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Do you believe homosexual acts are immoral?

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  • 02-04-2010 4:25pm
    #1
    strobe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭


    I just thought I'd put this one to you if you don't mind. I know that it is spoken about in the Bible but I noticed in another thread on here that a lot of people said that the rules that applied in the past for the Jews didn't apply today. I think it was antiskeptic that made a very good analogy to explain his thoughts on this using the idea of an egg [Edit: It was antiskeptic http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=64634985&postcount=3 ], and how things that made sense in the time before Jesus shouldn't apply now. I'm sure there are several examples I could choose from but homosexual behaviour is the first that sprang to mind.

    As a Christian do you believe homosexual acts are immoral? 14 votes

    Yes
    0% 0 votes
    No
    100% 14 votes


Comments

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    #2
    Ghost Buster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,172 ✭✭✭Ghost Buster


    strobe wrote: »
    I just thought I'd put this one to you if you don't mind. I know that it is spoken about in the Bible but I noticed in another thread on here that a lot of people said that the rules that applied in the past for the Jews didn't apply today. I think it was antiskeptic that made a very good analogy to explain his thoughts on this using the idea of an egg [Edit: It was antiskeptic http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=64634985&postcount=3 ], and how things that made sense in the time before Jesus shouldn't apply now. I'm sure there are several examples I could choose from but homosexuality is the first that sprang to mind.

    If I was an omnipotent all powerful creator of the universe would I be remotely bothered by what adults get up to with their rude bits in the privacy of their own homes?
    Yes:
    No:
    :cool:
    Or

    If I was a bloke with issues concerning my sexuality would I make up a rule and attribute it to a god to make me feel better?
    Yes:
    No:
    :eek:


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    #3
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    I think your poll, and your initial post, are fatally flawed.

    The usual Christian position is that homosexual acts are immoral, but today people tend to use the word 'homosexuality' to refer to orientation. So the ambiguous wording of the poll will probably create more heat than light.

    Secondly, the stuff about laws for the Jews is pretty irrelevant here. The idea that Christians are anti-homosexuality because of verses in Leviticus is a bit of an urban legend - the only people I've met who actually believed it have been drive-by atheists who post silliness in here about shellfish.

    Most Christians believe homosexual acts to be immoral because of what the New Testament teaches, not the Old. Also, they don't believe homosexual acts to be any more sinful than a load of other stuff such as telling fibs, heterosexual acts outside of marriage, or praying to a statue of Kali.


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    #4
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    Ghost Buster wrote: »
    If I was an omnipotent all powerful creator of the universe would I be remotely bothered by what adults get up to with their rude bits in the privacy of their own homes?
    Yes:
    No:
    :cool:
    Or

    If I was a bloke with issues concerning my sexuality would I make up a rule and attribute it to a god to make me feel better?
    Yes:
    No:
    :eek:

    If you were the omnipotent all powerful (what other kind of omnipotent is there?) creator of the universe you hopefully wouldn't post nonsense in this forum.


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    #5
    strobe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭strobe


    PDN wrote: »
    I think your poll, and your initial post, are fatally flawed.

    I edited the OP and thread title, could you edit the poll question to reflect this for me?


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    #6
    wolfsbane
    Registered Users Posts: 5,980 ✭✭✭wolfsbane


    strobe wrote: »
    I just thought I'd put this one to you if you don't mind. I know that it is spoken about in the Bible but I noticed in another thread on here that a lot of people said that the rules that applied in the past for the Jews didn't apply today. I think it was antiskeptic that made a very good analogy to explain his thoughts on this using the idea of an egg [Edit: It was antiskeptic http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=64634985&postcount=3 ], and how things that made sense in the time before Jesus shouldn't apply now. I'm sure there are several examples I could choose from but homosexual behaviour is the first that sprang to mind.
    Both homosexual acts and the desire to do them are immoral. Same as for heterosexual acts and the desire to do them that are outside of marriage.

    Note the difference - heterosexual sex is good, if within marriage; homosexual sex is evil in all circumstances.

    As PDN points out, Christian rejection of homosexuality is based primarily on the NT teaching, not the OT.


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    #7
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    wolfsbane wrote: »
    Both homosexual acts and the desire to do them are immoral. Same as for heterosexual acts and the desire to do them that are outside of marriage.

    Note the difference - heterosexual sex is good, if within marriage; homosexual sex is evil in all circumstances.

    As PDN points out, Christian rejection of homosexuality is based primarily on the NT teaching, not the OT.

    Out of interest, do you have this view only because of what the bible tells you or do you have any objective reason for these beliefs outside of what is in the Bible/taught by religon?


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    #8
    muboop1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,025 ✭✭✭muboop1


    See, I have a problem with this.

    In all walks of life we find homosexuality, animals etc...

    There have been studies in the past which indicate that to dull it down;

    To stereotype insanely, you know the average homosexual guy we all see on TV etc, high pitched voice, flamboyant etc?

    Well that higher pitch voice is caused naturally by a hormone imbalance whereby they have less testosterone then the average male.

    Such people naturally seek partners with higher testosterone levels possibly as a defensive mechanism? need a partner to protect them or whatever...

    So that they are attracted to other males is not their fault but as a result of their genetics...

    Are they to deny themselves all that they want in the name of God?

    If the bible told man it was a Sin to lust and perform sexual acts with a partner they love, would all holy Christian men deny themselves this love and pleasure??

    It's very easy to judge when you are naturally inclined to do what is deemed as unacceptable by religion. Put the show on the other foot and you might not feel the same.

    Remember being gay isn't a choice. And although acting on it is, its something all but the most retrained would fail at.


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    #9
    wolfsbane
    Registered Users Posts: 5,980 ✭✭✭wolfsbane


    drkpower wrote: »
    Out of interest, do you have this view only because of what the bible tells you or do you have any objective reason for these beliefs outside of what is in the Bible/taught by religon?
    Well, the Bible is my moral reason, but I do find homosexuality intellectually and ascetically perverse too.

    The latter reasons would not give me grounds for regarding it as immoral, however. There are many things I find distasteful that would not in themselves be immoral.


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    #10
    krudler
    Registered Users Posts: 34,788 ✭✭✭✭krudler


    wolfsbane wrote: »
    Both homosexual acts and the desire to do them are immoral. Same as for heterosexual acts and the desire to do them that are outside of marriage.

    Note the difference - heterosexual sex is good, if within marriage; homosexual sex is evil in all circumstances.

    As PDN points out, Christian rejection of homosexuality is based primarily on the NT teaching, not the OT.

    Brilliantly christian response there, so two men who love each other are evil?


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    #11
    wolfsbane
    Registered Users Posts: 5,980 ✭✭✭wolfsbane


    muboop1 wrote: »
    See, I have a problem with this.

    In all walks of life we find homosexuality, animals etc...

    There have been studies in the past which indicate that to dull it down;

    To stereotype insanely, you know the average homosexual guy we all see on TV etc, high pitched voice, flamboyant etc?

    Well that higher pitch voice is caused naturally by a hormone imbalance whereby they have less testosterone then the average male.

    Such people naturally seek partners with higher testosterone levels possibly as a defensive mechanism? need a partner to protect them or whatever...

    So that they are attracted to other males is not their fault but as a result of their genetics...

    Are they to deny themselves all that they want in the name of God?

    If the bible told man it was a Sin to lust and perform sexual acts with a partner they love, would all holy Christian men deny themselves this love and pleasure??

    It's very easy to judge when you are naturally inclined to do what is deemed as unacceptable by religion. Put the show on the other foot and you might not feel the same.

    Remember being gay isn't a choice. And although acting on it is, its something all but the most retrained would fail at.
    I don't accept natural inclination argument as a justification for the practice. Some of us are naturally inclined to quick temper or other evil, self-centred attitudes. We are sinners and whatever sinful aspect is to the fore in our make-up, it has to be crucified.

    But even the inclination argument is open to challenge regarding homosexuality. The possession of feminine traits may well attract masculine attention and so contribute to one's temptation in that area, but it is no excuse.

    Likewise the nurture argument. One may be raised in difficult circumstances that tend to tempt one to homosexual responses - the prominent mother figure, for example - but one should resist such unnatural pressures. We all have our problems to face in life, and we cannot justify our sinful behaviour by our background.

    I knew a man who was in prison for sexually abusing his sister. His justification (in his own eyes) was his high sex drive. It was undoubtedly a real problem - but it did not justify his behaviour. He ought to have dealt with it in a proper manner.

    Many people struggle with hatred and bitterness - they are not a choice, but a manifestation of a sinful attitude. Are we to say the feeling is OK but the action is not? No, the feeling too must be rooted out and abandoned.


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    #12
    wolfsbane
    Registered Users Posts: 5,980 ✭✭✭wolfsbane


    krudler wrote: »
    Brilliantly christian response there, so two men who love each other are evil?
    Yes. As is a man who loves his mother or sister in a similar sense. Or indeed his neighbour's wife.


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    #13
    33% God
    Closed Accounts Posts: 338 ✭✭33% God


    wolfsbane wrote: »
    I don't accept natural inclination argument as a justification for the practice. Some of us are naturally inclined to quick temper or other evil, self-centred attitudes. We are sinners and whatever sinful aspect is to the fore in our make-up, it has to be crucified.
    Except that here we have something which is being labelled as a sin despite the fact that it does not cause harm to anybody.
    But even the inclination argument is open to challenge regarding homosexuality. The possession of feminine traits may well attract masculine attention and so contribute to one's temptation in that area, but it is no excuse.

    Likewise the nurture argument. One may be raised in difficult circumstances that tend to tempt one to homosexual responses - the prominent mother figure, for example - but one should resist such unnatural pressures. We all have our problems to face in life, and we cannot justify our sinful behaviour by our background.

    Neither of your explanations are correct or backed by any evidence or what we know about human sexual orientation. It's little more than conjecture.

    Many people assume that human sexuality is a choice, is influenced by controllable factors such as personality or caused by upbringing. It is not. I cannot stress how important it is for people to understand that. People discover their sexual orientations; they do not choose them. Sexual preference seems to develop very early, and a child's first indication of the direction of their sexual preference usually does not change as he/she matures.

    One of the large influencing factors are genetics. There are a large number of studies from which we draw this conclusion. Two notable ones were conducted by Bailey and Pillard who studied a group of male homosexuals who had twin brothers, and they found that 52% of the monozygotic twin brothers and 22% of the dizygotic twin brothers were homosexual.
    Bailey JM, Pillard RC (1991). "A genetic study of male sexual orientation". Arch. Gen. Psychiatry 48 (12): 1089–96
    Later they found the same story with females. The concordance rates for homosexuality were 48% for monozygotic twins and 16% for dizygotic twins.
    Bailey JM, Pillard RC, Neale MC, Agyei Y. (1993 ). Heritable factors influence sexual orientation in women. Archives of General Psychiatry, 50, 217–223.

    Obviously this doesn't account for all of the variance, but we have found that in conjunction with early hormones (an environmental factor but not really a controllable one).
    A consistent pattern of results has been observed in the research on sexuality and exposure to perinatal hormones (Ellis & Ames, 1987) , which has (for obvious reasons) focused on non-human animals.
    In rats, hamsters, ferrets, pigs, zebra finches, and doggie woggies, perinatal castration of males and testosterone treatment of females have been shown to induce same-sex preferences. (Adkins-Regan, 1988; Baum et al., 1990; Hrabovzky & Hudson, 2002)
    It would of course be a mistake to ignore the profound cognitive and emotional components in human sexuality which have no counterpart in laboratory animals. However it would also be a mistake to assume that an incredibly consistent pattern that runs through so many mammalian species has no relevance to humans. (Swaab, 2004)
    As for human research, there have been quasi-experimental studies conducted. (Ehrhardt, 1985)
    We also have to look at the fraternal birth order effect, the finding that the probability of a man's being homosexual increases as a function of the number of older brothers that he has (Blanchard, 2004; Blanchard & Lippa, 2007) . A recent study of blended families (families in which biologically related siblings were raised with adopted or step-siblings) found that the effect is related to the number of boys previously born to the mother, not the number of boys one is reared with (Bogaert, 2007) .
    The effect is quite large: the probability of a male's being homosexual increases by 1/3 for every older brother that he has (Puts, Jordan, & Breedlove, 2006), and an estimated 15% of homosexual men can attribute their homosexuality to this effect (Cantor et al., 2002) . It is hypothesised that some mothers become progressively more immune to some masculinising hormone in male foetuses, and the mother's immune system might deactivate the masculinising hormone in younger brothers. This is known as the maternal immune hypothesis.





    I knew a man who was in prison for sexually abusing his sister. His justification (in his own eyes) was his high sex drive. It was undoubtedly a real problem - but it did not justify his behaviour. He ought to have dealt with it in a proper manner.

    Many people struggle with hatred and bitterness - they are not a choice, but a manifestation of a sinful attitude. Are we to say the feeling is OK but the action is not? No, the feeling too must be rooted out and abandoned.

    Again none of this is comparing like with like. It is obvious why hatred, bitterness or sexual abuse are sinful and should be discouraged. Arbitrarily holding the same attitude towards something as harmless as homosexuality is stupid.


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    #14
    krudler
    Registered Users Posts: 34,788 ✭✭✭✭krudler


    I knew a man who was in prison for sexually abusing his sister. His justification (in his own eyes) was his high sex drive. It was undoubtedly a real problem - but it did not justify his behaviour. He ought to have dealt with it in a proper manner.

    How is that the same thing? you're saying that a man who has genuine feelings for another man should forego these for his entire life and be miserable? People cant help being gay, you can attribute it to genetics, upbringing, lack of a father figure, whatever you want to (maybe god made them gay?)


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    #15
    krudler
    Registered Users Posts: 34,788 ✭✭✭✭krudler


    wolfsbane wrote: »
    Well, the Bible is my moral reason, but I do find homosexuality intellectually and ascetically perverse too.

    The latter reasons would not give me grounds for regarding it as immoral, however. There are many things I find distasteful that would not in themselves be immoral.

    The bible also says its immoral for a woman to wear mens clothes, by that logic my girlfriend is immoral for wearing my hoody at night when shes cold?


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    #16
    iUseVi
    Registered Users Posts: 1,435 ✭✭✭iUseVi


    krudler wrote: »
    The bible also says its immoral for a woman to wear mens clothes, by that logic my girlfriend is immoral for wearing my hoody at night when shes cold?

    I recommend you read his signature, you wouldn't have had to ask....:P


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    #17
    krudler
    Registered Users Posts: 34,788 ✭✭✭✭krudler


    iUseVi wrote: »
    I recommend you read his signature, you wouldn't have had to ask....:P

    :D


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    #18
    Max Power1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,272 ✭✭✭✭Max Power1


    man shall not lie with man as he does with women, simple message - god hates fags.


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    #19
    Fanny Cradock
    Registered Users Posts: 10,245 ✭✭✭✭Fanny Cradock


    I hate these type of threads. Invariably somebody is going to say something that offends somebody and then the **** hits the fan. Axes are ground, stereotypes are reinforced, and, ultimately, nobody is left any the wiser or better off after all the silliness and nastiness. On a personal note, I get a headache trying to keep everybody in check and finding the line between somebody who gives their opinion after being asked for it and when they are overstepping the mark.

    I'm going to strongly remind all people to pay very close attention to the charter.


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    #20
    krudler
    Registered Users Posts: 34,788 ✭✭✭✭krudler


    I dont understand how anyone can say they hate someone for their sexual orientation. What two consenting adults choose to do is nobody elses business but their own. This isnt paedophilia or some depraved act where someone gets hurt physically. I have plenty of gay friends and unlike the stereotype where they're running around shagging anyone who'll have them a lot of them are in stable monogamous relationships.


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    #21
    Fanny Cradock
    Registered Users Posts: 10,245 ✭✭✭✭Fanny Cradock


    I wasn't aware that anyone seriously mentioned hate. Really, should I just lock this thread now?


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    #22
    krudler
    Registered Users Posts: 34,788 ✭✭✭✭krudler


    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    I wasn't aware that anyone seriously mentioned hate. Really, should I just lock this thread now?

    well I didnt mean specifically in this thread, but someone has already said gay people are evil. That doesnt exactly suggest a loving nature towards them.Small minded and ignorant moreso than hatred, buts its all swings and roundabouts


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    #23
    Max Power1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,272 ✭✭✭✭Max Power1


    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    I wasn't aware that anyone seriously mentioned hate. Really, should I just lock this thread now?
    krudler wrote: »
    well I didnt mean specifically in this thread, but someone has already said gay people are evil. That doesnt exactly suggest a loving nature towards them.Small minded and ignorant moreso than hatred, buts its all swings and roundabouts
    does anyone seriously think that homosexual thoughts/acts are in His will for the world? I dont think so.....


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    #24
    St3ph3n
    Registered Users Posts: 22 ✭St3ph3n


    Well as a homosexual male I can say confidently that orientation is not a choice.I don't understand how some people can think it is.Given a choice, why on earth would anyone want to be homosexual, given the stigma that society has attached to it.I was born this way and there's no way I can change it.Which makes me wonder how can something, that I have no control over ( other than live a lonely life in abstinence) be wrong in a moral sense.


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    #25
    Ghost Buster
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,172 ✭✭✭Ghost Buster


    Maxpower
    You dont think. Full stop,


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    #26
    Linus67
    Closed Accounts Posts: 55 ✭✭Linus67


    Yes, of course. Homosexuality is a heinous crime against God. It should be a criminal offence. Homosexuals need to be cured from their diabolical predicament.


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    #27
    Slav
    Registered Users Posts: 789 ✭✭✭Slav


    Yahoo! The trolls have finally arrived!

    IBTL :)


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    #28
    Linus67
    Closed Accounts Posts: 55 ✭✭Linus67


    Slav wrote: »
    Yahoo! The trolls have finally arrived!

    IBTL :)

    Hey Slav. Are you legally allowed to be a resident in Ireland or do I have to call Immigration?


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    #29
    niallp
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5 ✭niallp


    Fags hate Christians.
    All square, move on.


This discussion has been closed.
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