Expenses for Amateur Players?

ShriekingSheet

In the run up to the West of Ireland C'ship, I'm interested to know what support is offered to players in these events from their club. I know some clubs cover food and accomodation for players, who return their receipts. Other clubs do nothing.

This would obviously be a small expense for many clubs with one good guy of scratch or better, but would be a bigger deal for clubs with a few top players.

Is it common practice for expenses to be paid these days? Or is it just a lucky few with backing?

And what do the general members make of this?

f22

I think it's pretty common in alot of clubs. My own club funds our elite players, accomodation, food, travel etc. (not gargle because they would be bankrupt).

Proper order too!

ShriekingSheet

Yeah, while I don't go along with the rather fluffy argument that clubs benefit from having their name in brackets beside a player on the timesheet or scoreboard of the West, I do fully believe backing guys trying to cut it at this level is a good thing.

It irks me a little bit though, to hear such players make a case for themselves that the few hundred quid (or more) it costs clubs to pay someone around the events is a sound investment, from which clubs reap all sorts of benefits. There's usually some tenuous link to "marketing & promotion" or "raising the profile of the club" thrown in. That's slightly boll*x in my view.

If a player starts in a club, shoots 50 points off a 20 h'cap, gets chopped lower and lower, members marvel at his/her progress, enjoy playing with them, use them to brutalise a few guys in Metro and Junior Cup, and then get good enough to qualify for championships... I think any club would be proud to asist in such a player's progress and throw them a few quid. I think over the years of the players progress, the club has someone that really adds to things. That's why i think backing someone is good.

I've played in a club with a proper world class amateur, and another where the gross in the medal would be won by a 5 h'capper who had a reasonable day, and there is a big difference for the members. Sadly, I hear from relations in Dublin club with an abundance of talent at a high level, that the elite players barely acknowledge the ordinary members. I think the least a club (= the members btw) could expect for their few quid is politeness. All it takes is a "yeah I'm good cheers, looking forward to the West", and the member will be pleased as punch to "know" a top guy. I thought Lowry playing in the mixed foursomes at Esker Hills was a good example. He most likely got a lot from the club, and fair play to him for giving a number of members a story to tell, of the day they played a match against him.

Am I being unreasonable here? Possibly. I could be very wrong in some of my points. But I'm certain it's a little talked about aspect of a lot of golf clubs that has some misconceptions around it, so would be interested in people's views.

stockdam

For individuals going to a competition then they should not get any expenses. They are not representing their club so the club should not subsidise them.

There's nothing to stop individuals within a club having a whipround but the money should come from their pockets and not the club.

f22

Indirectly they are representing their club, it goes beside their name on the draw sheet and results. In my opinion it also raises the profile of a club to have their players do well in championships, aswell as play at interprovincial or international level.

As Sheet pointed out, if you take you should be prepared to give back to the club too. Players considering themselves above other members purely because they play golf to a far higher level is pathetic in my book. It doesn't take much to be civil to people who show an interest in the achievevements of a player they helped to fund.

Swingguru

I think its good for the moral and standing of clubs to have a player playing in the provincial competitions. It adds interest to the general membership, and a few quid makes a big difference to the guy who maybe won't win the comp but is there for the experience.
The top guys however are all funded pretty heavily by the GUI elite program. Somewhere in the region of €15k per annum plus their 'sponsors' such as club manufacturers etc. The likes of Cutler, Dunbar, Lernihan me thinks won't be worrying too much about a few quid from their clubs.
Good luck to all in the West. Hope the snow goes away!

thegen

Not sure where I stand on this one. I do feel clubs should assist their flute players but it is also important to acknowledge the ordinary club member. It was pointed out before regarding Lowry playing mixed was a good example, I agree. Anyway best of luck to all in ghe west, expensed or not.

stockdam

f22 wrote: »

Indirectly they are representing their club, it goes beside their name on the draw sheet and results. In my opinion it also raises the profile of a club to have their players do well in championships, aswell as play at interprovincial or international level.

I don't agree. How much revenue would come back into a club just because of the "raised profile"? I'd suggest very little if anything. Anyone who is already good enough can and often does transfer to a club with a good record (strong senior cup team) and a good and challenging course. The average punter who keeps the club going doesn't care that much about it - yes they like the idea but it's not going to change any of their decisions. Outsiders want to play the course because of its reputation and not because somebody won the West etc.

Mister Sifter

stockdam wrote: »

I don't agree. How much revenue would come back into a club just because of the "raised profile"? I'd suggest very little if anything. Anyone who is already good enough can and often does transfer to a club with a good record (strong senior cup team) and a good and challenging course. The average punter who keeps the club going doesn't care that much about it - yes they like the idea but it's not going to change any of their decisions. Outsiders want to play the course because of its reputation and not because somebody won the West etc.

I'm not sure i agree. As someone relatively new to Irish golf courses i probably wouldn'y know a thing about Esker Hills if it wasn't for Shane Lowry. I think it's fair to say he put that course on the map (even before his Irish Open exploits). Similarly, Dara Lernihan at Castle. When i think of that course it's his name that comes to mind. For a long time I knew nothing of the course other than the fact he played there and strangely i think it elevated my opinion of it in my own mind.

f22

stockdam wrote: »

I don't agree. How much revenue would come back into a club just because of the "raised profile"? I'd suggest very little if anything. Anyone who is already good enough can and often does transfer to a club with a good record (strong senior cup team) and a good and challenging course. The average punter who keeps the club going doesn't care that much about it - yes they like the idea but it's not going to change any of their decisions. Outsiders want to play the course because of its reputation and not because somebody won the West etc.

I would disagree with you there too, let's take the first page of the betting for the West of Ireland as an example (English players excluded). Would you consider all the clubs on this list to be prestigious? How many figure regularly in Senior Cup/Barton Shield? They are without doubt in a large minority. Also, by profile I didn't mean increased revenue.

Paul Cutler (Portstewart) 11/1
Paul Dunne (Greystones) 16/1
Dara Lernihan (The Castle) 20/1
Cian Curley (Newlands) 20/1
Alan Dunbar (Rathmore) 22/1
Andrew Hogan (Newlands) 28/1
Eoin Arthurs (Forrest Little) 28/1
Pat Murray (Limerick) 33/1
Rory Leonard (Banbridge) 33/1
David Kernohan (Galgorm Castle) 35/1
Michael Durcan (Co. Sligo) 40/1
Des Morgan (Mullingar) 40/1
Gary McDermott (Co. Sligo) 40/1
Joe Lyons (Galway) 40/1
Nicky Grant (Knock) 40/1
R. J. Cannon (L'town & B'town) 40/1
Conor Doran (Banbridge) 40/1
Kelan McDonagh (Athlone/NUIM) 45/1
Rory McNamara (Headfort) 45/1
Darren Crowe (Dunmurry) 50/1
Barry Anderson (Co. Sligo) 50/1
Tommy McGowan (Strandhill) 50/1
James Monaghan (The Island) 50/1
Luke Lennox (Moyola Park) 50/1
Michael Sinclair (Knock) 50/1
Neil Gorey (Lee Valley) 50/1
Chris Selfridge (Moyola Park) 60/1
Reeve Whitson (Mourne) 60/1

ShriekingSheet

I have to say, I disagree with f22 and sifter's point that there's any real benefit to a club in having it's name in brackets after even, say, a Walker Cup player. I just think 'raising of profile' or putting a course 'on the map' is fairly notional. The coverage EH got circa Lowry's win is unfair to cite as a 'maybe we'll get this in return', everytime a club funds a player.

But I do totally agree that the collective backing an individual or two is an admirable tradition of the sport, and should be kept if possible. Stockdam says he disagrees, but admits that it's ok for a group of guys to have a whip-round, seperately from club business. Well I say it's crucial that clubs are kept as 'a group of golfers' who take a punt on a fellow member, rather than start being a 'business' that won't invest because the figures don't stack up. A club is just a group of golfers, and it's little things like this that make a club a club. I'm not saying forgo the bar staff's wages to fund a scratch golfer, but where possible, it's not a big deal to put one euro per member per year into helping a guy out.

Interesting that the Castle don't. Though they have so many boys, youths and mens players, and some mercenaries now and then it would be huge money to fund them all. To their credit, in a seperate thing, but along similar lines as the 'club' point I made, their membership fee letter last year came with an enclosed note saying that if members were finding it difficult to pay, not to worry, and that club members with relevent experience have offered their financial service FOC and in complete confidence, as well as an aid fund to ensure all members cope with tough times. Now that's a club.

jimjo

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

To their credit, in a seperate thing, but along similar lines as the 'club' point I made, their membership fee letter last year came with an enclosed note saying that if members were finding it difficult to pay, not to worry, and that club members with relevent experience have offered their financial service FOC and in complete confidence, as well as an aid fund to ensure all members cope with tough times. Now that's a club.

Noticed that on their website earlier today, couldn’t believe it really. Commendable is say the least. In a way it dismisses the notion of a big wealth metropolitan club not caring about its members, you would expect this type of support more in a club down the country where everyone knows everyone type of place. Really got to take your hat off to them. Hope other clubs follow suit.

f22

Hats off indeed, and at opposite ends of the spectrum to an illustrious north Dublin club that have levied members 7k (albeit with the option to pay over 10 years)

oceanfish2008

On a slightly different note: Is anyone aware what the situation is in clubs who have an International as a member - if its normal for the club to offer them Honorary membership, or would the club give it to them if asked by the International?

f22

oceanfish2008 wrote: »

On a slightly different note: Is anyone aware what the situation is in clubs who have an International as a member - if its normal for the club to offer them Honorary membership, or would the club give it to them if asked by the International?

It is in mine, not sure of others

stockdam

f22 wrote: »

Would you consider all the clubs on this list to be prestigious? How many figure regularly in Senior Cup/Barton Shield?

I can only answer for the Northern Ireland clubs and say that they are all well known clubs. None of them are small (well Mourne may be a small club but they play on the most famous links course). I doubt if anyone will read this list and say "wow I must play Moyola Park".


Using Shane Lowry or Rory McIllroy isn't a good example as these guys are one in 10,000 good players. They also are well funded when it's obvious they are special. For the "ordinary" scratch player, he is not going to bring any real kudos for the club. Each one of them is playing in the West for their own reasons and they are not representing the club.

The other problem is where do you draw the line? Personally I would rather see the money spent on coaching kids or learners rather than on individuals who choose to play in events away from their home club.

ShriekingSheet

stockdam wrote: »

I can only answer for the Northern Ireland clubs and say that they are all well known clubs. None of them are small (well Mourne may be a small club but they play on the most famous links course). I doubt if anyone will read this list and say "wow I must play Moyola Park".

Using Shane Lowry or Rory McIllroy isn't a good example as these guys are one in 10,000 good players. They also are well funded when it's obvious they are special. For the "ordinary" scratch player, he is not going to bring any real kudos for the club. Each one of them is playing in the West for their own reasons and they are not representing the club.

The other problem is where do you draw the line? Personally I would rather see the money spent on coaching kids or learners rather than on individuals who choose to play in events away from their home club.

I'm totally with you on the first two paragraphs. The origins of the tradition are unlikely to be clubs using the "sponsorship" as a marketing tool, and even if some modern clubs see it as some kind of promotional expense, it's a useless one.

But that's not the rationale I see in doing it. Plenty of clubs do free or cheap coaching for kids as well. But I think it's difficult (and possibly pointless) to argue that the likes of this is a more worthy expense than supporting someone who has practiced til their hands blister. And then on to argue that it's not okay to pay for a top amateur to go to a major GUI c'ship, but paying for dinner, drinks and possibly even accom for twelve or fourteen guys in a Barton Cup squad as they progress through round after round, just because they wear a navy jumper with a crest on it, is okay?

I just think the above is all very subjective, and to say "that cost is not okay" without looking at the whole of what is generally deemed "okay" and comparing it, doesn't make for a balanced opinion.

Personally, I'm in favour of backing players who are good enough to play in Boys, Youths, Mens and Seniors. However, in straigtened times, it might not be viable in all clubs.