Anglo executives and directors fees 2009

jmayo

Well it appears that Anglo bosses scoop €19m reward for leading bank to €12.7bn loss

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/anglo-bosses-scoop-19m-reward-for-leading-bank-to-127bn-loss-452209.html#ixzz0jms2MhOX

Collapsed Anglo Irish Bank paid top management €19m in the 15 months to the end of last year, including €7m in salaries and €1m in directors' fees.

One of those in the money in that period was disgraced former chief executive and chairman Sean FitzPatrick, who managed to secure €131,000 in fees in his last few months at the property bank.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/anglo-bosses-scoop-19m-reward-for-leading-bank-to-127bn-loss-452209.html#ixzz0jmsMFY5Z

Where does it end ?

Liam Byrne

I've given up debating, discussing or thinking about this, because it's too sickening for words.

All I know is that if an FF or Green canvasser trespasses on my doorstep with their weasel words I will not be held responsible for my actions.

I mean, that's only fair, because they don't seem to hold ANYONE responsible, right ?

And we're all equal.

ei.sdraob

i find it amazing that it seems some people would still vote in this corrupt crowd

and whats worse is that some members here actively defend past and present FF/Greens decisions which are leading from one disaster to a larger disaster

fontanalis

So on top of not having to pay back their loans, Ireland is like the pseudo celebrity culture where stupidity is celebrated and mediocrity rewarded.

jmayo

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I've given up debating, discussing or thinking about this, because it's too sickening for words.

All I know is that if an FF or Green canvasser trespasses on my doorstep with their weasel words I will not be held responsible for my actions.

I mean, that's only fair, because they don't seem to hold ANYONE responsible, right ?

And we're all equal.

At this stage I don't care if this is seen to breach forum rules, but I consider anyone that now stands with ff as being the same as their leader and the parliamentary party.
And I think Gilmore summed up best what they are.

Every baby born in this country since yesterday afternoon now comes into the world facing something like an immediate €5,000 debt.
By God that is some legacy to bequeath to the children of this country.

MaceFace

jmayo wrote: »

At this stage I don't care if this is seen to breach forum rules, but I consider anyone that now stands with ff as being the same as their leader and the parliamentary party.
And I think Gilmore summed up best what they are.

Every baby born in this country since yesterday afternoon now comes into the world facing something like an immediate €5,000 debt.
By God that is some legacy to bequeath to the children of this country.

I don't see anything wrong with that post, but can you riddle me this.......

Is it okay to vote FF if I agree that they got us into this mess, but I think they are the best to get us out of it?

paddyland

MaceFace wrote: »

I don't see anything wrong with that post, but can you riddle me this.......

Is it okay to vote FF if I agree that they got us into this mess, but I think they are the best to get us out of it?

No, you are voting for more of the same.

If two guys rob a JCB to knock down a bank wall and run off with the ATM, you don't invite them back to rebuild the wall...

fontanalis

MaceFace wrote: »

I don't see anything wrong with that post, but can you riddle me this.......

Is it okay to vote FF if I agree that they got us into this mess, but I think they are the best to get us out of it?

Well they set a great example with rescuing Anglo!

Laminations

MaceFace wrote: »

I don't see anything wrong with that post, but can you riddle me this.......

Is it okay to vote FF if I agree that they got us into this mess, but I think they are the best to get us out of it?

You think their stategy with NAMA and Anglo are correct? You think their lack of a jobs strategy or stimulus package is the best way to get us out of this mess?

Read an alternative viewpoint

Brian Lucey wrote:

The overall consequence is that Anglo has no strategy -- this is a recipe for further unquantifiable losses. These losses, unknowable but presumably large, must be taken into account when considering whether it has a future or not. In my mind they tip the scales firmly to the NO camp. Anglo must die.

jmayo

MaceFace wrote: »

I don't see anything wrong with that post, but can you riddle me this.......

Is it okay to vote FF if I agree that they got us into this mess, but I think they are the best to get us out of it?

I think Fontanalis, Paddyland and Laminations answered your question as I would have.

Let me ask you this.
How is diverting every cent we have, every cent we will have, to save the banks going to save our economy ?

What economy will we have when we have semi functioning banks, high bank charges, very little lending to productive enterprises, a huge national debt, high cost of state borrowing, high taxes, poor services, high spending on public sector wages and social welfare ?

It's not much use having banks if we have no economy.

MaceFace

paddyland wrote: »

No, you are voting for more of the same.

If two guys rob a JCB to knock down a bank wall and run off with the ATM, you don't invite them back to rebuild the wall...

Don't get me wrong, I hate what went on and I think Bertie is one of the worst leaders this country has ever had. Many of the people there are just as responsible for this mess.
But, what you are asking is do I want to see FG in power and do I have faith that they can get us out of the mess. The answer is not really.
Now is not the time for finger pointing and retribution. Lets keep that for when we are on the road to recovery and make sure everyone responsible pays for the mess.

fontanalis wrote: »

Well they set a great example with rescuing Anglo!

Agreed, but would FG have done any different. It is easy now looking back.

Laminations wrote: »

You think their stategy with NAMA and Anglo are correct? You think their lack of a jobs strategy or stimulus package is the best way to get us out of this mess?

Read an alternative viewpoint

I think NAMA is very good and I am fully behind it.
I think Anglo is a joke and I am getting very tired giving the benefit of the doubt.

Regarding a stimulus package. Tell me this: 1) where does the money come from and 2) how do you stimulate a small open ecomony where most the stimulus package will end up benefiting other countries due to reliance on imports?

jmayo wrote: »

I think Fontanalis, Paddyland and Laminations answered your question as I would have.

Let me ask you this.
How is diverting every cent we have, every cent we will have, to save the banks going to save our economy ?

What economy will we have when we have semi functioning banks, high bank charges, very little lending to productive enterprises, a huge national debt, high cost of state borrowing, high taxes, poor services, high spending on public sector wages and social welfare ?

It's not much use having banks if we have no economy.

Well the fact is that we have a small number of options, the government chose one, and no one has proved that it is the wrong solution.
The facts are that no longer are we listening to the Ireland/Iceland joke.
Recently, when the PIIGS word was first spoken, it only had one I and that was for Italy.
The honest truth is that while we are in a very very very bad place, and it will probably get worse, we are in a much better place than we were a year ago.

All these headline grabbing words you write above are irrelevant as it would be much much worse if we let the banking system fail.

fontanalis

MaceFace wrote: »

Don't get me wrong, I hate what went on and I think Bertie is one of the worst leaders this country has ever had. Many of the people there are just as responsible for this mess.
But, what you are asking is do I want to see FG in power and do I have faith that they can get us out of the mess. The answer is not really.
Now is not the time for finger pointing and retribution. Lets keep that for when we are on the road to recovery and make sure everyone responsible pays for the mess.



Agreed, but would FG have done any different. It is easy now looking back.



I think NAMA is very good and I am fully behind it.
I think Anglo is a joke and I am getting very tired giving the benefit of the doubt.

Regarding a stimulus package. Tell me this: 1) where does the money come from and 2) how do you stimulate a small open ecomony where most the stimulus package will end up benefiting other countries due to reliance on imports?


Well the fact is that we have a small number of options, the government chose one, and no one has proved that it is the wrong solution.
The facts are that no longer are we listening to the Ireland/Iceland joke.
Recently, when the PIIGS word was first spoken, it only had one I and that was for Italy.
The honest truth is that while we are in a very very very bad place, and it will probably get worse, we are in a much better place than we were a year ago.

All these headline grabbing words you write above are irrelevant as it would be much much worse if we let the banking system fail.

Is this what it always comes down to?
The fact is that very recently the top three people in the country got to where they were through what family they were from, that seems to sum up FF for me.

akkadian

MaceFace wrote: »

Don't get me wrong, I hate what went on and I think Bertie is one of the worst leaders this country has ever had. Many of the people there are just as responsible for this mess.
But, what you are asking is do I want to see FG in power and do I have faith that they can get us out of the mess. The answer is not really.
Now is not the time for finger pointing and retribution. Lets keep that for when we are on the road to recovery and make sure everyone responsible pays for the mess.



Agreed, but would FG have done any different. It is easy now looking back.



I think NAMA is very good and I am fully behind it.
I think Anglo is a joke and I am getting very tired giving the benefit of the doubt.

Regarding a stimulus package. Tell me this: 1) where does the money come from and 2) how do you stimulate a small open ecomony where most the stimulus package will end up benefiting other countries due to reliance on imports?


Well the fact is that we have a small number of options, the government chose one, and no one has proved that it is the wrong solution.
The facts are that no longer are we listening to the Ireland/Iceland joke.
Recently, when the PIIGS word was first spoken, it only had one I and that was for Italy.
The honest truth is that while we are in a very very very bad place, and it will probably get worse, we are in a much better place than we were a year ago.

All these headline grabbing words you write above are irrelevant as it would be much much worse if we let the banking system fail.

The EU will hopefully do a good job auditing Anglo's balance sheet.

On another note, what have any of you done to spread the reputations of these people??

It's an important question. I don't fully depend on the Media and government to do this though I believe they have a responsibility to do this and to get the assets back.

Noone complained about the extra credit, jobs, property going around in the good times, so people like Sean Fitzpatrick and David Drumm could be forgiven for that.

What they can't be forgiven for, is the loan/bonuses they awarded themselves before leaving Anglo. Provided the government wasn't complicit in these bonuses, they ought to be arrested and more importantly, charged! not just released the next day - put on trial. I have already made an effort to smear their reputations onlini. Help out and do the same or are you all 20-20 hindsight and talk?

Anyone have family friends in Cape Cod? Why not let them know who's living there.
Fitzpatrick owns shares in a casino in Macau. A casino, who would have guessed?
I'm awaiting the media to get more into the lives of these people if not the government but why not encourage them by reminding them what the people want: BLOOD.
Please, remember your patriotic duty to help bring these people to justice.

Liam Byrne

akkadian wrote: »

I have already made an effort to smear their reputations onlini. Help out and do the same or are you all 20-20 hindsight and talk?

I wouldn't go "smearing" anyone; that said, you hardly need to with these con-artists, all you need to do is state the facts.

akkadian wrote: »

Please, remember your patriotic duty to help bring these people to justice.

That'll require FF getting out of bed and turning on their former Galway Tent mistresses.

jmayo

MaceFace wrote: »

Don't get me wrong, I hate what went on and I think Bertie is one of the worst leaders this country has ever had. Many of the people there are just as responsible for this mess.
But, what you are asking is do I want to see FG in power and do I have faith that they can get us out of the mess. The answer is not really.
Now is not the time for finger pointing and retribution. Lets keep that for when we are on the road to recovery and make sure everyone responsible pays for the mess.

Now, or rather yesterday was the time for not just finger pointing and retribution but investigations, trials and asset stripping individuals.
You cannot expect people to take hardships all the while they view the ones that primarily caused the mess fly off into the sunset.
Hell they even went off with pension top ups, write offs on their debts and get to enjoy their lives abroad (see drumm, fitzpatrick, quinlan to name but the first few).

Your comment about finger pointing also angers me, since it assumes it is some little misdemeanour these people have carried out, they have wrecked out economy. It is not some little matter that we can revisit someday.
People need to be seen to be responsible now.
F**ks sake if bernie madoff operated here he would still be foot loose and fancy free heading off to Spain to play golf. :rolleyes:

MaceFace wrote: »

Agreed, but would FG have done any different. It is easy now looking back.

Why the typical ff cop out line ?
Shure they would be as bad as us.

It doesn't matter because they weren't.
Fact is ff and their cronies presided over the economy, not FG, Labour, SF or anyone else.

MaceFace wrote: »

I think NAMA is very good and I am fully behind it.
I think Anglo is a joke and I am getting very tired giving the benefit of the doubt.

So you think Anglo is a joke but yet see nothing wrong with pouring around €22 billion plus the NAMA amount down the drain for it ?

MaceFace wrote: »

Regarding a stimulus package. Tell me this: 1) where does the money come from and 2) how do you stimulate a small open ecomony where most the stimulus package will end up benefiting other countries due to reliance on imports?

Well where is the recapitalisation money for Anglo and IN coming from ?
AFAIK the recapitalisation money is not the same as the ECB related funds for NAMA, so it is pure debt.
Would it not be better to at least use a fraction of the money to try and keep people in jobs in companies that export, so that if worldwide economy takes off the companies are still in business ?
What about starting an extensive infrastructure rebuilding project along the lines of Roosevelts in the 1930s ?
It would take workers off the dole, create work, create much needed infrastructure and maybe just move things along.

MaceFace wrote: »

Well the fact is that we have a small number of options, the government chose one, and no one has proved that it is the wrong solution.

So you are willing to bet the country's future on it.
The only thing we know about the solution is that involves throwing huge amounts of money at a black hole with no guarantee of anything really except the taxpayers will eventaully carry the cost.

MaceFace wrote: »

The facts are that no longer are we listening to the Ireland/Iceland joke.
Recently, when the PIIGS word was first spoken, it only had one I and that was for Italy.
The honest truth is that while we are in a very very very bad place, and it will probably get worse, we are in a much better place than we were a year ago.

All these headline grabbing words you write above are irrelevant as it would be much much worse if we let the banking system fail.

You claim I write in headline grabbing phrases yet all you appear to care about is if the financial markets make a joke about us.
These would be the same rating agencies and bond markets, that couldn't spot the sh**e subprime they were up to their necks in.

I would say this undertaking is adding to our chances of defaulting down the road.
We have added hugely to our national debt by this move and do you think that will have no effect on our credit rating ?

As Moore McDowell claims we are knocking 5% off GDP for the next 20 odd years.
How is that going to help our economy.

I bet iceland will have recovered before us.

IMHO the only ones I really see believing in this scheme are ffers, those who would believe anything they are told by ff, their hangers on in the greens/pds/etc, bankers who see it as their salvation, some developers/builders who see it as prolonging the enevitable, auctioneers/EAs who probably see it as providing an artifical floor on property prices and a certain cache of economists or rather would be economists who often appear to think rather condescendingly that because they have studied the subject for a while they know best.
They might know economic theory but most I bet don't know good business sense and some good old fashioned common sense which says throwing good money after bad rarely leads to success.

Most ordinary taxpayers see it as just adding more hardship and consigning them to a bleak future.

akkadian

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I wouldn't go "smearing" anyone; that said, you hardly need to with these con-artists, all you need to do is state the facts.



That'll require FF getting out of bed and turning on their former Galway Tent mistresses.

You wouldn't. 'Exposing' or 'exemplifying' might be better words.
Are Irish people just part of a rug you walk on.

Fitzpatrick: 'yeah don't worry Mr. Drumm. They're a push-over. I raped them and then gave myself a nice bonus. Think I might settle in Macau where I own part of a casino.

Drumm: Sounds good, I think I'll rape them and setlle in Cape Cod. I know I'll get away with. Irish people are a joke, u can get away with murder in that place.

Fitzpatrick True. AGHHAHAHHAHAH

Sir Oxman

To paraphrase Moore McDowell on Primetime the other night:

"Since I can't see why (pumping billions to keep Anglo alive rather than close it) I remain a skeptic"

I think that's a healthy outlook to take.

Dannyboy83

gambiaman wrote: »

To paraphrase Moore McDowell on Primetime the other night:

"Since I can't see why (pumping billions to keep Anglo alive rather than close it) I remain a skeptic"

I think that's a healthy outlook to take.

Haven't a clue who he is, googled him and found this;
http://www.shane-ross.ie/archives/201/this-is-an-election-to-lose/
which I thought was interesting, given that its 3 years ago.

Glad Shane Ross didn't take Bertie's advice.

bamboozle

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I've given up debating, discussing or thinking about this, because it's too sickening for words.

All I know is that if an FF or Green canvasser trespasses on my doorstep with their weasel words I will not be held responsible for my actions.

I mean, that's only fair, because they don't seem to hold ANYONE responsible, right ?

And we're all equal.

we need to take it a step further than this and contact our local TD's and councillers and tell them in no uncertain terms that this carryon will not stand.

MaceFace

jmayo wrote: »

Now, or rather yesterday was the time for not just finger pointing and retribution but investigations, trials and asset stripping individuals.
You cannot expect people to take hardships all the while they view the ones that primarily caused the mess fly off into the sunset.
Hell they even went off with pension top ups, write offs on their debts and get to enjoy their lives abroad (see drumm, fitzpatrick, quinlan to name but the first few).

By all means, vent your anger and point fingers, but point that finger of yours in the right place (developers/bankers), but demanding retribution from FF at this stage will jeopardise the recovery imo as I don't think the alternative (FG) have any idea of what to do.

jmayo wrote: »

Your comment about finger pointing also angers me, since it assumes it is some little misdemeanour these people have carried out, they have wrecked out economy. It is not some little matter that we can revisit someday.
People need to be seen to be responsible now.
F**ks sake if bernie madoff operated here he would still be foot loose and fancy free heading off to Spain to play golf. :rolleyes:

Well, we live in a very different place that the States, and whether you favour that legal system or ours, it is a completely different matter.

jmayo wrote: »

Why the typical ff cop out line ?
Shure they would be as bad as us.

Ah, so anyone who believes that FG would have done the same must be a FF'er?
Really moving the discussion on there.

jmayo wrote: »

It doesn't matter because they weren't.
Fact is ff and their cronies presided over the economy, not FG, Labour, SF or anyone else.

It does matter. Using this argument, then we should have Labour or SF in charge of the country before FF. I don't think you will get too many agreeing with you there.

jmayo wrote: »

So you think Anglo is a joke but yet see nothing wrong with pouring around €22 billion plus the NAMA amount down the drain for it ?

Where did I say I see nothing wrong with pouring money into Anglo? I have never defended this, but I know enough about what is going on to realise that it is not just a case of black and white and know that we can't just let Anglo fail tomorrow without one hell of a sh1tstorm appearing on the horizon.

NAMA is very different, and as I have said previously, I think it is a very good solution, and taking this by itself (without recapitalisation), there is a very good chance of it either breaking even or making a profit.
Considering the alternatives, this is the least worst option.

jmayo wrote: »

Well where is the recapitalisation money for Anglo and IN coming from ?
AFAIK the recapitalisation money is not the same as the ECB related funds for NAMA, so it is pure debt.
Would it not be better to at least use a fraction of the money to try and keep people in jobs in companies that export, so that if worldwide economy takes off the companies are still in business ?
What about starting an extensive infrastructure rebuilding project along the lines of Roosevelts in the 1930s ?
It would take workers off the dole, create work, create much needed infrastructure and maybe just move things along.

You can save Anglo and stiumlate the economy. The fact is that Anglo is going to cost us a bundle of money whatever we do with it now. Maybe you can explain what you would do with Anglo and how you could save some of that money which could be diverted to somewhere else rather than being so negative?

Your stimulus package needs to come form other sources of income which we simply do not have.
As I said, in a small open ecomony such as ours, a stimulus package will end up stimulating other countries more than ours where we rely heavily on imports.
Carrying out work such as infrastructure improvement will not create wealth for the country because it is not something we can sell to others and get money. The only benefit is that we will end up with better infrastructure (while a good thing, it doesn't stimulate business), while diverting money from social welfare to a road building program. This will also result in immigration of construction workers which is not going to help.

A real stimulus package may be to offer further incentives to MNCs to relocate here, and that is why we need the international market to recover first.

jmayo wrote: »

So you are willing to bet the country's future on it.
The only thing we know about the solution is that involves throwing huge amounts of money at a black hole with no guarantee of anything really except the taxpayers will eventaully carry the cost.

Well, I have listed to all sides, and there really is only three alternatives:
1. Do what we are doing.
2. Nationalise the entire banking system.
3. Let the banking system fail.

Is there any I am missing?
If not, do I need to explain why 2) and 3) are not good solutions?

jmayo wrote: »

You claim I write in headline grabbing phrases yet all you appear to care about is if the financial markets make a joke about us.
These would be the same rating agencies and bond markets, that couldn't spot the sh**e subprime they were up to their necks in.

My examples have shown that last year we were considered to be on deaths door, but this year, the consensus is that we are a recovering patient.

jmayo: It is very hard for me to argue the facts when you revert to calling me a FF'er or ignoring anyone who didn't predict the depression. If your hatred of the current system is so great that you just want a change no matter what it means, there is no changing you mind and therefore no point in debating the points.

jmayo wrote: »

I would say this undertaking is adding to our chances of defaulting down the road.
We have added hugely to our national debt by this move and do you think that will have no effect on our credit rating ?

The interest rate on 10-year Irish government debt fell five basis points (0.05pc) to 4.42pc yesterday -- the biggest fall among eurozone government bonds -- as IMF spokesman Gerry Rice said the Government's actions have been vital to maintain financial stability in Ireland.

jmayo wrote: »

As Moore McDowell claims we are knocking 5% off GDP for the next 20 odd years.
How is that going to help our economy.

Well, I think a lot of people are taking what he said out of context as he never explained his point when he made it.
Our GDP is $177 billion.
Taking 5% per year for 20 years would give us a GDP of $63 billion.
That would put us somewhere between Kenya and Peurto Rico.

Simply put, that is rubbish. I think he was talking about worst case scenario - if all the money we are giving out goes into a black hole and is never seen again.

jmayo wrote: »

I bet iceland will have recovered before us.

IMHO the only ones I really see believing in this scheme are ffers, those who would believe anything they are told by ff, their hangers on in the
greens/pds/etc, bankers who see it as their salvation, some developers/builders who see it as prolonging the enevitable, auctioneers/EAs who probably see it as providing an artifical floor on property prices and a certain cache of economists or rather would be economists who often appear to think rather condescendingly that because they have studied the subject for a while they know best.
They might know economic theory but most I bet don't know good business sense and some good old fashioned common sense which says throwing good money after bad rarely leads to success.

Most ordinary taxpayers see it as just adding more hardship and consigning them to a bleak future.

Well, I believe the scheme, and I am not a FF'er.
I listened to a fantastic interview with Ivan Yates on The Right Hook the other day and he changed my mind on keeping Anglo opened. He also backed NAMA and said it was neccessary. I honestly don't think I can ever give you references you will accept because you will either throw them back at me saying they are either FF'ers, part of the establishment, or don't know what they are talking about because they didn't predict what was going to happen.


For all the moaning I have heard on boards, there is not one single alternative to NAMA that stands up to most basic scrutiny.

gambiaman wrote: »

To paraphrase Moore McDowell on Primetime the other night:

"Since I can't see why (pumping billions to keep Anglo alive rather than close it) I remain a skeptic"

I think that's a healthy outlook to take.

Yes, I agree, but we have to accept that we may never know because there may be skeletons in the closet that if they came out, would kill the country.
Also, there is a difference between being a skeptic and just plain being opposed.

bamboozle

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Haven't a clue who he is, googled him and found this;
http://www.shane-ross.ie/archives/201/this-is-an-election-to-lose/
which I thought was interesting, given that its 3 years ago.

Glad Shane Ross didn't take Bertie's advice.

Ross has been writing about the banks and FAS for the last 5 years in his sunday indo articles, its just no-one bothered listening to him.

bamboozle

If/when Fine Gael come in one of the first things you would expect them to do is to have a public enquiry into the banking crisis.
the incumbents cannot afford to let this happen as fingers would point very firmly in the direction of Bertie, Charlie, Cowan amongst others.
So for no other reason i want to see FG in power.

well actually there are lots of reasons, i'd nearly take the Munster pack who play tonight ahead of the eejits we have in power at the moment.

Sir Oxman

MaceFace wrote: »

Yes, I agree, but we have to accept that we may never know because there may be skeletons in the closet that if they came out, would kill the country.
Also, there is a difference between being a skeptic and just plain being opposed.

And on that 'appaling vista':

"
Guarantee Meetings to Stay Secret

By Karl Whelan
Sunday, January 24th, 2010 The Sunday Times reports that the Information Commissioner, Emily O’Reilly, has denied their Freedom of Information request to release documents related to two meetings on the night of September 29/30, 2008, one involving senior ministers and officials and another also involving senior banking executives. The paper reports:

In making the decision, she rejected advice from Sean Garvey, a senior investigator in the Office of the Information Commissioner (OIC), who recommended that the documents be released to The Sunday Times under the Freedom of Information (FoI) legislation because of strong “public interest”.
"


Irisheconomy.ie