Rip off Ireland and the martial arts

yomchi

Is it possible to earn a lively wage from teaching martial arts? I know that is a loose question, but there are so many good quality martial arts coaches out there teaching top quality stuff and there are as many charlatans teaching rubbish and selling their students all sorts of 'deals' to make a quick buck.

How would you classify a rip off martial arts coach?

Would it be someone who says you can only buy equipment from him or her?

Would it be someone who pretends to know more than they do and charge for extra information through the selling of DVD's etc.

Any opinions on what your classic rip off merchant is?

Niall Keane

Yomchi, to give my opinion on your first question, from the reputable or "honorable" coaches I know who can teach for a living they teach kids and this subsidises their serious (loss-making) fighter classes. What they teach kids is honest and they give all, some kids very rarely continue to train to adulthood most quit and most parents use such martialarts as late in the day cheap creches.
As you'll probably accept there is a limit to what to what you can teach a kid unless you want to be found guilty of physical abuse. And even most adults I'd say 99 percent haven't got it in then to train for full contact.
For the record as many here already know I don't opperate to run a profitable business I only train fighters as I have the luxurious position of teaching martial arts as a second income. I do so to pass on an art as it was passed to me and to keep it alive, but 9 out of 10 who walk through my doors won't last 2 weeks. From my experience you have two choices compromise and water down an art to make it generally appealing and make the training and conditioning "enjoyable" or at least acceptable to your average Joe looking for a quick fix or subsidise the real classes with public or child classes which is the route most reputable gyms seem to take?

arybvtcw0eolkf

Sorry I can't add a whole lot to this discussion, which is probably a good thing.

Only to say I agree with Niall (above) re. teaching children, although I don't run my own Judo class I coach one the childrens' class in one of the Judo clubs I train in.

The club teaches very traditional Japanese Judo, ie instead of going straight into randori with beginners they're taught the fundimentials of Judo before going into hard 'live' randori (sparring), a lot of adults don't want that these days so the club finds it hard to keep members once they've progressed past their lower kyu's. Our head coach (for the want of a better word) won't sell out his principles and continues to keep the club one of the cheapest places to train (€3 for children & €5 for adults), I should add also that the club has had some of our Judo olympians start their Judo careers with it.

I guess thats my example of a good club, fortunetely I can not speak with any experience of a 'bad' (rip off) club or coach except for some exaggerated claims I've read through magazine and online advertising.

Barry.Oglesby

I would like to think that we run a "good" club. My kids class (4yrs-11yrs) has the sum total of 7 kids in it. I teach them BJJ and play games with them. They get on great but they wrestle all the time and a lot of people don't want that for their kids. I understand that, and I understand that if I taught them air punching (like I used to in TKD) I'd have 30+ kids and could line them up and yell instruction and have a better car.

My teenagers likewise. They do BJJ/MMA one day and Muay Thai the next and some of them do strength on another. We teach them the way we believe they will get good which isn't for every kid. We could teach them "UFC" from day one and we'd have a busy class. But instead they have to come in and learn things like stance, footwork etc. for about a month before they get to do anything and the chances of getting a 14 year old willing to do that when his mates are elsewhere learning the Anderson Silva spinning elbow are slim. The good news on that front is that the lads who stick with it are gems of kids and are learning a lot more than just fighting. If I thought them another way, I'd probably be able to get a new kitchen.

As for adults, our beginner level classes are open to all but like a lot of clubs that train the way we do, we get a lot of people training a bit and then realising that they're not going to learn advanced GnP from top guard next week, they leave. They have wonderful tee shirts though, and I'd probably be able to buy a few €80 Affliction tees a month if I thought them what they wanted to know from day one.

Doug Cartel

As far as I'm concerned a club can charge whatever they like and the market can decide id it's a fair price.

What I don't consider fair though, is if they have a pile of hidden costs - e.g. you have to buy all your equipment from the club; you have to grade every two months, and there's a hefty fee included in that; you are told that attending some seminar you're not interested in is a requirement for your next grade; etc. Another thing is if new members are pressured into signing year long contracts before they've had adequate time to try the place out.

Dyr

On the subject of charging what you like, one thing that I've always disliked is clubs putting up things like "contact us" on their websites and flyers when it comes to pricing. To me it smacks of the old sales thing that it will be harder for someone to say no in person to a price than when its in black and white.

So clubs should be like pubs, clear price list please

arybvtcw0eolkf

Bambi wrote: »

On the subject of charging what you like, one thing that I've always disliked is clubs putting up things like "contact us" on their websites and flyers when it comes to pricing. To me it smacks of the old sales thing that it will be harder for someone to say no in person to a price than when its in black and white.

So clubs should be like pubs, clear price list please

Or clubs who claim they've "trained members of the Defence Forces" (and similar), maybe its just me, but it leaves me thinking 'Yea, big fecking deal. You've probably trained members of An Post & Dublin Bus too'..

Doug Cartel

Bambi wrote: »

On the subject of charging what you like, one thing that I've always disliked is clubs putting up things like "contact us" on their websites and flyers when it comes to pricing. To me it smacks of the old sales thing that it will be harder for someone to say no in person to a price than when its in black and white.

So clubs should be like pubs, clear price list please

Yeah I don't like this either. I'm in the middle of looking for a place to train during the Summer, and quite a few places are very coy about their pricing. (Though there's one place I saw where I'm pretty sure it's more down to crap website design than any attempt to go for the hard sell.)

I can understand why they'd do it though. Monthly prices do look very high when you see them written down - even if they work out quite reasonable when you calculate the cost per class.

Sid_Justice

are they revenue compliant is what i don't want to know

yomchi

Doug Cartel wrote: »

As far as I'm concerned a club can charge whatever they like and the market can decide id it's a fair price.

What I don't consider fair though, is if they have a pile of hidden costs - e.g. you have to buy all your equipment from the club; you have to grade every two months, and there's a hefty fee included in that; you are told that attending some seminar you're not interested in is a requirement for your next grade; etc. Another thing is if new members are pressured into signing year long contracts before they've had adequate time to try the place out.

Spot on Doug, you put it better than I. It's the hidden costs that get people, and you've clearly outlined them there as some examples.

Barry.Oglesby

It seems people are giving their impression of stuff they don't like rather than stuff that's unethical or mcdojolike.

For example, I've trained members of the defence forces, and it says so on my bio page. I have trained members of the defence forces, and they came to me for extra fitness and combat sports training. Whether or not people wish me to place that as a part of my marketing for my gym is not my concern, but the fact remains that I did that work, I was paid for it and I reserve the right to place it on my website. For the record, one of them sent me a testimonial to put up, but I never did. How is that in any way unethical or dishonest?

Pricing being publicly displayed I can understand. (we have our pricing on our site) It is irritating to have to call people up to get a price for anything but in people's defence, this is a competitive world and as any salesperson will tell you, getting to put your pitch across is the best opportunity you can have. If a place is more expensive than it's competitors, they may want the opportunity to explain what they offer that justifies the extra cost. People don't have to sign up or pay for talking. So I think that's irritating more than unethical. It's not akin to pubs as you don't order a month's training and then get stung with the bill afterwards!

Hidden costs are just plain evil. Parents are the most stung of course and worse again is escalating grade costs. €20 for yellow belt, orange, well that's darker innit? €30 for that. And green belt? Well you HAVE to get that isn't little Billy getting one. Cost ya €50 though...

Overall though I'm not too worried. I don't like to be associated with martial arts generally to be honest as I think overall the whole business side of it is a bit silly at best. To give you an example we had a new member last year who'd trained at another gym for a good while. he texted me every time he was coming to class "is it on tonight?" and this went on for about 3 weeks I'd say. Eventually I had to reassure him not to worry, that someone was always there and politely ask him to only text me when it was important! There are a lot of guys out there charging professional money as their second income and giving amateur service.

Dyr

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

For example, I've trained members of the defence forces, and it says so on my bio page. I have trained members of the defence forces, and they came to me for extra fitness and combat sports training. Whether or not people wish me to place that as a part of my marketing for my gym is not my concern, but the fact remains that I did that work,

The devil is in the detail, or how it's worded. For example a lot of guys might have trained members of the defence forces or gardai in a private capacity but they word this in a manner that would suggest that they were hired by these bodies to train their members, which is entirely different. I remember reading about one martial artist who claimed to be part of ronald reagans security detail, which probably meant that he was on duty along with the most of the army when Ronnie visited ballyporeen or wherever. :rolleyes:

arybvtcw0eolkf

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

It seems people are giving their impression of stuff they don't like rather than stuff that's unethical or mcdojolike.

For example, I've trained members of the defence forces, and it says so on my bio page. I have trained members of the defence forces, and they came to me for extra fitness and combat sports training. Whether or not people wish me to place that as a part of my marketing for my gym is not my concern, but the fact remains that I did that work, I was paid for it and I reserve the right to place it on my website. For the record, one of them sent me a testimonial to put up, but I never did. How is that in any way unethical or dishonest?

Good post, I won't quote it all.

I've glanced through your blog, simply because I like the things Will talks about here and in the fitness forum but didn't come accross any testimonials, and tbh on your blog I wouldn't read them as I've no doubts about your integrity.

Some of the army guys you've had through your door's probably came from my recommendation. You'd be surprised at how many read this forum and ask for recommendations.

So when I'm asked to recommend a club in the locality of my job I've two choices - yourselves, or the club no one here is allowed mention - who do you think I'm going to send my guys to?.

McDoJo's are another thing entirely, and when they associate their training methods with the Defence Forces it gets my tits wobbling.

Its almost embarressing but I'm often asked in work about the guys advertising Krav Maga training too - now that sh*t is pure 'rip off Ireland' IMO.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Bambi wrote: »

The devil is in the detail, or how it's worded. For example a lot of guys might have trained members of the defence forces or gardai in a private capacity but they word this in a manner that would suggest that they were hired by these bodies to train their members, which is entirely different. I remember reading about one martial artist who claimed to be part of ronald reagans security detail, which probably meant that he was on duty along with the most of the army when Ronnie visited ballyporeen or wherever. :rolleyes:

Thats exactly what I was trying to say, thanks.

Barry.Oglesby

Bambi wrote: »

The devil is in the detail, or how it's worded. For example a lot of guys might have trained members of the defence forces or gardai in a private capacity but they word this in a manner that would suggest that they were hired by these bodies to train their members, which is entirely different. I remember reading about one martial artist who claimed to be part of ronald reagans security detail, which probably meant that he was on duty along with the most of the army when Ronnie visited ballyporeen or wherever. :rolleyes:

Was that the guy who said he protected Michael Jackson too? I think I know who you're on about.

I'm playing devil's advocate as I happen to agree with you. I just think it's important that people recognise that there are a lot of genuine people out there making true claims as to their experience as well as the muppets.