JFK quote...

Rosahane

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich.
John F. Kennedy

...so what does this make us - Fianna fail dupes obviously:mad:

FlutterinBantam

Right, you answered your own question




NEXT!!!

The Raven.

Rosahane wrote: »

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich.
John F. Kennedy

...so what does this make us - Fianna fail dupes obviously:mad:

It is a good quote, and very apt for the current situation.

To answer your question, no, it makes most of us victims, but not ‘dupes’. We didn’t all vote for Fianna Fail. JFK explains it better:

‘The ignorance of one voter in a democracy impairs the security of all.’ John F. Kennedy

orourkeda

The Raven. wrote: »

It is a good quote, and very apt for the current situation.

To answer your question, no, it makes most of us victims, but not ‘dupes’. We didn’t all vote for Fianna Fail. JFK explains it better:

‘The ignorance of one voter in a democracy impairs the security of all.’ John F. Kennedy

Victims No.

Perceived victims yes. It amazes me that irish people refuse to accept their part in the election of the FF party to government.

They didnt get there by accident. They amassed the requisite number of votes to gain power and the irish population has nobody to blame but themselves.

hallelujajordan

Rosahane wrote: »

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich.
John F. Kennedy

...so what does this make us - Fianna fail dupes obviously:mad:

I like the quote . . and I think it is very appropriate for a society like the US who do not believe in the notion of a welfare state and who have taken almost half a century since JFK was assassinated to come to terms with the principle of universal health care . . and even then with an extremely divided society . .

However, I don't see how it relates to Ireland or to FF . .

If you want to learn about how Ireland treats its poor, read the annual SILC reports on cso.ie (http://www.cso.ie/eusilc/pub_rel_eusilc.htm)

Here is some summary information from the most recent report (2008)

At Risk of poverty rate
2005 - 18.5%
2006 - 17%
2007 - 16.5%
2008 - 14.4%

Consistent poverty rate
2005 - 7%
2006 - 6.5%
2007 - 5.1%
2008 - 4.2%

I have no doubt that the numbers will have increased when 2009 data is published (as they likely will in almost every European country) due to the increase in unemployment but throughout the recession the government have consistently stayed away from social welfare as a source of cost-saving.

The Raven.

orourkeda wrote: »

Victims No.

Perceived victims yes. It amazes me that irish people refuse to accept their part in the election of the FF party to government.

They didnt get there by accident. They amassed the requisite number of votes to gain power and the irish population has nobody to blame but themselves.

I see you are still insisting that all Irish people are to blame for the 41.6% of the vote, which went to Fianna Fail in the last general election. What about the other 58.4% who tried to vote them out? What about those who voted for the Greens, never suspecting that they would let us all down by going into government with Fianna Fail?

I still maintain that those who didn’t vote for Fianna Fail are indeed victims of the shortsightedness of FF voters, not just ‘perceived’ as such. What did you expect us to do? Hold a gun to their heads at the polling stations :rolleyes:?

Please correct me if my figures above are too simplistic in view of the complexities of vote transfers etc. but the principle still remains.

hallelujajordan

The Raven. wrote: »

I see you are still insisting that all Irish people are to blame for the 41.6% of the vote, which went to Fianna Fail in the last general election. What about the other 58.4% who tried to vote them out? What about those who voted for the Greens, never suspecting that they would let us all down by going into government with Fianna Fail?

I still maintain that those who didn’t vote for Fianna Fail are indeed victims of the shortsightedness of FF voters, not just ‘perceived’ as such. What did you expect us to do? Hold a gun to their heads at the polling stations :rolleyes:?

Please correct me if my figures above are too simplistic in view of the complexities of vote transfers etc. but the principle still remains.

Your figures are too simplistic for one very significant reason .. During the boom years and most recently on the run up to the last election, FG offered no significantly different economic policies . . In short, had FG been elected in 2007 (or even before then) we would still be where we are today . . There are many on here who will dispute this assertion but none of them will point to clear differences in economic philosophy that would have prevented our current situation.

We (the people - i.e. collective majority) supported the economic policies that brought us lower taxes, free money in the form of SSIA's and as a result foreign holidays and new cars. . . We (the people - i.e. collective majority) ought to accept our role not just in the election of FF but in the development of such policies that would have been implemented regardless of the colour of the governing parties.

The Raven.

hallelujajordan wrote: »

I like the quote . . and I think it is very appropriate for a society like the US who do not believe in the notion of a welfare state and who have taken almost half a century since JFK was assassinated to come to terms with the principle of universal health care . . and even then with an extremely divided society . .

However, I don't see how it relates to Ireland or to FF . .

If you want to learn about how Ireland treats its poor, read the annual SILC reports on cso.ie (http://www.cso.ie/eusilc/pub_rel_eusilc.htm)

Here is some summary information from the most recent report (2008)

At Risk of poverty rate
2005 - 18.5%
2006 - 17%
2007 - 16.5%
2008 - 14.4%

Consistent poverty rate
2005 - 7%
2006 - 6.5%
2007 - 5.1%
2008 - 4.2%

I have no doubt that the numbers will have increased when 2009 data is published (as they likely will in almost every European country) due to the increase in unemployment but throughout the recession the government have consistently stayed away from social welfare as a source of cost-saving.

Interesting figures but, while they were calculating all of these statistics, the property bubble had been building up from the year 2000 and finally burst in 2008. Since then things have gone from worse to shocking, putting it mildly.

The Fianna Fail government may have ‘stayed away from social welfare’ in the past, but in 2009 the Minister for Finance started to borrow billions from the National Pensions Reserve Fund, which was set up in April 2001 to cover most of the cost of social welfare and public service pensions from 2025 onwards, as the cost is predicted to rise dramatically due to ageing population.

Fianna Fail have no qualms about borrowing this money to bail out the banks, with more than €18 billion alone being pumped into the corrupt Anglo Irish, on top of €4 billion last year. I don’t buy his excuses for doing this. The FF developer friends are holding this country to ransom with their crooked dealings, and it’s a case of robbing the poor to feed the rich.

But as John F. Kennedy said: ‘If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich.’ With the country awash with empty, unsold houses and apartments blocks, the chickens have come to roost, and these wealthy parasites are already getting their comeuppance.

hallelujajordan

The Raven. wrote: »

Interesting figures but, while they were calculating all of these statistics, the property bubble had been building up from the year 2000 and finally burst in 2008. Since then things have gone from worse to shocking, putting it mildly.

The Fianna Fail government may have ‘stayed away from social welfare’ in the past, but in 2009 the Minister for Finance started to borrow billions from the National Pensions Reserve Fund, which was set up in April 2001 to cover most of the cost of social welfare and public service pensions from 2025 onwards, as the cost is predicted to rise dramatically due to ageing population.
.

Agreed and as mentioned I share your confidence that the 2009 figures will show a reversal in trend due to the increase in unemployment. However, whatever the source of the wealth and it's rights or wrongs which we have debated ad nauseum on here I think its appropriate to dispel the myth put forward by the OP that FF have not taken care of the poorer sections of Irish society. In fact, when they had money to spend it was one of their greatest priorities which the figures I posted clearly illustrate.

WIZE

Ich Bin Ein Berliner - JFK

I am a Doughnut - Cowen

The Raven.

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Your figures are too simplistic for one very significant reason .. During the boom years and most recently on the run up to the last election, FG offered no significantly different economic policies . . In short, had FG been elected in 2007 (or even before then) we would still be where we are today . . There are many on here who will dispute this assertion but none of them will point to clear differences in economic philosophy that would have prevented our current situation.

You may well be right about Fine Gael, but it is pure speculation to say that ‘…had FG been elected in 2007 (or even before then) we would still be where we are today.’ In any case, how does that make my figures too simplistic?

We (the people - i.e. collective majority) supported the economic policies that brought us lower taxes, free money in the form of SSIA's and as a result foreign holidays and new cars. . . We (the people - i.e. collective majority) ought to accept our role not just in the election of FF but in the development of such policies that would have been implemented regardless of the colour of the governing parties.

I don’t go along with the use of ‘We (the people - i.e. collective majority)’ in this context, as it creates a false statement. The figures are clear to see. It is the Fianna Fail voters who should stand up and admit that they are to blame for putting FF in power, and refrain from blaming the subsequent problems on the rest of us. I refuse to accept the blame for other people’s blunders. The only thing that I will concede here is that at least some of them will recognise that they were misguided and have been badly let down.

The Raven.

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Agreed and as mentioned I share your confidence that the 2009 figures will show a reversal in trend due to the increase in unemployment. However, whatever the source of the wealth and it's rights or wrongs which we have debated ad nauseum on here I think its appropriate to dispel the myth put forward by the OP that FF have not taken care of the poorer sections of Irish society. In fact, when they had money to spend it was one of their greatest priorities which the figures I posted clearly illustrate.

Yes, I agree that your figures do show that. However, the situation that allowed developers and bankers to bankrupt the country is now causing extreme hardship for large sections of society.

The OP seems to have abandoned the thread. Clarification of the original post would be welcome !

hallelujajordan

The Raven. wrote: »

You may well be right about Fine Gael, but it is pure speculation to say that ‘…had FG been elected in 2007 (or even before then) we would still be where we are today.’ In any case, how does that make my figures too simplistic?

I don’t go along with the use of ‘We (the people - i.e. collective majority)’ in this context, as it creates a false statement. The figures are clear to see. It is the Fianna Fail voters who should stand up and admit that they are to blame for putting FF in power, and refrain from blaming the subsequent problems on the rest of us. I refuse to accept the blame for other people’s blunders. The only thing that I will concede here is that at least some of them will recognise that they were misguided and have been badly let down.

And I as a FF voter and member am happy to take that responsibility ... 100% and I think the best way to take responsibility is to work to drive change, both nationally and within FF.

I'm really not blaming anyone else for the 'subsequent problems' . . I simply believe that we are where we are because we as a country gave a mandate to a set of economic policies that made us, for the most part, personally wealthier (and I would include in this 'we' anyone who voted FG at the last election). I don't believe I am speculating about where we would be under a FG government. Their policies and election manifesto's are not a secret and it isn't unreasonable to assume that similar policies might have led to a similar effect.

The Raven.

hallelujajordan wrote: »

And I as a FF voter and member am happy to take that responsibility ... 100% and I think the best way to take responsibility is to work to drive change, both nationally and within FF.

I'm really not blaming anyone else for the 'subsequent problems' . . I simply believe that we are where we are because we as a country gave a mandate to a set of economic policies that made us, for the most part, personally wealthier (and I would include in this 'we' anyone who voted FG at the last election). I don't believe I am speculating about where we would be under a FG government. Their policies and election manifesto's are not a secret and it isn't unreasonable to assume that similar policies might have led to a similar effect.

Well, all I can say is that I don't share your faith in Fianna Fail, especially because of the banking mess and the way that developers were allowed to destroy the environment on an unprecedented scale. However, I don't believe that Fine Gael care very much for the poorer members of society.