MBA more hindrance then help?

MonkeyBone

Hi all,

I am wondering does anyone out there have any tips or advice. I graduated from my course last year with an MBA but this has not been of much help in getting a job here in Ireland. I worked in Manchester for 3 months and I got a lot of job offers from companies in England after finishing college but because of family circumstances I had to come back to stay in Ireland. I thought the MBA would open doors but in this country it hasn't. For most of the jobs I applied for I received a generic response such as: "we have decided to go for a more experienced candidate." I thought that I needed any kind of job (relative to my field of study) to build up my experience so I have been applying for everything that would suit but over the last few months I have been receiving responses like "I am overqualified for the position."

My experience is mainly academic (6 years) and a little over a years work experience that I did while finishing my last year of college. I am 24 and I have been unemployed now for 9 months.

I am sorry that this sounds like a lot of whinging but I am at my wits end. From the feedback I did receive after interviews I know that my interview technique is very good and my C.V is impressive. Or is that also just a generic response too?

I am just wondering is it the fact that I am 24 with an MBA or that I have an MBA with such little experience that has me stuck in limbo?

AARRRGH

What sort of jobs are you applying for?

helimachoptor

MonkeyBone wrote: »

I am just wondering is it the fact that I am 24 with an MBA or that I have an MBA with such little experience that has me stuck in limbo?

Honestly this is the issue, you have an undergrad and an MBA yet no real experience of applying it. I've got a BSc in comp sci and I'm currently doing a BA in tech management, however if i had done the BA during 18-22 it would not have been relevant. However now i can apply the stuff i learn in college to my job, i can use real world example in essays etc.

I have some friends that did their undergrad and then a masters (and one did another masters) and they really really struggled to find jobs in their field.

Imo a masters and specifically a MBA is best suits after a number of years experience in industry.

What is your undergrad in? If it's in something technical perhaps try to get a job there and then utilise the MBA to move up the chain.

MonkeyBone

I did my undergraduate in Computer Services Management at an institute of technology. I worked in Manchester for 3 months as a business technology consultant and my other experience was in technical accounts for an IT outsourcing company. I applied to all the main graduate management trainee programmes last year (and again this year) but I am not receiving any good feedback about getting interviews and in the last few months I have been applying for anything management or business related just to get experience.

I am getting desperate now because the job seekers isn't covering the loans I took out to complete the MBA and living expenses etc... I am sorry if I sound like I have a celtic cub attitude. At this stage I just want a job that pays well and lets me gain any experience. But I keep being told that I am overqualified or that they have chosen a more experienced candidate for the jobs I am applying for.....

Eventhough my undergrad was a B.Sc. in Computing I have limited programming skills etc as the course was more business orientated so I am limited in the IT jobs I can apply for.

helimachoptor

MonkeyBone wrote: »

I am getting desperate now because the job seekers isn't covering the loans I took out to complete the MBA and living expenses etc... I am sorry if I sound like I have a celtic cub attitude. At this stage I just want a job that pays well and lets me gain any experience. But I keep being told that I am overqualified or that they have chosen a more experienced candidate for the jobs I am applying for.....

Eventhough my undergrad was a B.Sc. in Computing I have limited programming skills etc as the course was more business orientated so I am limited in the IT jobs I can apply for.

You probably are over qualified, but also under experienced and its a hard place to get out of. Are you getting many interviews? You really need to distinguish yourself here, show them you have the skills but arent getting ahead of yourself.

Best of luck mate

3DataModem

I've interviewed a LOT of people, and while an MBA is an excellent qualification, it is really irrelevant without the experience to back it up. I would hesitate in hiring an inexperienced MBA, and generally prefer a Bachelor or Masters for graduate jobs... an MBA takes an entry level job just for experience, and will then move on.

Recruitment is an extremely costly process... last thing an employer wants is someone who is already looking for the next opportunity (which is what I take from your post).

Advice? Focus on convincing employers that you are interested in the job on offer, not a "career" or "learning experience". If you are good (worthy of your MBA) they'll spot your potential.

Good luck.

growler

3DataModem wrote: »

I've interviewed a LOT of people, and while an MBA is an excellent qualification, it is really irrelevant without the experience to back it up. I would hesitate in hiring an inexperienced MBA, and generally prefer a Bachelor or Masters for graduate jobs... an MBA takes an entry level job just for experience, and will then move on.

Recruitment is an extremely costly process... last thing an employer wants is someone who is already looking for the next opportunity (which is what I take from your post).

Advice? Focus on convincing employers that you are interested in the job on offer, not a "career" or "learning experience". If you are good (worthy of your MBA) they'll spot your potential.

Good luck.

same with me, wouldn't dream of hiring an MBA with no experience knowing that they're more likely than most to move on faster , and the lack of experience would be too much of a risk for the business.

You may be better off taking it off your CV

Bugnug

Tough situation to be in and another problem at the moment is that employers have the pick of the bunch as there are so many people out of work, so many quality experienced people. Like the last poster suggested, would you consider taking it of your CV? I have 12 years of work experience behind me and currently studying at night for my business degree. I have had 3 main jobs over the years with some high profile companies and it was experience that got me over the line everytime. The fact that you have taken the approach of trying everything to see what comes back is probably not a great idea either. You would probably be best of focusing your energy on a specific sector and try to target that area. Good Luck.

whoisshe

Any half decent business school will want at least 3 years experience for you to get into their MBA course. Smurfit, Trinity, LSE, LBS etc would not accept in an undergrad without having worked. Honestly, an MBA with no experience is a waste of time. I think the combo of an IT undergrad and an MBA from a mediocre UK uni with no real experiece is the reason you are not getting interviews. Company's in Ireland are looking for Uni rather than IT grads.

Oasis44

Agree with the other posters about taking the MBA off your CV (for now at least)

I was in a similar position to you over the last 12 months ( I have an MBS degree) and after applying for jobs I could have done easily I sussed that the MBS was actually hurting me and I wasn't getting hired because of it (cause they think I will use it as a stop gap and/or move on quicker than lesser educated candidates)

I took it off and got a great job in my target industry quickly enough. Its a bit of joke you have to do this (as its costly and time consuming to get an MBA/MBS) but now that I have good experience to compliment my qualifications I will definitely put it back on my CV the next time I'm job hunting, which hopefully wont be anytime soon.

PeakOutput

i imagine were you got your mba from has a massive part to play aswell some places graduates will be far more prepared for the real world than others

Oasis44

PeakOutput wrote: »

i imagine were you got your mba from has a massive part to play aswell some places graduates will be far more prepared for the real world than others

If a work experience placement was part of the course I would agree

But if not then I wouldn't because at the end of the day subjects like Marketing, Management, Finance etc will be taught the same way in all the colleges i.e. lectures, assignments and exams. Dont see how one college's tuition could prep you any better than another's.

dudara

An MBA is really only worthwhile when backed up with experience. A lot of the good schools won't accept you onto their MBA courses without experience.

You're stuck in a hard place right now - you have a degree from an IT and an MBA pretty much straight after. That's an odd looking combination. The fact that you're not getting anywhere in the management graduate programs for the last 2 years says something (sorry).

PeakOutput

Oasis44 wrote: »

If a work experience placement was part of the course I would agree

any good mba programme will have work placement as part of it imo

But if not then I wouldn't because at the end of the day subjects like Marketing, Management, Finance etc will be taught the same way in all the colleges i.e. lectures, assignments and exams. Dont see how one college's tuition could prep you any better than another's.

thats not true at all there are huge differences between colleges or else there would be no need to rank business schools

Oasis44

[thats not true at all there are huge differences between colleges or else there would be no need to rank business schools[/QUOTE]

Lets be honest this 'ranking' is very much done on a personal snobbery basis by employers i.e. the rationale is that someone who went to a uni is automatically better than a private college person. This is total bs imo and I know what I'm talking about as i have qualifications from both types of colleges. In fact i found my class mates and lecturers to be of a higher standard in the private college than in the uni.

Its crazy that some people who have 2.1's and 1st's from private colleges that are HETAC approved are considered to be inferior candidates to uni grads. I would agree however that colleges whose qualifications are approved by foreign bodies are not worth the paper they're printed on.

At the end of the day I think each candidate should be considered on their personal merits, drive and ambition, as appossed to just the name of the college they went to.

PeakOutput

Oasis44 wrote: »

Lets be honest this 'ranking' is very much done on a personal snobbery basis by employers i.e. the rationale is that someone who went to a uni is automatically better than a private college person. This is total bs imo and I know what I'm talking about as i have qualifications from both types of colleges. In fact i found my class mates and lecturers to be of a higher standard in the private college than in the uni.

Its crazy that some people who have 2.1's and 1st's from private colleges that are HETAC approved are considered to be inferior candidates to uni grads. I would agree however that colleges whose qualifications are approved by foreign bodies are not worth the paper they're printed on.

At the end of the day I think each candidate should be considered on their personal merits, drive and ambition, as appossed to just the name of the college they went to.

im more talking about international rankings like the difference between ucd and harvard ( a private college) say. the idea that every college teaches the same things the same way is just not true thats all im saying.

i say that were you ahve your mba from makes a difference because you can be pretty sure that even someone with no previous experience graduating from a top 50 programme is not having a problem getting employment albeit at a reduced starting salary then they used to be

i dont have an mba (or even my degree yet) but i have been doing alot of research into one to increase my employability after i get my degree and i would not even consider one in ireland tbh, so thats where im coming from

PK2008

You should be applying for a business analyst type role with a consultancy firm. They are very interested in MBA's and may overlook your lack of experience if you are willing to start from entry level (which you should because you make no mistake you are entry level).

As others have said, you should really have known before you applied for an MBA that it is a general management qualification which usually requires a certain amount of experience.

Not trying to offend you or anything but alot of people think the MBA is a golden ticket and so they just try to leap frog over the very obvious need for experience, but in general mangement experience is everything. Im suprised the college actually let you on the course without a minimum of experience.

PK2008

Ranking is very important, most top global employers will not hire outside of the top 100 and its not becuase of snobbery its because of quality. These top schools are not the top schools for no reason. They are the top because they are the best, have the best lecturers, have proven histories of successful alumni and they attract the best students. Thats just a reality.

Now Im sure there are alot of individuals who went to low ranked schools who are more intelligent than individuals who went to high ranked schools but for the most part the best and brightest go to the top schools and so are targetted by the top companies.

Nolanger

Oasis44 wrote: »

I took it off and got a great job in my target industry quickly enough. Its a bit of joke you have to do this (as its costly and time consuming to get an MBA/MBS) but now that I have good experience to compliment my qualifications I will definitely put it back on my CV the next time I'm job hunting, which hopefully wont be anytime soon.

You were right to take it off teh CV as it's sad to have that qualification and yet not know the difference between complement and compliment :rolleyes:

finisklin

How about reconsidering the UK? Maybe looking at opportunties for 3 days a week out of 5 that might suit your circumstances and hop over to gain the experience. I appreciate this is not ideal, it does get you experience and if the company has an Irish base it may lead to something this side of the water.

Stay focussed and be clear on the type of roles your interested in.....suited to your experience, career path.

Hope it works out.

PK2008

Nolanger wrote: »

You were right to take it off teh CV as it's sad to have that qualification and yet not know the difference between complement and compliment :rolleyes:

Almost as bad as misspelling; 'the', right? :rolleyes:

MonkeyBone

I just want to thank everyone for their opinions/advice and I am sorry that I did not clarify some of my details from the original thread I posted.

I started college when I was 16 and did my 4 years, I then did the MBA for 2+ years after a years work experience. I would have done it straight away but the course would not let me on it without some experience regardless of how high my results were in the previous course. It is a reputable MBA and myself and some others were allowed to attend given our accumulation of work experience, work experience while doing it and high marks from our previous studies. I don't mean it to sound like I am some kind of genius but rather I enjoyed what I studied, I worked hard and was proficient at preparing for exams and assignments.

I am grateful for the advice guys and it has really helped a lot. I guess I allowed myself to become too insulated in the college bubble wrap and needed a reality check. I think that over the last few months I have been fooling myself, by that I mean that I thought that academic criteria was the only thing I needed to get my foot in the door but now I realise that I needed to build up actual long term experience (by that I mean more then 12 months in a particular job). If I could do it all again I guess I would have worked straight after my undergraduate but I wanted to pursue a more business orientated area instead of going into an IT job.

I am just finding it easier to get interviews abroad then in Ireland for the last 9 months and it is getting frustrating. Given my personal circumstances I will be in Ireland for the foreseeable future but I will remain optimistic. As the saying goes " a little common sense goes a long way" so thanks for the advice everyone, it really is appreciated.

I am trying for some internships at the moment but I am still hoping that I will get one of the graduate programmes so fingers crossed.

shoegirl

MonkeyBone wrote: »

I did my undergraduate in Computer Services Management at an institute of technology. I worked in Manchester for 3 months as a business technology consultant and my other experience was in technical accounts for an IT outsourcing company. I applied to all the main graduate management trainee programmes last year (and again this year) but I am not receiving any good feedback about getting interviews and in the last few months I have been applying for anything management or business related just to get experience.

3 months is a very small amount of experience! Generally most people who would go and do an MBA would tend to have 5+ plus years of middle to senior level management experience. Its unfortunate that they didn't give you better advice before you signed onto the course.

Definitely try applying for more entry level or graduate positions which don't expect experience - it sounds like you are applying for middle level roles which I hate to tell you this - but I've seen companies hire people for these jobs with 10 years plus experience and no qualificiations at all, and often they are the people who could be making the decision about you later on.

3DataModem

MonkeyBone wrote: »

Given my personal circumstances I will be in Ireland for the foreseeable future .

Do you mind me asking, what personal circumstances have you restricting yourself to Ireland?

If you are employable, now is a great opportunity to get some international experience.

MonkeyBone

3DataModem wrote: »

Do you mind me asking, what personal circumstances have you restricting yourself to Ireland?

If you are employable, now is a great opportunity to get some international experience.

I guess there is no harm in saying it but I will remain a little vague because I don't like giving out too much info online. One of my parents fell ill quite quickly and passed away in January and as I am an only child I don't want to leave my other parent alone as they are quite elderly. I am only 24 but they had me quite late in life. As childish as the fear may sound, I just don't want to be abroad again if anything happens. If I am in Ireland at least I am only a few hours away if needed etc...

I realise there are great opportunities abroad, particularly at entry level etc and at any other time I would jump at the opportunities like the rest of my class. It may sound like I am copping out but the emotional duress of anything else happening outweighs this and I would prefer to stay in Ireland.

maninasia

PK2008 wrote: »

Ranking is very important, most top global employers will not hire outside of the top 100 and its not becuase of snobbery its because of quality. These top schools are not the top schools for no reason. They are the top because they are the best, have the best lecturers, have proven histories of successful alumni and they attract the best students. Thats just a reality.

Now Im sure there are alot of individuals who went to low ranked schools who are more intelligent than individuals who went to high ranked schools but for the most part the best and brightest go to the top schools and so are targetted by the top companies.

That's why most of the Wall Street heads and bankers came from those schools, yeah they really got a good education.

An MBA is just an academic qualification (a spurious one at that), you need to learn in the real world on the job and also read independently.

PK2008

maninasia wrote: »

That's why most of the Wall Street heads and bankers came from those schools, yeah they really got a good education.

An MBA is just an academic qualification (a spurious one at that), you need to learn in the real world on the job and also read independently.

I never said you needed an MBA to be successful, just that it helps getting jobs with the top employers- which it does. But yes, experience counts for much more than a piece of paper, however theres no doubt an MBA can open the door for you. Ideally top employers like both

maninasia

'Best and brightest' should be replaced by 'those with stacks of cash' to buy a degree....let's be honest about this. George Bush has an MBA from Yale. It is not that hard to get into those programs if you have the money and a couple of years of experience. I think it's more a class selection thing..trying to find people from the right background more than anything...also a type of indoctrination. I never really go that because it doesn't actually select for people with the ability to make it without a lot of money.
Perhaps it's more about networking and hoping to meet some well off folk who can give you a leg up.

Plus the best and brightest don't neccessarily study for an MBA..which is not a challenge compared to a PhD in just about anything.

PK2008

maninasia wrote: »

'Best and brightest' should be replaced by 'those with stacks of cash' to buy a degree....let's be honest about this. George Bush has an MBA from Yale. It is not that hard to get into those programs if you have the money and a couple of years of experience. I think it's more a class selection thing..trying to find people from the right background more than anything...also a type of indoctrination. I never really go that because it doesn't actually select for people with the ability to make it without a lot of money.
Perhaps it's more about networking and hoping to meet some well off folk who can give you a leg up.

Plus the best and brightest don't neccessarily study for an MBA..which is not a challenge compared to a PhD in just about anything.

They defintely are expensive but then its all about supply and demand. The top schools can charge top dollar just as the top car manufacturers can, or the top restaraunts or the top anything.

Whatever your personal view of MBA's are the fact is alot of top companies want MBA graduates from the top schools. Life's a beach mate

InReality

Tailor your CV for the job. In this case the MBA may be putting employers off so best to remove it.For 99% of people the first "proper" job is always tricky to get.

cerebus

maninasia wrote: »

George Bush has an MBA from Yale.

I think it was HBS, as far as I know - Yale SOM was founded in 1976 I think, while Bush graduated from HBS in 1975.

maninasia wrote: »

Plus the best and brightest don't neccessarily study for an MBA..which is not a challenge compared to a PhD in just about anything.

I have experienced both, got a PhD from a good research group in the UK, just about to graduate with an MBA from a top US school. The two experiences have been very different, but I can tell you that the MBA has been very challenging. Lots of smart people in my MBA program, all of whom excel in lots of other areas as well (classmates include world-class athletes, entrepreneurs with successful exits, non-profit founders, all types).

maninasia wrote: »

I never really go that because it doesn't actually select for people with the ability to make it without a lot of money.

Have to say I disagree - having been through a good MBA program, and then involved with admissions for the MBA program this year, the top schools select some very talented individuals. There may be a proportion of people with family/money connections, but I can tell you that as a muck savage from the west of Ireland I certainly don't have them

maninasia

Please explain, why is it a 'top' MBA school? Is it because they select 'talented individuals', maybe you have got it the wrong way around but what does one learn on an MBA, I am intrigued.
BTW, what % paid full whack and how much were the fees? Maybe everybody would be better off joining a talented persons club instead of shelling out for the priviledge.

The reason why I don't have much time for MBAs is I have seen too many cases of very very badly run companies with top tier MBA management over the last few years, the MBA is supposed to make you a good business leader but it doesn't seem to do that ...very short-term thinking.

maninasia

PK2008 wrote: »

They defintely are expensive but then its all about supply and demand. The top schools can charge top dollar just as the top car manufacturers can, or the top restaraunts or the top anything.

Whatever your personal view of MBA's are the fact is alot of top companies want MBA graduates from the top schools. Life's a beach mate

I know they want them and can see their career value for large corporations, I just don't see their education and business value.

maninasia

cerebus wrote: »

I think it was HBS, as far as I know - Yale SOM was founded in 1976 I think, while Bush graduated from HBS in 1975.



I have experienced both, got a PhD from a good research group in the UK, just about to graduate with an MBA from a top US school. The two experiences have been very different, but I can tell you that the MBA has been very challenging. Lots of smart people in my MBA program, all of whom excel in lots of other areas as well (classmates include world-class athletes, entrepreneurs with successful exits, non-profit founders, all types).



Have to say I disagree - having been through a good MBA program, and then involved with admissions for the MBA program this year, the top schools select some very talented individuals. There may be a proportion of people with family/money connections, but I can tell you that as a muck savage from the west of Ireland I certainly don't have them

You aren't a muck savage with your PhD though are you.Why did the non-profit and atheletic people join such a program?

PK2008

maninasia wrote: »

I know they want them and can see their career value for large corporations, I just don't see their education and business value.

I think you might be better off starting a thread on the general question of the value of MBA's rather than hijacking the OP's thread but I would say that the MBA does not 'turn people into business leaders' it is simply a course that gives people training on general management principles. Management and business leadership is more of an art than a science, the MBA, like most postgraduate courses, is simply a structured approach to challenging an individual to think aand act in academic business situations. Through this experience the indiviudal learns both soft and hard skills. Soft kills being communication with diverse people, working in teams, building consensus, negotiating techniques etc etc. The hard skills may be more focussed on methodologies for project management, performance management, business analysis etc etc. Giving the individual exposure to executives, real world projects, and team based solution creation projects allows the individual to also learn alot about themselves.

While an individual may pass the course and recieve their MBA, it remains up to that indiviudal to then apply what they learned in the real world. The MBA probably does gain too much respect because alot of the people who undertake it are already high achievers anyway, so it becomes a kind of self-fulfilling prophecy in a way (i.e. it is likely the indiviudal was already a leader, entrpreneur, high achiever, etc before signing on for the MBA)- for these people, the MBA is just another tool for them, it is not necessarily the making of them and these are the people that top schools target. Im sure there are thousands of individual examples of people who to prove or disprove the idea that an MBA = Success but if that is your view of the MBA than its already flawed, the MBA is simply an academic course which seeks to nurture the individuals talent and leadership potential, it is always up to the indiviudal though.

maninasia

Thanks for reasoned explanation, didn't want to come off too harsh. I would study financial or other specialist master's degree first myself to add to business skills in a concrete way.

PK2008

maninasia wrote: »

Thanks for reasoned explanation, didn't want to come off too harsh. I would study financial or other specialist master's degree first myself to add to business skills in a concrete way.

Yes the people who benefit alot from MBA's tend to be people who have specialised in an area for a number of years and now want to make the transition to a senior management role. Often the person has deep knowledge of their particular field but Senior Management requires a more holistic view of the business, industry,market place and people management. This is what the MBA tries to provide. It is expensive but then it isnt really designed for young students, its designed for people who have already built careers (usually those at manager level or on the cusp).

PeakOutput

maninasia wrote: »

'Best and brightest' should be replaced by 'those with stacks of cash' to buy a degree....let's be honest about this. George Bush has an MBA from Yale. It is not that hard to get into those programs if you have the money and a couple of years of experience. I think it's more a class selection thing..trying to find people from the right background more than anything...also a type of indoctrination. I never really go that because it doesn't actually select for people with the ability to make it without a lot of money.
Perhaps it's more about networking and hoping to meet some well off folk who can give you a leg up.

Plus the best and brightest don't neccessarily study for an MBA..which is not a challenge compared to a PhD in just about anything.

im sorry but you are wrong

the top business schools in the states (harvard, mit,stanford, chicago etc) have less than 10% acceptance rates no matter how much money you have. if you get in you will ahve no trouble at all getting a loan because the average starting salary coming out of one of thses is more than 100K+ a year(mit's is around 160K a year iirc)

their gmat scores vary a little but average around 720(out of 800) iirc thats the 95th percentile on average

in general you need a first class honours degree to apply unless you have very good work experience

and even if you have all the above you are not guaranteed entry only consideration and they all expect two personal essays and an interview

clearly not all the best an brightest study mba's in these school but the ones that do are definitely in the group of best and brightest

the top employers know this which is why they offer such a premium starting salary to get these graduates, if they werent seeing return on their investment they wouldnt be paying it, this isnt the public sector after all

i am only talking about the top schools here i am very very skeptical about mba's in places like ucd etc

PeakOutput

cerebus wrote: »

Have to say I disagree - having been through a good MBA program, and then involved with admissions for the MBA program this year, the top schools select some very talented individuals. There may be a proportion of people with family/money connections, but I can tell you that as a muck savage from the west of Ireland I certainly don't have them

i dont know if you post around here much but id love to talk to you about your experience with an mba in the states im seriously considering it

cerebus

PeakOutput wrote: »

i dont know if you post around here much but id love to talk to you about your experience with an mba in the states im seriously considering it

PM sent!

maninasia

Scores can be gamed, get grinds etc...essays/interviews..well they will look for certain type of people I guess. Just silly really as the value of this degree has never really been proved.

Oasis44

Nolanger wrote: »

You were right to take it off teh CV as it's sad to have that qualification and yet not know the difference between complement and compliment :rolleyes:

Says your man.............teh!!!

brndonnie

I posted the below in another thread but this thread looks more applicable. Hope you guys can help!!



I have just begun the long process of applying for an MBA by opening the books for the GMAT. However Im hoping to get some advice on this thread on other parts of the application particularly letters of recommendations and the actually essays the schools require you to answer.

By way of background have a very good 2.1 from UCD followed up with MSc in Finance from a prestigious London school. I worked in Investment Banking (Lehman!!) for 3+ years before being made redundant. Came back to Ireland, setup business and sold it within 18 months for profit. Since then have been working with an Irish charity on online strategy.

Im intending on applying to the top 5 in Europe and the U.S so any help, recommendations even brute honesty would be great from those who have been through the process.

Thanks