garda involved in liffey rescue

ivabiggon

http://breakingnews.ie/ireland/garda-in-hospital-after-liffey-rescue-attempt-452257.html

heard this earlier on the radio and wish the garda a quick recovery.
but the reason why i'm posting this here is to get some feed back on this whole area in respect to members getting into the liffey to rescue people when the DFB are only seconds away with all the right equipment.
As an SRT (swift rescue tech) in the dublin fire brigade and having trained and carried out numerous rescues in the river i know the dangers a person can get into trouble if: #1 they're not properly trained and #2 lack of equipment.

do the gardaí get any guideline or water awareness training in this area.
looking from my point of view having the pressure of saving a member of joe public is one thing but the added pressure of maybe having to attempt a rescue of a garda is whole different ball game.

i understand the gardai do have some training in templemore and most members are very competent swimmers but rescue in a river like the liffey when the rescuer has to contend with over and under current, tidal pressure, strainers, bridge buttress, cold, and aggresive or fearful clients, crowd pier pressure, and alot more.
should the gardaí be incouraged to wait for the correct rescue personell

any feed back welcomed

King Ludvig

Heard this on the radio this morning...fair play to the Garda, brave man/woman. Hopefully they'll both recover quickly.

You have to take each situation on it's own merit. Tara St and Phibsboro may be close by but in the time it takes to get a call in and for you to mobilise the lad may drown. Not a dig at FB's there, but a decision that has to be made quickly.

Same way you guys do. Gardaí are trained depending on their level of swimming experience. Obviously this lad must have had some experience of life saving if he decided to go in.

Zuppy

foreign wrote: »

You have to take each situation on it's own merit.

As far as I know the AGS do not carry any water rescue equipment as standard. (I am not AGS but have never seen their standard vehicles carry any) As we were all not present as the judgment call was made, the decision to enter the water is usually the last option and without equipment hazardous. I hope the Garda has a speedy recovery and no lasting ill effects.
But if there are DFB stations close by, why not call them?

ivabiggon

ye but point i'm making the garda is in hospital after both he/she and the client had to be rescued, it's seem bad economics to me.
it could have been worse both could have drowned,it was a close call so being a competent swimmer doesn't mean much if one can't read the dangers or if your over come by cold because lack of wholly bear and a dry suit and neoprene hat and gloves, scene safety is the priority here, not to mention contamination from the river and the injections you need to fight these infections.
would members who contribute here recommend a member of the fire brigade take on a villain?

MagicSean

ivabiggon wrote: »

ye but point i'm making the garda is in hospital after both he/she and the client had to be rescued, it's seem bad economics to me.
it could have been worse both could have drowned,it was a close call so being a competent swimmer doesn't mean much if one can't read the dangers or if your over come by cold because lack of wholly bear and a dry suit and neoprene hat and gloves, scene safety is the priority here, not to mention contamination from the river and the injections you need to fight these infections.
would members who contribute here recommend a member of the fire brigade take on a villain?

Watchin a vilain get away is not the same as watchin a person drown.

DubMedic

RTE reports that the man has died.

A man rescued from the River Liffey in Dublin by a garda yesterday has died.

The man, who was in his 30s, went into the water just before 9am at Victoria Quay.

The garda, who is stationed at Kevin St Garda Station, jumped in to try to save him after responding to the call.

Both men were taken to St James's Hospital in Dublin, but it's now emerged the rescued man passed away yesterday afternoon.

The garda is still being treated in hosptial, but his injuries are not thought to be life threatening.

Gardaí say they are investigating the all the circumstances surrounding the man's death.

Source

ivabiggon

thats bad news, but maybe water awareness is the way to go, and maybe the gardaí might consider issuing floating lines in the patrol cars, and be more aware of were the life buoys/rings are.
the lifey and other rivers similar to it like the R.Lee and i'm sure many more around this island can seem very calm and forgiving but underneath they aren't.
that is why the DFB introduced SRT training and equipment because of the bad experiences that was encounter over decades of river rescues.

If memory serves me correct a request went in from the DFB to AGS to try and encourage members not to risk their lives and wait till proper help arrives

starviewadams

Really must be a sickener for the Gard who tried to save him to hear the guy had passed away.

Remember a few years ago,a guy who I play football with jumped in to the liffey save some lad who was struggling to stay afloat,he gave his wallet/phone etc to someone in the large group of onlookers on the quay and when he eventually got back out after they both had been rescued by FB the guy with his phone and wallet had legged it!

MagicSean

ivabiggon wrote: »

thats bad news, but maybe water awareness is the way to go, and maybe the gardaí might consider issuing floating lines in the patrol cars, and be more aware of were the life buoys/rings are.
the lifey and other rivers similar to it like the R.Lee and i'm sure many more around this island can seem very calm and forgiving but underneath they aren't.
that is why the DFB introduced SRT training and equipment because of the bad experiences that was encounter over decades of river rescues.

If memory serves me correct a request went in from the DFB to AGS to try and encourage members not to risk their lives and wait till proper help arrives

I've seen quite a few bodies come out of the river Boyne so I know how bad the water can be. I dont think I could stand by and watch a man drown while I wait for the fire brigade though. The fact that the man from the Liffey died anyway surely shows how important time is in these matters. Like it or not Gardaí are generally first on scene for these kinds of incidents because for some reason people always call us first. God only knows why. I can't tell you how many times i've had a fire reported to me on the phone and when I ask if the person called the fire brigade they say no.

Let me ask you this. If you were goin for a walk with your girlfriend and you saw someone drowning in the River Lee would you try save them or would you wait for your colleagues with the equipment?

ivabiggon

oh i'd try to save them, but i wouldn't put my life at risk for them in that circumstance, because i know the certain dangers and hi risks involved, but thats because i'm trained and experienced but ordinary joe soap or joe gaurd may not see them and be disillusioned by the conditions presented in front of them, so back to my previous post, education and awareness is the key, and maybe a throw bag!
i hope the management in AGS don't make the mistake of losing one of their own before they get their finger out

MagicSean

ivabiggon wrote: »

oh i'd try to save them, but i wouldn't put my life at risk for them in that circumstance, because i know the certain dangers and hi risks involved, but thats because i'm trained and experienced but ordinary joe soap or joe gaurd may not see them and be disillusioned by the conditions presented in front of them, so back to my previous post, education and awareness is the key, and maybe a throw bag!
i hope the management in AGS don't make the mistake of losing one of their own before they get their finger out

Joe Guard? You do know that Gardaí have lives outside the job. There are plenty of trained lifeguards going through the ranks. There is also plenty of training in how to react in these situations in the college. For all you know this Garda could have been a former DFB member and professional swimmer. It's not like Gardaí are throwing themselves into rivers left right and center. This Garda obviously felt that time was a factor in the situation and he felt competent enough to try and help and as it turned out he was right. He gave the victim a better chance of survival by going in.

Hooch

k_mac wrote: »

Joe Guard? You do know that Gardaí have lives outside the job. There are plenty of trained lifeguards going through the ranks. There is also plenty of training in how to react in these situations in the college. For all you know this Garda could have been a former DFB member and professional swimmer. It's not like Gardaí are throwing themselves into rivers left right and center. This Garda obviously felt that time was a factor in the situation and he felt competent enough to try and help and as it turned out he was right. He gave the victim a better chance of survival by going in.

+1
Great post,
On the phone now but will read the rest and give my two cents later!

hierro

Not a hope of me getting wet. I can't swim.... wish i could but after numerous attempts to learn, it was all in vain...

As with numerous calls recieved at Garda Stations on a daily basis, are the Gardai the wrong organisation to call on in this event. The answer has to be in the negative and this is because the DFB are trained to perform an extraction.

A properly trained and utilised emergancy dispatch service which has the skill to determine the services required would resolve this issue.

Of course the above is not taking into regard the fact that the Gardaí may be in the immediate vacinity of the incident and thus are the first responders and act accordingly.

Of course, much praise to the members involved.

ivabiggon

k_mac wrote: »

Joe Guard? You do know that Gardaí have lives outside the job. There are plenty of trained lifeguards going through the ranks. There is also plenty of training in how to react in these situations in the college. For all you know this Garda could have been a former DFB member and professional swimmer. It's not like Gardaí are throwing themselves into rivers left right and center. This Garda obviously felt that time was a factor in the situation and he felt competent enough to try and help and as it turned out he was right. He gave the victim a better chance of survival by going in.

sorry he wasn't that competent if he ended up been fished himself and in hospital, but i do agree there are some very good swimmers in the gaurds but swimming isn't all of it!
there are some very fast runners in the fire brigade but ye won't see them chase someone because they wouldn't know what to do with them when they catch them

MagicSean

ivabiggon wrote: »

sorry he wasn't that competent if he ended up been fished himself and in hospital, but i do agree there are some very good swimmers in the gaurds but swimming isn't all of it!
there are some very fast runners in the fire brigade but ye won't see them chase someone because they wouldn't know what to do with them when they catch them

So if a fireman ends up in the hospital he doesn't know what he is doing? I'm sure even you have got into danger during your career despite being so well trained. I think you're being very elitist. Firemen don't have a monopoly on saving lives. Ideally a garda would wait for help if it was available. But in this case the garda didn't think it would be quick enough. As it turns out he was right.

timmywex

The fire brigade could still be 3/4/5 minutes away which in water rescue is a life!

I play football witha gard who has pulled 2 people from water, jumped in etc etc, he says its instinct, spur of the moment.

To stand on a quay and watch would be much harder, and id personally feel guilty for a long time to come.

As for waiting for better trained backup, well in dublin its lucky its available, but as people know calls often come in not as they are, for all we know the garda could have just been passing and happened upon it.

Its a hard area, and one that is impossible to regulate me thinks!

Ian Beale

ivabiggon wrote: »

sorry he wasn't that competent if he ended up been fished himself and in hospital, but i do agree there are some very good swimmers in the gaurds but swimming isn't all of it!
there are some very fast runners in the fire brigade but ye won't see them chase someone because they wouldn't know what to do with them when they catch them

Big difference between trying to save someones life and chasing after someone, the garda did his best to try and save the person and calling him incompetent because he needed help himself is unfair, with the weather conditions, temp of the water and trying to hold up a person that could be in a panic or unconscious even the best of swimmers would find it hard, and as for the poor man that passed away may he rest in peace.

artielange

Just wondering if a Garda ever ran into a burning building to save someone? Say's a lot about the people who do these thing's properly trained or not.

Irish_polizei

artielange wrote: »

Just wondering if a Garda ever ran into a burning building to save someone? Say's a lot about the people who do these thing's properly trained or not.

That was an immature statement if i do say so, how do you know the garda in question was not a member of the lifegaurd before he joined the garda siochana, how do you know anything about anybodys training? You are just assuming he has not recieved any garda training in relation to water safety..

MagicSean

artielange wrote: »

Just wondering if a Garda ever ran into a burning building to save someone? Say's a lot about the people who do these thing's properly trained or not.

I have. Shed was on fire and the owner wouldn't come out. All his work (carpenter) was inside and he was trying to put the fire out with buckets of water. I had to go in and push him out the back door and lock it from the inside then go out the front. Don't get me wrong. It wasn't a scene from backdraft or anything, it was just the roof on fire. Fortunately the dfb got there shortly after and his stuff was saved. Because of the fact that Gardaí are on mobile patrol (and for some reason people seem to think they should report fires to the Gardaí first) it is very likely that they will be first on scene. If there is someone in danger it would be very hard not to do anything if you think you can help.

ivabiggon

Ian Beale wrote: »

Big difference between trying to save someones life and chasing after someone, the garda did his best to try and save the person and calling him incompetent because he needed help himself is unfair, with the weather conditions, temp of the water and trying to hold up a person that could be in a panic or unconscious even the best of swimmers would find it hard, and as for the poor man that passed away may he rest in peace.

your right and i'm wrong and sorry, i shouldn't have called him incompetent.
the over whelming elements got the better of both of them, but I've never criticized any one for any rescue, but that is why the fire services of this country put into place necessary safe guards to limit injury and be more successful in rescues, but to reiterate.. i think AGS management should include in their basic training, a water awareness program to educate gardaí and maybe members will make an educated attempt at a rescue knowing the full risks and hazards recognitions.
Alot of unsuccessful rescue that have caused the death of both rescuer and client have been because of pier pressure at the time.
also i think the county councils have a responsibility her to provide better & more rescue equipment along rivers

MagicSean

ivabiggon wrote: »

your right and i'm wrong and sorry, i shouldn't have called him incompetent.
the over whelming elements got the better of both of them, but I've never criticized any one for any rescue, but that is why the fire services of this country put into place necessary safe guards to limit injury and be more successful in rescues, but to reiterate.. i think AGS management should include in their basic training, a water awareness program to educate gardaí and maybe members will make an educated attempt at a rescue knowing the full risks and hazards recognitions.
Alot of unsuccessful rescue that have caused the death of both rescuer and client have been because of pier pressure at the time.
also i think the county councils have a responsibility her to provide better & more rescue equipment along rivers

There is already basic training and water awareness in the first phase of training at the garda college.

punchdrunk

if the tables were turned,how many would be posting here right now,
saying a man had died because a Guard had stood by and done nothing to help?

the hypocrisy around here is astounding sometimes

fair play to the Guard,I hope he recovers soon.

RIP to the casualty

Leo Demidov

Some great arguments from both sides on this one. My own opinion being that if a Garda is adequately trained, equipped and is willing to do so of their own free will, such a rescue may be appropriate. Currently there are too many variables.

Regarding peer pressure, I'd hate for any Garda to have to enter the water because its the "right thing to do" or whatever. As Gardai are generally first on scene, is it the case that they may choose to execute a rescue because its what the public expect from e/s personnel.

I'd hate to be in any uniform at an incident where you are not properly equipped, people always expect a quick resolution and all eyes are going to be on you. Your employer is entitled to your sweat and tears but not your blood!

johnnyrotten

Ok My 2 cents:
Firstly I hope the Garda makes a quick recovery and fair play to him.
The OP makes some valid points.
Rivers are extremely dangerous and difficult to effect a rescue from. As the OP says there are many problems that can occur. For example the casualty or rescuer can get snagged on debris. etc.
I have attended a river rescue in the Liffey and rescued a Garda who was clinging to a bridge butress with hypothermia. Thankfully both he and the original casualty were ok.
When a person ends up in the Liffey and a large crowd gathers, why should the Garda go in? Its a serious question, unfortunately there is moral pressure there because the garda is seen as authority . The best swimmers can get into difficulty very quickly in a river like the liffey.
A fully trained and equipped ( Personal floatation device, drysuit, floating lines, helmet, neoprene hat and gloves ) Swiftwater Rescue Technician (SRT) is able to enter the water safely and approach the casualty correctly, defend against an aggressive casualtyand along with downstream backup bring the situation to a safe conclusion.

I am not knocking the bravery of members of AGS but theres no point in being a dead hero.

Imagine a Guard who is a good swimmer goes in after a casualty. He/she swims to the casualty and the natural reaction is to grab the rescuer and pull him /her under or to strike out. The guard may take on water and along with hypothermia and tidal drift may get into serious difficulty very quickly.
Bear in mind the DFB also has a rescue boat docked near IFSC. The last option should always be to enter the water
Thanks for reading and keep safe

ivabiggon

ivabiggon wrote: »

pier pressure

http://instantrimshot.com/

---

Fair play to the Garda, I say. Hope he/she receives a bonus or some form of recognition for it.

I understand where ivabiggon is coming from (lack of training, etc.) but if the person died anyway, then there's a fair chance the Garda knew it was going to be a life or death matter. If he died anyway, then the poor guy was obviously in the river long enough before the Garda made the call and went in after him.

I'd like to think that if it was myself in the Garda's shoes, I'd also jump in after him.

That said... I'd also like to think that if it were me in the river, the Garda wouldn't watch me drown from a distance.

By the time the DFB arrived on the scene, got equipped with the right gear and prepared to jump in, it'd probably have been too late anyway, unfortunately.

You have to try walking in their shoes before you criticise in my opinion. I don't think AGS should try to dissuade their members from this kind of thing.

TylerIE

The Paras on the board would all have been trained to strictly not do water rescue as they will be needed to look after the patient.

Unfortunately the Gardai do not have this role so I can understand their wanting to jump in out of frustration...

However I know every Frontline Emergency Service Employee in the country would be at least somewhat upset if a member of AGS/Fire / HSE /CG / RNLI died in the course of duty.... We all know stories of the rescuer becoming the victim and, purely for the safety of AGS members, I would hope that management would develop strict protocols for their members protection. Its not appropriate for members to be expected to jump in at all times just because they are a good swimmer or were a lifeguard ten years ago.

Perhaps members of AGS who are RLSS or IWS lifeguards should have ongoing training through AGS? And maybe relevant cars should have throw ropes / rescue rings/ lifejackets? Not hugely expensive but just a thought? I cant see it happening but???

And of course fair play to the Guard. Regardless of his abilities at swimming he went away above and beyond the call of duty in the service of another.