that is not the whole story. Sure I wanted the story to be true, but that is not what convinced me that it was in fact true. I became convinced that is what in fact because of the many books I've read and lectures/talks I've heard defending it. I've heard all the counter arguments too and none of them hold any water at all. So what else am I supposed to do with such a story? I don't fear death anymore as I now know that it is but a door to a much better existence than this temporal existence I'm living now, as good and all as that can be at times.

The reason I feared death so much at such an early age was because my brother died in an accident when I was 8 years old, he was 9. After the funeral the thoughts of him in the grave rotting away really terrified me. I could not come to grips with the finality of death. It was a very depressing for me, the thought that that is what awaits me someday. Thankfully though death and the grave are not the final word.

Memnoch wrote: »

Yet you ask if it had any bearing on the truthfulness of faith?

The truth claims of the Christian faith are either true or not. If they are true then they are true wholly apart from anyone's belief (or not) in them.

Memnoch wrote: »

Since there is no empircal evidence for religious faith, it all comes down to what you CHOSE to believe. The reasons for those beliefs are then incredibly important to examine since they are the pillars upon which faith rests.

The disciples had empirical evidence for the resurrection of Jesus. The tomb was empty and He appeared to them alive and vital for many days after His death. This is what they died claiming to be eye witness to. They were not simply dying for a belief in something passed on by an older generation, they died claiming to be eye witnesses to these things. They would not all have paid such a high price for something that they knew to be false, which means that what they reported was true, hence He rose and ascended as reported and will return one day to judge the living and the dead.

Memnoch wrote: »

Death is unknown, we don't really know what happens when we die, if something happens. Humans need to be able to define the world around us in a way that we can understand so that we can survive in it, this is an evolutionary trait. We aren't able to comprehend oblivion or nothingness, and this scares us a great deal.

Yes but when somebody whose claims of divinity were vindicated by His resurrection from the dead who claimed to come from beyond that realm of the unknown to tell us about what lies ahead for us, we would be wise to take heed of what He says wouldn't you agree? If you don't believe that He was who He claimed to be then what is your conclusion based on? If He actually wasn't who He claimed to be then I'm with you in your assertion above. We are better off going it alone and finding out for ourselves with whatever means that are available to us in the natural realm.

Memnoch wrote: »

And that is what religious faith really boils down to. A way of dealing with the unknown that gives us comfort. So yeah, the way we look at death certainly hasa large bearing on our belief in faith.

Yes in certain respects that is true but as I've pointed out above that is not what makes the claims of the religion in question true or not. They either start out true or false and accepting or not accepting them has no bearing at all on the truthfulness (or not) of them.

daithiocondun

I would doubt that people join religions due to a fear of death. Most people are born into their religion and never stray too far away from that. However, it is no coincidence that virtually all world religions have an element of afterlife in their theology.

The entire concept of an afterlife is, most certainally, a man made one. And I'm sure it does stem from a fear of death, or, more probably, it is due in humanities resistance to our own finitude. We won't accept that this is it.

As for what that heaven is like, we don't know. It is naieve to think that we will meet our loved ones akin to meeting them on earth. That wouldn't be heaven... quite the opposite when you think about it.

JimiTime

daithiocondun wrote: »

The entire concept of an afterlife is, most certainally, a man made one. .

These kinds of statements crack me up. Talk about getting ahead of oneself.

PDN

herbiemcc wrote: »

It seems paradoxical to me how a christian can know they are going to heaven. Is there no trace of humility at all? If 90% of the world's population will be condemned to eternal flames (or 100% B.C.) isn't there a chance that you could in some way fail the test?

It makes me laugh when people play this nonsensical humility card.

God has said in his Bible that all who call on his Name will be saved. Now which of the following displays more humility?

a) Well, even though I believe the Bible to be God's word, God might be wrong. In fact, I might have more insight on this matter than God, therefore I will reserve judgement on the matter.

b) God knows more than me. Therefore I lay down my own personal reservations about my lack of worthiness, and fully believe what God has said on the matter.

It's nothing to do with passing or failing any test. Christians believe that God has told us in the Bible what is necessary to be saved. Our 'knowing' we are saved is not based on anything good we have done - it is a humble acceptance of God's Word. So please cut out the crap about arrogance.

(or 100% B.C.)

Ach, now you're just demonstrating your total ignorance about what Christians believe. Nobody here thinks 100% of the people born before Christ were denied salvation.

Or if all christians go to heaven by way of their 'special relationship' then why try too hard to be the best christian ever if you'll get there anyway by just being in the bottom bunch?

You really haven't a clue what we believe, have you?

Christians do not do good in order to earn their way to heaven, no more than I try to be nice to my wife purely in order to avoid divorce.

We try to be the best Christians we can because we love God and we want to grow in our relationship with him.

Zombrex

Dohnny Jepp wrote: »

What do you all think on this? Does this fear push peoples beliefs?

The evidence would suggest not really.

It seems that confusion is what pushes people beliefs.

Humans are drawn to excepting explanations about things that make sense to them, making sense being concepts and ideas that fit a certain pattern that the brain can easily process.

You can see this in everything, though religion and other supernatural explanations are some of the most blatant.

It seems some what obvious, humans believe things that make sense. To see how that applies to religion though you need to look at the particular way the human brain makes sense of things and why religion appeals to that sense so strongly.

So, while humans have a strong evolved instinct to avoid death and this is reflected in a lot of supernatural beliefs, it is not really accurate to say that this is what pushes people's beliefs.

JimiTime

PDN wrote: »

Christians do not do good in order to earn their way to heaven, no more than I try to be nice to my wife purely in order to avoid divorce.

We try to be the best Christians we can because we love God and we want to grow in our relationship with him.

Well said. Its crazy the amount of people who think in terms of 'Why not just do what you want and then convert on your deathbed'. Its like, 'You really don't get it do you'. The Divorce analogy is a great one.

I think alot of people really don't grasp the idea of 'loving' God or indeed the concept of a 'relationship' with God. Religion is the book of rules that we follow selfishly in order to get a reward and it gets in the way of 'fun' and 'doing what you want'.