Looking for a career in computers

C14N

Hi there. I'm not sure if I'm in the right place with this but I'm going to have a whack at it anyway.

First off, I'm only in 5th year so this isn't as urgent as if I was doing my LC in 2 months. I just want to get information on careers and stuff early because I find it interesting and I don't want to be totally confused when I get my CAO application form next year. I'm a big computer enthusiast and I'd really like to get a job in computers and I can definitely get the points in my LC to do any course relating to computers in any way.

I'm not entirely sure what kind of area I want to get into but something I really like the sound of is making video games. I know that might sound childish but I don't care, I love video games and I would be more than willing to travel abroad if the need arose. I'm sure that not many people here (if anyone) will have any experience in this area but I would be grateful for any help with regard to computers in general.

I'm just unsure of what course to go for in college and where. The biggest contenders are Computer Science, Computer Engineering and Electronic Engineering. I know there are some course in certain ITs that specialize in video game design but I just feel like I'd rather leave my options open a little.

I've tried to contact both video game companies and some universities but I can't find any email addresses or anything for either.

RHunce

This looks like a very good course in the University of Limerick. In the llink it has a video of the student experience of the course and a second video on the course description by a lecturer.

Hope this helps.

http://www.ul.ie/courses/LM110.html

Making It Bad

Nice rig

I have similar interests to you, unfortunately my LC is in 2 months so it is quite urgent for me. After doing a bit of research I decided computer science would be my best option but it depends what you want to do.

I don't really know much about the "computer engineering" courses but from what I understand it's a bit of an overlap between CS and Elec Eng. With this kinda of degree I'd imagine you'd be best suited working for Intel or a similar kind of company.

I also looked into the games development courses however, they didn't really seem worth it. The CS degrees seem much broader and much more practical, you can always program games in your spare time as a hobby if that's what your interested in but unfortunately jobs in the industry are quite hard to come by and when they exist are just as likely to be given to a CS grad as to a games dev grad.

I don't know how your maths is but a degree in mathematics might also be an option? If you're serious about developing games you have to think about what part of the game you want to develop. For example do you want to make the physics engine which powers the game? If you're interested in something similar to this then you need a strong grasp in mathematics because due to the nature of things differential calculations and other calculus is being carried out in order to calculate distance and how things react etc.

That's how I figured things anyway but I'm not at all an expert so hopefully someone with first hand experience can help?

ronivek

You can't really go wrong with computer science; it's the basic prerequisite for many positions in computing and information technology.

You also have the option of completing your primary degree in computer science and subsequently doing some game development related research or a taught masters such as the MSc in Interactive Entertainment Technology.

Having talked to various people over the years about game development general gist of it seems to be:

• You'll likely need to do a lot of job hunting to find something; unless you're really very good.
• You'll likely have to move even when you do find something.
• Generally speaking you'll get paid less than a developer with similar abilities in business related software development.
• Having a passion for playing computer games is absolutely not the same thing as having a passion for developing computer games; once you actually get into it.

HOWEVER; take the above with a pinch of salt as I've never had much interest in the area and therefore could have misrepresented game development as a career choice.

satchmo

Nothing childish about it! Big-budget games are among the most intricate and complex pieces of software out there. And besides, I'm a game programmer and I'm only slightly childish.

If you have a choice then I'd strongly recommend going with a straight CS degree over doing some more games-oriented course. Game programming requires a thorough knowledge of some things which I suspect (someone please correct me if I'm wrong) alot of game courses will overlook in order to teach the sexier things like graphics, audio, AI etc (or even worse, art or design which are completely different disciplines and have no place in a game programming course). While it's good to do modules in different game programming areas in final year to get a taste of what you like, it's so much more important to cover things like processor hardware, memory & cache fundamentals, basic compiler design, general algorithms, software engineering and so on.

Once you've done a real CS degree, feel free to go on and do something like the IET MSc in Trinity (good course) if you want to stay in college for a bit longer. But even then, the sooner you get out there and into the industry the better - you'll learn so much more in the same amount of time as doing a postgrad.

And like Ronivek said, you'll more than likely have to move abroad to get any good industry experience - I moved to Vancouver!

Creamy Goodness

satchmo wrote: »

the sooner you get out there and into the industry the better - you'll learn so much more in the same amount of time as doing a postgrad.

this is so true. I'm 5 months into a job after doing a CS degree in DIT and I actually think I've learned more in my first five months working than I did in say two of out the four years of the course.

The DIT CS course doesn't specialize fully in games until 4th year and in third year you can do it optionally.

stainluss

Is there one university in Ireland which has a better (or at least better reputed) CS course than others?

i.e. one with which you could find employment easier than others?

I havent heard anything like that, but it is that way with Bus., Law etc

satchmo wrote: »

And like Ronivek said, you'll more than likely have to move abroad to get any good industry experience - I moved to Vancouver!

Did you find it hard to get your position in Vancouver?

Do you know of anyone going to the US? Is there much demand for people in this line of business in the US/Canada?

I would have thought the competition fierce

Fad

stainluss wrote: »

Is there one university in Ireland which has a better (or at least better reputed) CS course than others?

i.e. one with which you could find employment easier than others?

I havent heard anything like that, but it is that way with Bus., Law etc

As I've mentioned before, both TCD and UCD have some serious problems with their courses, based on personal experiences or based on accounts from alumni.

I have heard some seriously good things about CS in DIT though, look into it?

stainluss

Fad wrote: »

I have heard some seriously good things about CS in DIT though, look into it?

I like the sound of the choice, but would it be less attractive to employers, job-wise in comparison to UCD/TCD esp. abroad?Due to tcd being well known?

(I understand this isnt always the case e.g. MIT)

Fad

stainluss wrote: »

I like the sound of the choice, but would it be less attractive to employers, job-wise in comparison to UCD/TCD esp. abroad?Due to tcd being well known?

(I understand this isnt always the case e.g. MIT)

Nah, DIT tends to have placements built into their degrees. This means you have experience to stick down on a CV (Meaning you have one up on UCD/TCD graduates who have no workplace experience, basically, industry experience is incredibly useful when you're looking for a job)

Abroad, I have no idea. Degrees in IT are two for a penny now though, you need experience to back to up a degree before an interviewer will take you seriously. That or get your hands dirty with extra cirricular (And by that I dont mean sport, I mean programming etc) so you can demonstrate you can programme well.

I've heard way too many stories of people being able to get through a CS degree with out being able to code at all, and HR departments probably have heard these too.

(MIT is an IT in name only really, it has little or no correlation with DIT. It being one of the best universities in the world and whatnot, DIT being a future university)

satchmo

stainluss wrote: »

Did you find it hard to get your position in Vancouver? Do you know of anyone going to the US? Is there much demand for people in this line of business in the US/Canada?

I had two interviews lined up when I got here, but I'm pretty sure it was the area of my PhD that got me these (graphics & the Cell processor). Even then it was hard enough, and it's only gotten harder with the downturn. There is a fair bit of demand here and in the states alright, but there are also a helluva lot of people who want to work in games.

ronivek

Fad wrote: »

As I've mentioned before, both TCD and UCD have some serious problems with their courses, based on personal experiences or based on accounts from alumni.

I have heard some seriously good things about CS in DIT though, look into it?

Serious problems might be a slight exaggeration. If you're a reasonably intelligent and self-motivated individual you'll get a lot out of your computer science degree there. If you've tended to struggle with mathematical and scientific concepts then it may not be the choice for you. One of the key issues with TCD for example is a distinct lack of challenging coursework (both in terms of quantity and quality) for the most part; and examinations which are not particularly taxing.

Fad wrote: »

Nah, DIT tends to have placements built into their degrees. This means you have experience to stick down on a CV (Meaning you have one up on UCD/TCD graduates who have no workplace experience, basically, industry experience is incredibly useful when you're looking for a job)

Abroad, I have no idea. Degrees in IT are two for a penny now though, you need experience to back to up a degree before an interviewer will take you seriously. That or get your hands dirty with extra cirricular (And by that I dont mean sport, I mean programming etc) so you can demonstrate you can programme well.

TCD is the most well respected university outside Ireland; however representative of reality that may or may not be is debatable but you'll definitely find more people who have at least heard of the university than say UCD. I would suggest this is probably only an issue if you're targeting a very specific research area in the world of academia however; otherwise it's not likely to make a huge difference.

In terms of placements; alongside offering plenty of departmental research internships, you also have the option of interning in various companies during the summer whilst you're completing your degree in TCD. Whilst you could certainly accrue more experience completing a degree with a built-in placement; it is not strictly a good reason for choosing one degree over another.

I think the most important thing for you to consider is that to really shine in interviews after you've completed your degree (no matter where it is) you really need to be working outside the course curriculum. You need to be getting real world experience, competing in various student competitions, contributing to open source software, playing around with the aspects of computer science you enjoy and so on and so forth. It also helps if you've a knack for solving problems and thinking on your feet.

Pygmalion

I'll shill DCU as I'm 1st year Computer Applications and loving it.
There's work placement in 3rd year so you get the work experience too to put down on your CV, some excellent lecturers too (One or two boring ones as well, but none I'd consider that bad).

Facilities are fairly good too, fastest internet you'll ever see in the labs (and if you get on campus accommodation you're set), excellent library.

There's an active computer networking society which regularly has talks/tutorials, trips away, this year they went to Bletchley Park in England to a museum about the code-breakers in WW2, unfortunately I wasn't able to attend so can't say much more than that.
They also had a trip to Limerick to get talks from, among others, members of the Ubuntu project (in conjunction with the UL society, who organised it).
The less exciting/big things they do include stuff like an IRC network (which is also connected with TCD and UL, so you can chat with them on it too), they provide a shell account on their servers (with instructions on using it and stuff) and webspace (up to 2GB I think).

Also the games society released their own RPG this year (money going to charity) and are currently making a sequel (and like it seems to be fairly open in terms of who can help, I know a few people I wouldn't expect to be that active in the society or anything who said they'd like to help and it was grand, they were first years too), they also had tutorials earlier in the year about games programming, I can't say much about this though as I'm not a member of gamesoc.

C14N

I haven't had the chance to look on here in a little while, nice to see the number of replies.:)

Making It Bad wrote: »

Nice rig

I don't know how your maths is but a degree in mathematics might also be an option? If you're serious about developing games you have to think about what part of the game you want to develop. For example do you want to make the physics engine which powers the game? If you're interested in something similar to this then you need a strong grasp in mathematics because due to the nature of things differential calculations and other calculus is being carried out in order to calculate distance and how things react etc.

Thanks, I built the PC myself;)

Maths is something I'm quite good at, one of my strongest subjects I'd say. I'm doing higher level now in school and I really have no problems with it at all so I expect to keep it going until the LC.

ronivek wrote: »

You can't really go wrong with computer science; it's the basic prerequisite for many positions in computing and information technology.

You also have the option of completing your primary degree in computer science and subsequently doing some game development related research or a taught masters such as the MSc in Interactive Entertainment Technology.

Having talked to various people over the years about game development general gist of it seems to be:

• You'll likely need to do a lot of job hunting to find something; unless you're really very good.
• You'll likely have to move even when you do find something.
• Generally speaking you'll get paid less than a developer with similar abilities in business related software development.
• Having a passion for playing computer games is absolutely not the same thing as having a passion for developing computer games; once you actually get into it.

HOWEVER; take the above with a pinch of salt as I've never had much interest in the area and therefore could have misrepresented game development as a career choice.

I guess I could always be really very good:p I've heard of that Masters Degree in Trinity and I'd be very interested in doing it. I wouldn't mind moving abroad at all for a good while, I'd actually find it pretty exciting. I'm sure having an interest in video games is still a bit of a help though right? Even if only to keep one motivated at their job.

satchmo wrote: »

Once you've done a real CS degree, feel free to go on and do something like the IET MSc in Trinity (good course) if you want to stay in college for a bit longer. But even then, the sooner you get out there and into the industry the better - you'll learn so much more in the same amount of time as doing a postgrad.

And like Ronivek said, you'll more than likely have to move abroad to get any good industry experience - I moved to Vancouver!

Is it possible to do the IET course with a degree in computer engineering or does it have to be computer science? As I've said, I'd be inclined to go for it if I could. I know that experience is very important but to get it I'd still need to get an initial job which would surely be easier with a post grad right?

Moving to Vancouver sounds cool. What company is it for?

satchmo wrote: »

I had two interviews lined up when I got here, but I'm pretty sure it was the area of my PhD that got me these (graphics & the Cell processor). Even then it was hard enough, and it's only gotten harder with the downturn. There is a fair bit of demand here and in the states alright, but there are also a helluva lot of people who want to work in games.

Where did you get your PhD? I'd be willing to work to get one myself in the future if it seemed like a good idea. What sort of stuff do you have to do for one?

People have mentioned that there aren't a lot of jobs going in the field but on any website of one of the major publishers I can think of, there always seem to be a few spots that need filling in the jobs or careers section.

Thanks for all the help so far guys, it's been massively beneficial.

satchmo

C14N wrote: »

I'm sure having an interest in video games is still a bit of a help though right? Even if only to keep one motivated at their job.

It's true that you don't necessarily need a passion for games to work on them - but all the best people I know play every game they can get their hands on. During the interview process your game-playing habits will definitely come up at some stage (even if it's just in small talk), and in my opinion an awareness of what's going on in the industry and what other games are doing (and whether it works or not) is essential.

Is it possible to do the IET course with a degree in computer engineering or does it have to be computer science? As I've said, I'd be inclined to go for it if I could. I know that experience is very important but to get it I'd still need to get an initial job which would surely be easier with a post grad right?

I doubt it's CS-only - as long as you can program, have a good degree and are committed I'm sure you'd be eligible. You'd want to double-check though, don't take my word for it.

Moving to Vancouver sounds cool. What company is it for? Where did you get your PhD? I'd be willing to work to get one myself in the future if it seemed like a good idea. What sort of stuff do you have to do for one?

I'm senior graphics programmer at Radical Entertainment. I did my PhD with the ISG (now GV2) at TCD. As I said before, ultimately it's experience in the industry that will get you places, so even though I went the postgrad route I would actually recommend getting into the industry instead if possible (in my case I wasn't in a position to move away at the time I finished my degree). Not that I didn't enjoy my PhD, I definitely did - but I know now that I would have learned much more about what I love working on in the same amount of time. Doing a PhD means lots of research and lots of writing, and isn't necessarily for everyone - although others love it. In your case not even having done the LC I'd wait until you get a few years in college under your belt before even starting to think about making a decision one way or the other - I guarantee you'll have a completely different outlook by then!

C14N

satchmo wrote: »

It's true that you don't necessarily need a passion for games to work on them - but all the best people I know play every game they can get their hands on. During the interview process your game-playing habits will definitely come up at some stage (even if it's just in small talk), and in my opinion an awareness of what's going on in the industry and what other games are doing (and whether it works or not) is essential.

Yeah that's kind of what I figured. Also, being into games will make it much easier to know if whatever aspect you're doing is being done well (or so I'd assume).

satchmo wrote: »

I doubt it's CS-only - as long as you can program, have a good degree and are committed I'm sure you'd be eligible. You'd want to double-check though, don't take my word for it.

I'll be sure to ask on the open day:)

satchmo wrote: »

I'm senior graphics programmer at Radical Entertainment. I did my PhD with the ISG (now GV2) at TCD. As I said before, ultimately it's experience in the industry that will get you places, so even though I went the postgrad route I would actually recommend getting into the industry instead if possible (in my case I wasn't in a position to move away at the time I finished my degree). Not that I didn't enjoy my PhD, I definitely did - but I know now that I would have learned much more about what I love working on in the same amount of time. Doing a PhD means lots of research and lots of writing, and isn't necessarily for everyone - although others love it. In your case not even having done the LC I'd wait until you get a few years in college under your belt before even starting to think about making a decision one way or the other - I guarantee you'll have a completely different outlook by then!

I agree. I won't have to make the decision for years yet and I'm sure I'll be much better informed too. And anyway, there's always the possibility of going back to a PhD later in life if it becomes important right? How long does a Masters take to get though, like is it the same length as a normal undergraduate course (3-5 years)?

satchmo

Yeah you can always come back and do a postgrad if you still want to later on. A masters is usually one year (sometimes two), and a PhD is usually four, but both of those can vary wildly depending on the person & circumstance.

C14N

satchmo wrote: »

Yeah you can always come back and do a postgrad if you still want to later on. A masters is usually one year (sometimes two), and a PhD is usually four, but both of those can vary wildly depending on the person & circumstance.

That's good.

I hope it's not too personal but what's the pay like? Someone mentioned above that it's generally lower than those with equal abilities so do you think that's true or not?

And what about opportunities of promotion and stuff? If there's one thing I don't want, it's being stuck in a dead end job with no chance of moving up in the world. It's kind of why the Engineering degree appeals to me, since there's a lot of overlap between engineers and CEOs and managers. I'm not trying to be overly optimistic here, I'm just saying I like the opportunities.

satchmo

The pay's pretty decent as far as I can tell, but as with every industry, it depends who you work for, what country you work in etc. Cost of living is also definitely a factor - you might get a high salary living somewhere, but if rent and food is rediculously expensive then it's not much different to a mediocre salary in a cheap city.

As for opportunities, again it depends on the company. Generally I'd say there's more room for promotions in a larger company, as there will be a higher turnover. But no matter what the size of the company, it's really up to how good you are. Type of degree doesn't really matter as far as games companies go, it's more important for getting the job in the first place - a CS degree probably being looked on as most favourable. But then I work with guys with CS degrees, physics degrees, engineering degrees - once you're in the job it's nothing to do with what letters you have after your name, and all to do with how good you are.

As for being promoted into management... be careful what you wish for

C14N

satchmo wrote: »

As for opportunities, again it depends on the company. Generally I'd say there's more room for promotions in a larger company, as there will be a higher turnover. But no matter what the size of the company, it's really up to how good you are. Type of degree doesn't really matter as far as games companies go, it's more important for getting the job in the first place - a CS degree probably being looked on as most favourable. But then I work with guys with CS degrees, physics degrees, engineering degrees - once you're in the job it's nothing to do with what letters you have after your name, and all to do with how good you are.

Well I was thinking it's less about the title of the degree and more about what you learn in the course.

Did you find it hard to find a job? Because another thing people mentioned up above was that there aren't many going but it looks to me from the sites of the publishers that there are.

satchmo

Honestly yes it was hard enough, although like I said I think the PhD helped a lot in getting me the initial interviews. There are a decent amount of jobs available if you're willing to move around, but the catch is that the vast majority require some industry experience - it's common to see requirements like "3 years experience", "1 shipped title", "PS3 & 360 experience". Nobody really wants to take a grad straight out of college and train them up, as schedules are usually very tight and new hires are expected to get up to speed and be productive quickly. It's kind of a chicken-and-egg situation; you need experience to work in the industry, but you need to work in the industry to get experience.