Question about Armed escourt.

Profiler

Hi,

Apologies if this issue has been addressed here before (I had a quick look over the 4 pages and couldn’t find it)

This morning while waiting for my bus in Drumcondra I saw a cash in transit convoy and it got me thinking.

The first vehicle was what looked like a standard Mondeo Garda squad car, behind that was an Army Nissan Patrol with one driver and at least 2 soldiers (with guns clearly visible), Then there was the Brinks Allied van and behind that was another Army Nissan Patrol – again same number of occupants and weaponry on show.

My question is, say for example some criminal gang attacked the convoy. Are there any circumstances where the Soldiers can open fire (with live rounds of course?)

I mean if the convoy (Gardai & Army) are fired upon then surely the soldiers have the right to defend themselves, the Gardai and of course the cash?

Not being familiar with the law in these circumstances it occurred to me it would be exposing the Soldiers and the Army to one hell of a risk if they were liable for any injury sustained by one of the thief’s.

Now I'm guessing here that as both AGS and the Army come under the umbrella of the Minister for Defense it would stand to reason that the same protection would be there the soldiers for against a criminal prosecution as there would be for AGS.


However the Soldiers and AGS undergo completely different training....



Anyway, does anyone know?

Hooch

The army assist as aid to the civil power. If fire apon they will return fire. They will also assist AGS in protection of the cash in transit.

Members of AGS are unarmed....members of defence forces are armed with live rounds.


mod warning: please note do not give out anymore details in regards cash in transit, and replies that give out sensitive information of any kind will receive a temp ban.....this is a serious issue

Profiler wrote: »

Hi,

Apologies if this issue has been addressed here before (I had a quick look over the 4 pages and couldn’t find it)

This morning while waiting for my bus in Drumcondra I saw a cash in transit convoy and it got me thinking.

The first vehicle was what looked like a standard Mondeo Garda squad car, behind that was an Army Nissan Patrol with one driver and at least 2 soldiers (with guns clearly visible), Then there was the Brinks Allied van and behind that was another Army Nissan Patrol – again same number of occupants and weaponry on show.

My question is, say for example some criminal gang attacked the convoy. Are there any circumstances where the Soldiers can open fire (with live rounds of course?)

I mean if the convoy (Gardai & Army) are fired upon then surely the soldiers have the right to defend themselves, the Gardai and of course the cash?

Not being familiar with the law in these circumstances it occurred to me it would be exposing the Soldiers and the Army to one hell of a risk if they were liable for any injury sustained by one of the thief’s.

Now I'm guessing here that as both AGS and the Army come under the umbrella of the Minister for Defense it would stand to reason that the same protection would be there the soldiers for against a criminal prosecution as there would be for AGS.


However the Soldiers and AGS undergo completely different training....



Anyway, does anyone know?

maglite

You might ask on the military forum for the Irish army rules of engagement. Though they may not be allow to post it. Those rules will outline the only conditions in which they can shoot their gun.

Locust

Profiler wrote: »

Hi,

Apologies if this issue has been addressed here before (I had a quick look over the 4 pages and couldn’t find it)

This morning while waiting for my bus in Drumcondra I saw a cash in transit convoy and it got me thinking.

The first vehicle was what looked like a standard Mondeo Garda squad car, behind that was an Army Nissan Patrol with one driver and at least 2 soldiers (with guns clearly visible), Then there was the Brinks Allied van and behind that was another Army Nissan Patrol – again same number of occupants and weaponry on show.
My question is, say for example some criminal gang attacked the convoy. Are there any circumstances where the Soldiers can open fire (with live rounds of course?)
I mean if the convoy (Gardai & Army) are fired upon then surely the soldiers have the right to defend themselves, the Gardai and of course the cash?
Not being familiar with the law in these circumstances it occurred to me it would be exposing the Soldiers and the Army to one hell of a risk if they were liable for any injury sustained by one of the thief’s.
Now I'm guessing here that as both AGS and the Army come under the umbrella of the Minister for Defense it would stand to reason that the same protection would be there the soldiers for against a criminal prosecution as there would be for AGS.
However the Soldiers and AGS undergo completely different training....
Anyway, does anyone know?

As NGA said the army will fire if fired upon. They joined the defence forces/army right? They signed up for these kind of things yeah to defend our countries interests?
They pick up rifles and take up duty knowing what may be involved in or have to do - and of course they can engage threats according to thier rules of engagement, guns & training are for the real deal, not just for show.

Between the Dept of Justice & Defence
The bottom line is that if they are truely acting in the protection of life & property they generally cannot be faulted as they are of course the good guys doing the right thing.

time lord

The circumstances are not secret when a soldier may and may not fire. There are five times when he or she may "open up". I suggest you ask for them on the military forum as I'm way too rusty on them. The B.A. (British army) used have them on a yellow card that was handed out.

I remember "cashes" cash in transit convoys being routinely followed for years by known subversives in the eighties. The fact that none were ever attacked must account for somthing. One family story going back decades was of a cash being followed by an unknown and the unknown being followed by the state. My late fathers comment on the situation was only this. "Nobody could get bloody parking in town that day":)

Poccington

The document which covers our ROE is restricted.

I hope nobody will decide to post it up/discuss the contents of said document.

Terrontress

You must be fairly cheesed off to join the army and then spend large parts of your working life escorting Securicor vans.

I suppose that might be part of the reason why there are a large amount of Irish folk joining the British Army.

Poccington

Terrontress wrote: »

You must be fairly cheesed off to join the army and then spend large parts of your working life escorting Securicor vans.

I suppose that might be part of the reason why there are a large amount of Irish folk joining the British Army.

Large parts of your working life?

I haven't done a single CIT this year.

AnalFistyCuffs

Terrontress wrote: »

You must be fairly cheesed off to join the army and then spend large parts of your working life escorting Securicor vans,....I suppose that might be part of the reason why there are a large amount of Irish folk joining the British Army.

Joining HM Forces will get you real fighting experience than stuck in Irish Pee Diddy Forces 'fighting' flood waters in Cork with sand bags !!

Then there is the up side to being Irish PDF,......you get to finish at 1630hrs Mon - Fri ( not including bank holidays ) !! Yeah that's how wars are fought :cool:

punchdrunk

AnalFistyCuffs wrote: »

Joining HM Forces will get you real fighting experience than stuck in Irish Pee Diddy Forces 'fighting' flood waters in Cork with sand bags !!

Then there is the up side to being Irish PDF,......you get to finish at 1630hrs Mon - Fri ( not including bank holidays ) !! Yeah that's how wars are fought :cool:

€50 says you'd be one of the first on here giving out if we got posted to Afghanistan!

our lads do great work peace keeping,largely in country's that the old colonial Empire ****ed up in the first place

AnalFistyCuffs

punchdrunk wrote: »

€50 says you'd be one of the first on here giving out if we got posted to Afghanistan!

Na,....It would be a welcome relief. Highly unlikely Irish PDF would have green on green incidents unlike the US.

Oh,...I'll see you your €50,...raise you €100 if it is a N.I. posting!

heffomike54

Garda/ Army working together is a lot more common than people think and extends beyond cash in transit escorts (I wont go into any further details on this point). As far as I know, If in the event of an armed attack on a cash in transit escort, the army would respond equal to the level of the attack they are facing, and in doing this would be acting in support of AGS.

CharlieCroker

AnalFistyCuffs wrote: »

Joining HM Forces will get you real fighting experience than stuck in Irish Pee Diddy Forces 'fighting' flood waters in Cork with sand bags !!

OT but,
Personally, i'd rather see the army working within the country helping citizens in times of natural disasters (flooding, earthquake, etc) instead of in a desert a few thousand miles away fighting an unneccessary war.

Victor

Profiler wrote: »

My question is, say for example some criminal gang attacked the convoy. Are there any circumstances where the Soldiers can open fire (with live rounds of course?)

Yes. Anybody is allowed use reasonable force to protect their own (and that of others) life and property.

Not being familiar with the law in these circumstances it occurred to me it would be exposing the Soldiers and the Army to one hell of a risk if they were liable for any injury sustained by one of the thief’s.

If you try to engage in armed robbery, expect a response. If you try to engage in armed robbery against an armed convoy, expect a severe response.

Do you mean like the would also be held liable if the handcuffs chaffed an arrestee's wrists? The defence that would be used in such a case is reasonable / lawful excuse - it is regularly necessary to restrain an arrestee.

Likewise, negligence doesn't occur and they couldn't be sued for negligence as it would be hte armed robber putting themselves in danger, not the other way around.

Hagar

Poccington wrote: »

The document which covers our ROE is restricted.

I hope nobody will decide to post it up/discuss the contents of said document.

Point taken, but surely the citizens of this State have a right to know under what circumstances armed soldiers and Gardaí have the right to open fire in public places. For their own peace of mind if nothing else. Let's be honest the soldiers know, the Gardaí know, the criminals know, the only people who don't know are the ordinary people.

MagicSean

69 wrote: »

Point taken, but surely the citizens of this State have a right to know under what circumstances armed soldiers and Gardaí have the right to open fire in public places. For their own peace of mind if nothing else. Let's be honest the soldiers know, the Gardaí know, the criminals know, the only people who don't know are the ordinary people.

What benefit would it bring to them?

Hagar

Why does access to information have to be doled out as if it were privilege rather than a right?

MagicSean

69 wrote: »

Why does access to information have to be doled out as if it were privilege rather than a right?

Because information can be dangerous in the wrong hands. Who said it was a right anyway?

Hagar

I don't want to get into tit for tat but who said access to information shouldn't be a right? It has already been established in law that the State is not distinct from it's citizens.

As I pointed out the relevent information is already in the criminal hands.

CB19Kevo

Sensitive information should not be published on a open forum.
The questions that have been asked have been responded to in as much detail as should be needed.

Hagar

Says who exactly?


I'm not asking on my own behalf, I have served in the DF and know the ROE. It's just interesting to query the need for secrecy.

donvito99

69 wrote: »

Says who exactly?


I'm not asking on my own behalf, I have served in the DF and know the ROE. It's just interesting to query the need for secrecy.

If criminals browse this forum, and if sensitive information were to be displayed on this forum, then Boards.ie would be liable. Simples really.

Anyway, I actually saw an armed convoy today. Marked Mondeo, Army Patrol, Cash van, and a final Patrol.

MagicSean

69 wrote: »

Says who exactly?


I'm not asking on my own behalf, I have served in the DF and know the ROE. It's just interesting to query the need for secrecy.

I would think that you would understand the dangers inherent in the enemy knowing your procedures.

Hagar

And the consequences clearly laid out in black and white...

Whitewater-AGS

69 wrote: »

And the consequences clearly laid out in black and white...

The consequences are all too well know but the black and white roe's aint and shouldn't be in a public place! Letter gougers know what buttons need pressing in order for the pdf to open fire have no business on this forum or any other forum for that matter.

Sure while we are at it why dont we just tell everyone how G2 and their Garda counterparts operate:rolleyes:

Shield

Whitewater-AGS wrote: »

Letting gougers know what buttons need pressing in order for the pdf to open fire have no business on this forum or any other forum for that matter.

And on that note...

Thread closed.