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TD backgrounds

  • 31-03-2010 12:08pm
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,050 ✭✭✭✭


    In Germany the sytem is set up so that a normal joe can stand for election and function as a member of parliament. His employer is bound by law to keep his position open for him for as long as he is a polititcian. The purpose of this law is expressly to allow ordinary joes the practical chance to serve their country in a political role.

    Does such a law exist in Ireland? I know for example that many politicians (Kenny, Dempsey etc.) are teachers and their positions are held open. Is it just former public servants who have this luxury? If so, I would imagine it leads to a distortion of the demographics in Dail Eireann witha much higher percentage of public servants than private sector employees in there.

    We all know that there are plenty of private sector types who we could do without making our laws (Auctioneers, publicans etc.) but these are generally business owners who can afford to "take time out" to work as politicians (feathering their own nests as well no doubt).

    So is there any info about these TDs and what they did before politics? I'd be interested to get the breakdown and see what percentage come from the ordinary private sector employee class.


Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,672 ✭✭✭anymore


    murphaph wrote: »
    In Germany the sytem is set up so that a normal joe can stand for election and function as a member of parliament. His employer is bound by law to keep his position open for him for as long as he is a polititcian. The purpose of this law is expressly to allow ordinary joes the practical chance to serve their country in a political role.

    Does such a law exist in Ireland? I know for example that many politicians (Kenny, Dempsey etc.) are teachers and their positions are held open. Is it just former public servants who have this luxury? If so, I would imagine it leads to a distortion of the demographics in Dail Eireann witha much higher percentage of public servants than private sector employees in there.

    We all know that there are plenty of private sector types who we could do without making our laws (Auctioneers, publicans etc.) but these are generally business owners who can afford to "take time out" to work as politicians (feathering their own nests as well no doubt).

    So is there any info about these TDs and what they did before politics? I'd be interested to get the breakdown and see what percentage come from the ordinary private sector employee class.
    Look at their websites, look at the Dail Register of Interests - Google it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,900 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    murphaph wrote: »
    Does such a law exist in Ireland?

    no
    Is it just former public servants who have this luxury? If so, I would imagine it leads to a distortion of the demographics in Dail Eireann witha much higher percentage of public servants than private sector employees in there.


    only teachers asfaik

    for example civil servants must resign just in order to run for election never mind take up a seat as a TD


    So is there any info about these TDs and what they did before politics? I'd be interested to get the breakdown and see what percentage come from the ordinary private sector employee class.


    from Sunday Business Post
    Teachers again dominate the ranks of the 29th Dáil, with 28 members of the profession among the 166 deputies who will take their seats when the new Dáil meets for the first time next Thursday.

    The number represents a slight decline from the previous Dáil, although it is significantly ahead of business-men (20) and farmers (18).

    This Dáil shows a notable increase in the number of businessmen returned, and the number quoted above does not include two undertakers and a pharmacist. A survey following the general election in 1997 showed that only seven TDs described their occupation as `businessman', although that number did not include a number of specified businesses, such as publicans.

    A further 16 TDs worked in businesses or corporations as senior managers, accountants or other `higher professionals', the most well-known of these is the Taoiseach. A similar number worked as `lower professionals' such as clerks. Caoimghin O Caoláin of Sinn Féin is the sole bank manager.

    Lawyers are well represented with 13 solicitors or barristers, although this represents a decline of three from the last Dáil. There are five lecturers and six doctors in the new Dáil, and three former union officials.

    Eighteen members of the new Dáil come from `public affairs' backgrounds -- either working as advisers or assistants to public figures in the past. These include Fiona O'Malley and MJ Nolan. Some list their professions as "full-time public representatives". Others, such as Denis Naughten who was nominated to the Seanad while still a student (following the untimely death of his father) have never been anything else but a TD. A number of successful candidates in this election -- such as Sinn Féin's Martin Ferris -- worked solely as councillors in the years preceding the election, a new departure in political life.

    There are five engineers or architects in the new Dáil. Only two journalists made it to Leinster House, but they are in greater supply than social workers, of whom there is only one. There is also only one economist. Laboratory technicians are also represented -- there are three of them -- whereas the number of psychiatric nurses (one) seems on the low side.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 852 ✭✭✭moonpurple


    murphaph wrote: »
    In Germany the sytem is set up so that a normal joe can stand for election and function as a member of parliament. His employer is bound by law to keep his position open for him for as long as he is a polititcian. The purpose of this law is expressly to allow ordinary joes the practical chance to serve their country in a political role.

    very good idea, let us import their political innovations because we are happy to import their other successful innovations called german designed cars

    :cool:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


    murphaph wrote: »
    Is it just former public servants who have this luxury?
    Riskymove wrote: »

    only teachers asfaik

    And RTE personalities :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,241 ✭✭✭baalthor


    Jason O Mahony made the interesting observation that Gormley and Ryan are the only cabinet members that have any experience of running a business!


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    I imagine the high number of teachers indicates that job security and/or time play a big part in people's desire to run for election.

    That is, if you can take a career break with a guaranteed position when you return, or if you have huge amounts of holiday time during the year, then you are better able to get into political life.

    Joe Soap who works 11 months of the year, 9am - 6pm and who would have to quit their job to get a career break, simply has too many barriers against getting into politics.

    Other professions which are represented quite strongly in there - solicitors, accountants & doctors are professions where you can build up the money to take extended career breaks or cut back on your workload to facilitate political life.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,925 ✭✭✭aidan24326


    baalthor wrote: »
    Jason O Mahony made the interesting observation that Gormley and Ryan are the only cabinet members that have any experience of running a business!

    Half of the present cabinet are teachers. Obviously politics and macro-economics must be on the curriculum in St.Pats and Mary I these days!

    But seriously, I think murphaph has a point. If a teacher's job is kept open for them, it's hardly surprising that teachers would be in a good position to run for election, knowing they can walk straight back to the day job if politics doesn't work out. Not only that, but they can also claim the surplus on their teaching salary. i.e if my replacement teacher, probably being more junior, is being paid x amount less than I was, I can cream off the x amount on top of my already generous pay and very generous expenses as a TD. That used to be the case anyway, I don't know if they changed it or not. To say that's taking the p1ss is an understatment.

    How did teachers come to have such a priveleged positon in the Irish Political System? And why have we a government cabinet controlled by them? I don't mean to denigrate the teaching profession, they (mostly) do a decent job within their own sphere. But who decided they should be running the country?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,808 ✭✭✭Ste.phen


    aidan24326 wrote: »
    Not only that, but they can also claim the surplus on their teaching salary. i.e if my replacement teacher, probably being more junior, is being paid x amount less than I was, I can cream off the x amount on top of my already generous pay and very generous expenses as a TD. That used to be the case anyway, I don't know if they changed it or not.

    I believe this has been changed, but I'm not sure about when / by whom it was changed.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,219 ✭✭✭The_Honeybadger


    aidan24326 wrote: »
    Half of the present cabinet are teachers. Obviously politics and macro-economics must be on the curriculum in St.Pats and Mary I these days!

    But seriously, I think murphaph has a point. If a teacher's job is kept open for them, it's hardly surprising that teachers would be in a good position to run for election, knowing they can walk straight back to the day job if politics doesn't work out. Not only that, but they can also claim the surplus on their teaching salary. i.e if my replacement teacher, probably being more junior, is being paid x amount less than I was, I can cream off the x amount on top of my already generous pay and very generous expenses as a TD. That used to be the case anyway, I don't know if they changed it or not. To say that's taking the p1ss is an understatment.

    How did teachers come to have such a priveleged positon in the Irish Political System? And why have we a government cabinet controlled by them? I don't mean to denigrate the teaching profession, they (mostly) do a decent job within their own sphere. But who decided they should be running the country?
    Teacher TD's are no longer allowed claim the surplus on their salary, but their pension entitlements continue to grow while they are absent from the profession. Having half our cabinet as ex-teachers says alot. The h.dip does not prepare somebody to run a government department surely :eek:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,900 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    Riskymove wrote: »

    And RTE personalities :)

    slightly different for him, it was afaik a time limited option to this May for him to return, not open-eneded

    But who decided they should be running the country?

    the people who elected them:pac:

    when's the last time you looked into someone's previous career history when decididng who to vote for in an election? I wouldn't think it was that frequent.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,235 ✭✭✭lugha


    I would think such a system (reserve previous jobs for political office holders) would be redundant or possibly even counter-productive. It is certainly sensible that we should have people in government and even in the Dail who are accomplished in their own field, especially in areas of business/enterprise and management. But if they are seriously capable, then they quite probably are not working for someone else in the first place, and if they are, then the shouldn't have any great difficulty securing new employment when their stint in public office ends.
    No, I think someone who is likely to have trouble persuading any employer that they are worth a punt as an employee wouldn't quite measure up to what I would hope for in a public office holder.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,925 ✭✭✭aidan24326


    when's the last time you looked into someone's previous career history when decididng who to vote for in an election? I wouldn't think it was that frequent.

    Maybe we should do in future. However, you can only vote for one of the people on the ballot sheet. I'm sure we all have ideas of people who could do a good job in politics, but if their name isn't on the voting list then that's of little use.

    What we need is a radical shift away from the 'name recognition' voting that has characterised our governments up to now, especially Fianna Fail. I get elected just because my daddy was a TD. That needs to change, and we will never have a properly competent and representative parliament until it does. You look at someone like Mary Coughlan. I know she's an easy target these days, but she only got elected in the first place because of her family connections. And I think it's fair to say that she does not appear to have what it takes to hold a senior government position. And I could have said that less kindly.

    And she's by no means alone. There's a good number of of TDs in Leinster House who only got in because of family connections. Cowen himself is just one other high-profile example.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,103 ✭✭✭doc_17


    I agree teachers are over represented. Some good points were made as to why this is - job held open- time off etc. here's two more reasons. They meet parents up to 5 times a year at PT meetings, that's a lot of personal connections they are making with the local (voting) community. Also because they are teachers (being trained on how to reach and entertain a disinterested audience) they are probably better communicators and can deliver their message more effectively and eloquently to their target audience.

    But just to clear up a point, teachers don't control cabinet, solictors do. The 2 brians are solicitors and they control the cabinet. Mary Coughlan is a social worker who AFAIK never did any social work!

    there should be a law to make them give up their jobs if they are returned for a second 5 year term. And if a job come up if they lose their seat surely their experience will give them a good chance of getting it


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,050 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Thanks for the Tribune piece Riskymove.

    I think 28/166 or just shy of 17% of our TDs coming from a teaching background is too much, and as pointed out, they make up half the cabinet!! :eek:

    I am quite sure the free time afforded by teaching and the guarantee of employment for teacher TDs skews the figures heavily. I would be against removing this entitlement as that would leave us with an even more unrepresentative Dail (even more publicans and solicitors and fewer teachers would hardly be good for the general public).

    I think something needs to be done though to encourage ordinary men and women (be they factory workers or engineers and scientists) to get into politics and make a positive contribution. There are simply too many vested interests in Leinster House and we as an electorate do not look deeply enough into it. I don't want more unrealistic far left union types either, just normal people with common sense, preferably with a decent enough education but if someone is smart without a formal education then that's just fine too.

    I would not like to see professions banned or anything like it either, if someone is good and has the contry's interests at heart then they shouldn't be penalised for being in a profession, BUT the mix in Dail Eireann is very poor as far as I can see and fairly unrepresantitive of the public (17% teachers and heap of solicitors and publicans).

    I think our country would be better and people would feel a closer connection to politics (apathy is a cancer we can do without) and feel that they could make a difference. I am not for a Dail full of independents either, I would like ordinary people to form or join (and change) parties that they feel a close enough affinity to. We need strong government, not a load of single issue independents. I have already stated to this end that I would be in favour of a PR List system being introduced (FG have propsed a partial introduction of same which is the best we can hope for in the short term, one would hope the initial 20 list TDs would be expanded with each Dail)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,050 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    doc_17 wrote: »
    Also because they are teachers (being trained on how to reach and entertain a disinterested audience) they are probably better communicators and can deliver their message more effectively and eloquently to their target audience.

    Enda-sm.jpg

    Noel+Dempsey.jpg

    Erm....sorry doc, couldn't resist. I don't think that bit has anything to do with it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,103 ✭✭✭doc_17


    Good one! But I have to believe that you get the government you deserve. But these people win elections on a disproportionate scale. I'd say the first point I made might have more to do with it though!


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