God's Justice

Slav

This question is inspired by "Whats the purpose behind Jesus being crucified?" thread. In short, a number of Christian posters explained the Cross of Christ in term of penal substitution doctrine which implies that God is just and is bound to His Justice so sin cannot be simply forgiven but has also to be punished. In replies atheists made a point that substitutional punishment only existed in ancient justice systems and therefore is not something that is necessarily applicable to justice in general, i.e. it's not absolute but relative (Wicknight and others will correct me if I misinterpreted them). Personally, I think it's not a bad point and I think it could be an interesting discussion if we extend it to the following questions:

What is God's justice? Is there such a thing as Absolute Justice? Is God bound to any justice and why?

Suppose we live in an utopian society where there are no criminals of any kind and therefore no crime. Moreover, all people are honest and fair so there are no commercial disputes either. Even more, people love each other. There are no prisons, no courts; Dermot Ahern is idling, Garda Síochána is only regulating traffic and searching for lost doggies. Overall, in this society justice does not exist from our perspective; it's something foreign to us, something that does not belong or applicable to us. Saying that, punishment still does take place in our society. Loving parents can still punish children by sending them to a quiet chair, and speaking about doggies, their loving owners can use even something more serious then a quiet chair in a course of puppy toilet training because that would be the language the dogs understand. So from a child or a puppy perspective, the justice is real and they are subject to it. But is it real for our adults?


(I would appreciate if we keep it on the basic theistic grounds, i.e. saying something in the lines of "there is no such thing as god's justice because there is no god" probably would not be a valuable contribution; everything else is pretty much relevant I guess)

gbee

Fundamental problem, GOD is a concept and no rational being should believe in one.

As for the prophet who would be Christ, I've been poisoned by the RC upbringing ~ short story, The Roman Empire was split and being defeated militarilly, also one of the last Emperors gave his name to paedophilia ~ running away from this and realising that the Roman Senate could control masses of people without a standing army, they created the Roman Catholic Church.

They since tried to pawn off that one as a 'conversion' and adopted the most popular of the messiahs, the one they allegedly crucified as the real Son Of God and they have survived to this day .. and not changed in their ways much ... riches, robes, children ....

tim_holsters

Slav wrote: »

This question is inspired by "Whats the purpose behind Jesus being crucified?" thread. In short, a number of Christian posters explained the Cross of Christ in term of penal substitution doctrine which implies that God is just and is bound to His Justice so sin cannot be simply forgiven but has also to be punished. In replies atheists made a point that substitutional punishment only existed in ancient justice systems and therefore is not something that is necessarily applicable to justice in general, i.e. it's not absolute but relative (Wicknight and others will correct me if I misinterpreted them). Personally, I think it's not a bad point and I think it could be an interesting discussion if we extend it to the following questions:

What is God's justice? Is there such a thing as Absolute Justice? Is God bound to any justice and why?

Suppose we live in an utopian society where there are no criminals of any kind and therefore no crime. Moreover, all people are honest and fair so there are no commercial disputes either. Even more, people love each other. There are no prisons, no courts; Dermot Ahern is idling, Garda Síochána is only regulating traffic and searching for lost doggies. Overall, in this society justice does not exist from our perspective; it's something foreign to us, something that does not belong or applicable to us. Saying that, punishment still does take place in our society. Loving parents can still punish children by sending them to a quiet chair, and speaking about doggies, their loving owners can use even something more serious then a quiet chair in a course of puppy toilet training because that would be the language the dogs understand. So from a child or a puppy perspective, the justice is real and they are subject to it. But is it real for our adults?


(I would appreciate if we keep it on the basic theistic grounds, i.e. saying something in the lines of "there is no such thing as god's justice because there is no god" probably would not be a valuable contribution; everything else is pretty much relevant I guess)

Oh Gawd.

Fanny Cradock

Thanks for that. Now the both of you should read the charter and stick by it or don't bother posting here again.

tim_holsters

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Thanks for that. Now the both of you should read the charter and stick by it or don't bother posting here again.

I was unaware I was posting in the Christianity forum, if I had of known I wouldn't of been so flippant and also I wouldn't of posted anything at all Christianity not being my thing. Apologies if my remark has somehow offended.

gbee

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Thanks for that. Now the both of you should read the charter and stick by it or don't bother posting here again.

Well, Christ is turning in his grave with this totally unChristian comment. Or should that be look out for the lightening .... I've clear blue skies out my window.

Fanny Cradock

gbee wrote: »

Well, Christ is turning in his grave with this totally unChristian comment. Or should that be look out for the lightening .... I've clear blue skies out my window.

How odd.

Anyway, you have been served your warning and I suggest that you pay attention to it. That way we are all free to move forward.

krudler

gbee wrote: »

Well, Christ is turning in his grave with this totally unChristian comment. Or should that be look out for the lightening .... I've clear blue skies out my window.

Fail

Zombrex

krudler wrote: »

Fail

LOL .. that is one for fail blog

gbee

Wicknight wrote: »

LOL .. that is one for fail blog

Well, how fail, mod called a warning, yet both further responses do not respond to the OP.

Fail, I think not.

Fanny Cradock

Can we all get back on track, please? Off topic posts will now be deleted and repeat offenders will crumble under an assault of my mighty pain bombs.

JimiTime

Slav wrote: »

This question is inspired by "Whats the purpose behind Jesus being crucified?" thread. In short, a number of Christian posters explained the Cross of Christ in term of penal substitution doctrine which implies that God is just and is bound to His Justice so sin cannot be simply forgiven but has also to be punished. In replies atheists made a point that substitutional punishment only existed in ancient justice systems and therefore is not something that is necessarily applicable to justice in general, i.e. it's not absolute but relative (Wicknight and others will correct me if I misinterpreted them). Personally, I think it's not a bad point and I think it could be an interesting discussion if we extend it to the following questions:

What is God's justice? Is there such a thing as Absolute Justice? Is God bound to any justice and why?

Suppose we live in an utopian society where there are no criminals of any kind and therefore no crime. Moreover, all people are honest and fair so there are no commercial disputes either. Even more, people love each other. There are no prisons, no courts; Dermot Ahern is idling, Garda Síochána is only regulating traffic and searching for lost doggies. Overall, in this society justice does not exist from our perspective; it's something foreign to us, something that does not belong or applicable to us. Saying that, punishment still does take place in our society. Loving parents can still punish children by sending them to a quiet chair, and speaking about doggies, their loving owners can use even something more serious then a quiet chair in a course of puppy toilet training because that would be the language the dogs understand. So from a child or a puppy perspective, the justice is real and they are subject to it. But is it real for our adults?


(I would appreciate if we keep it on the basic theistic grounds, i.e. saying something in the lines of "there is no such thing as god's justice because there is no god" probably would not be a valuable contribution; everything else is pretty much relevant I guess)

My 2 cent:

Justice is about balance. I would not see your child or puppy analogies as anything to do with justice. That is teaching. If a child misbehaves for example, by using vulger language etc. Justice is not invoked, but metephorically speaking, 'a rod of learning' is required.

I'll give you an example. If a man murders my brother, justice demands his life be taken. That is the balance. It is Godly appointed. Eye for eye, tooth for tooth.

Christ did not move the posts of justice. Justice still demands an eye for an eye. However, Christs sacrifice, and example requested of us to forgive our brother. He did not say that this was justice, but rather that as God has payed our debt, so in turn show such mercy to others realising our own debt has been forgiven. The illustration of the slave who is forgiven of his debt by his master, but proceeds to prosecute those in debt to him is a good example.

Below is from Pauls letter to the Romans. You can see where I'm coming from. I.E. To forgive does not equate to justice, but rather equates to our recognition of the mercy that has been given to us. The 'justice' part, i.e. the balance, was 'payed' by Christ. If the person who murdered my brother becomes saved by Christs gift, I should rejoice at the mercy that both he and I have recieved. If he does NOT accept Christs redeeming gift, then I allow God to carry out what is Just.

Romans 12
17Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. 18If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. 19Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay,"[d]says the Lord. 20On the contrary:
"If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.
In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head."[e] 21Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Slav

Christos Anesti!

Thanks for that Jimi! It all makes perfect sense if we look at it from our human perspective and in the light of the Bible (or at least at a particular way of reading and understanding it).

What I was trying to look at is the philosophical aspects of justice (not necessarily Christian but theistic in general). Is it absolute or relative, where it originates from and how it relates to Theos.

As I started thinking about it using an utopian society as the Theos/Trinity existence analogy I failed to see how it can be absolute. While certain beings can still experience it as justice it's not seen as such by those who applies it in the first place. As you correctly pointed out it's only teaching. Propagated to Theos it looks like what we might see as justice is only pedagogics if we look at a bigger picture.

Now my analogy can be flawed or my logic is flawed or something else is wrong but that's what I'm trying to understand.