Public Sector/Goverment deal reached...

DrumSteve

says so right here folks...

Dealio...

So capitulation on the part of the goverment or the unions... Gonna revisit the existing pay cuts next year and no more pay cuts until 2014. I can smell a cop out on behalf of the goverment me thinks... but we'll see how it goes i suppose.

helimachoptor

Idiots.

silverharp

I dont buy it, it just sounds like a mechanism to buy time and save face for this year. If the gov. are lucky they will push the problem out beyond the election.

meanwhile back at the banks, surprise surprise the experts are starting to catch up with the "dogs on the street view" that the loan books are worse then expcected. One can only assume that another round of 5% plus cuts will be required next year just to stand still.

Sleepy

*facepalm*

"A lot ****ed up, a lot more to make a mess of"

Dannyboy83

Well, I guess if the Unions have backed down, that's probably the best outcome so the next government can concentrate on cleaning up FF's mess.

If FF have backed down, they will use it as ammunition when they are in opposition, setting landmines for the next government.

We just have to ensure FG have a majority, cannot afford a FG/Lab coalition. (literally)

seamus

Yeah, looks like a bit of a "lets wait and see" agreement.

This time next year, the unions will show that they managed to "save" 50 million through the abolition of some obscure practice and will demand a refund of 1bn of wages, and we'll start all over again.

niffle

Another con job on the unions and government side. This further proves that the workers are mere pawns, the unions are attempting to safe face while the Government are really offering nothing when you take into account their "force Majeure" clause in relation to economy.

maupat

Yeah I agree - think both sides have agreed on a compromise "for now". Even though there will be no further pay cuts until 2014 the government will probably increase tax bands across the board in the next budget.

The question is will the Unions kick up a fuss again then?!

FlutterinBantam

I'd say everybody is happy**.

Govt. got the evil day postponed, and by the rhetoric from Kieran Mulvey on RTE this morning, plenty of room for long weeks of 'bargaining' by various of Unions of a workforce that can't be sacked!

When I heard the old catchphrases being trotted out, "building trust" "agreed processes" "verifiable productivity savings"( there's months of wrangling in that one despite Ind assessors) remember all this has to be put to the workforce yet and have we forgotten benchmarking so quickly?

That's a spur of the moment assessment, and the word that springs to mind is 'quagmire'

** Except J.Q Taxpayer

Dannyboy83

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0330/breaking4.html

Government, unions agree deal on public sector pay

the Government has given a commitment that there will be no further cuts in public sector pay until 2014 at least.

The trade unions, for their part, have agreed to implement extensive reforms in work practices and conditions of employment throughout the entire public service.

Yup, they have kicked the can down the alley and placed a landmine at the front door of the next government.


What right do they have to extend an agreement to 2014?
They shouldn't be allowed to extend it past 2012.

They may aswell go ahead and promise the PS 200% wage increases now by 2014, because they know they won't be around to have to deal with it, they'll just shout about how unfair it is when they are in opposition.

Fianna Failure are fcuking killing this country.

mickoneill30

At first glance from Breakingnews (I'm sure it'll be analysed by every paper every waking minute for the rest of the week), to me it seems like a good deal for the government.

Paycuts won't be reveresed. Reforms (longer core hours and reduced numbers) in public sector are to happen and if they do then "some" of the pay will be restored.

If the reforms happens the the PS costs less so then if recovery happens the PS can get more money.

If my analysis is right (and it probably isn't) I can't see the public service being too happy with it.

Amhran Nua

I think a lot depends on how this is viewed by the international community. We're funding the deficit on borrowings from them, and the cost of this borrowing depends on how quickly the government is perceived as reining in spending and applying austerity measures, in a similar manner to the purpose of the IMF. If this is picked up as a postponement for political reasons, its going to cost more just to keep paying out the same amount. Delaying things could be a very counterproductive move indeed.

PeakOutput

The deal overnight agrees in principle that there will be no more pay cuts before 2014, with a pay review scheduled for next year

if the goverment have sense there is room for more cuts if we get a double dip and things get worse

im not completely opposed to what the article says is agreed. as long as the reforms are as wideranging as it suggests and numbers are very significantly cut it should be ok

also it does seem to be just a placate the unions until the next general election agreement. i doubt ff expect to be in power after it so they know it will be fg and labour left dealing with this agreement and potentially breaking it which might mess them up if there are widespread strikes for the election after that

meh we willhave to wait and see

markpb

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

What right do they have to extend an agreement to 2014?
They shouldn't be allowed to extend it past 2012.

On the other hand, it does make it harder for FF to promise pay rises to the PS in the rollup to the next election. At best they'll be two years after.

Colm R

I think it probably went like this:

Government: We blew it, every dam penny of it.

Unions: In fairness, it was fun while it lasted.

Government: I tell you what, we are going to booted out soon, so we'll let the other shower come in, you guys can take it out on them, and we'll be back in less than 5 years and we'll spend spend spend!! Win Win!

Unions: Sounds good to me. Fancy a pint?

Government: Yeah, I need one badly. Have to cause more problems for the next government tomorrow with this banking problem.

Unions: Remember - its not your fault, it was international circumstances!!!

pah

I'm happy that there will be no more direct cuts. TBH I don't want my 5% back at the expense of the state. I don't see it being paid back until the deficit is overturned and even then I don't think it's a good idea to be looking at any increases for years and years.

Rookster

Another con job done on the private sector. How can the Gov say that there will not be any pay cuts until 2014 at least. How do they know what will hapen the country over the next few years. Can they guarantee everyone in the private sector that they will not have their pay cut or lose their jobs. A total joke of a country.

Riskymove

Rookster wrote: »

Another con job done on the private sector. How can the Gov say that there will not be any pay cuts until 2014 at least. How do they know what will hapen the country over the next few years.

they have included a clause that the deal is dependent on the country's finances not deteriorating further

niffle

More union rehtoric, more fluff from government, as they say nothing changes

Rookster

Riskymove wrote: »

they have included a clause that the deal is dependent on the country's finances not deteriorating further

But that is just rubbish. The country is in the toilet at the moment and the Union's want the wage cuts reversed now. Their definition of deteriorating further might not be the same as those in the private sector who have lost their jobs.

jimmyfixit

Is there a back out clause for the Goverment? Just got sent a copy of the agreement had a quick read cant find it. It was on some RTE report but thats
the only place I have read about it.

Riskymove

Rookster wrote: »

the Union's want the wage cuts reversed now

well they have not agreed to that have they?

jimmyfixit

Sorry just seen back out clause very last line . But its not just for the goverment if we sink any further all bets are off. Last one out turn off the lights please. Its best to keep the greens happy.:p

Time for me to exit SIPTU.

Rookster

Riskymove wrote: »

well they have not agreed to that have they?

What I mean is that the Unions think the country is grand now and that there should not have been pay cuts. How can these people relistically determine if the country is deteriorating or not. They live in a bubble.They should not have this power anyway. That is the job of that "Jumbo Sausage" we have as Taoiseach.

oncevotedff

Rookster wrote: »

Another con job done on the private sector..

What private sector? The former private sector is either on social welfare or being bailed out by the taxpayer. Everybody is in hock to the state in order to enrich Fianna Fail's campaign contributors. There is no private sector.

As for the agreement. Good luck to the Union leaders selling this scam to their members.

LookingFor

FWIW, my sister who works in the civil service, member of CPSU, says that people there are very unhappy with the deal, and that apparently the CPSU's executive committee is recommending they vote no on it. Lots of emails being thrown around, all very negative. Blair Horan might have a hard time selling this to them, but I guess if other unions accept it, the CPSU would be isolated if they don't. I guess it'll depend on how many of the unions vote for it vs those who vote against it.

FlutterinBantam

I'm not too surprised, seems they will have to work now.

However the sticking point will be between the 9to 5 ers and the frontline people.

I take the opinion that, after looking at the bones of the outcome, the frontline people will lose their shift and unsocial hours pay whild the '9 to5ers' get away scot free.


That won't be accepted and rightly so .

The fairest and easiest way is basic pay cuts all round... no ifs/buts/or maybes.

Deeda77

Theres a lot of For and Againsts on here. For my sins, i left the private sector and joined the public sector a few yrs ago. I took a substantial pay cut 2do so. I did it for my family and income security for the future. How fruitless an exercise that turned out 2 be!
Im under no illusions; there are people in the PS getting paid gud wages for doing very little (as there are in the private sector), but they are in the minority. The majority of us work very hard, every day, for very little. Thats wat the media dont want u to know becuz it wud bring their anti-PS campaign to its knees...and, as that sells papers and the irish public are stupid enuf 2 buy watever they spew, they cant risk the truth coming out.
The pay cuts over the last yr have pushed me and my family in2 poverty. Its not a matter of budgeting better or cutting bak; theres nothing left after the bills r paid. We are in serious debt because if anything is needed eg car problems, birthdays, clothes etc, we have 2 borrow for it.
My question is: why shud my family and thousands of others like us suffer because the government need money to keep their friends, the banks, in the manner 2 which they are accustomed? Its disgusting. Cut the big salaries of the TDs and Assistant Secs! They are on more money than ul ever know. Leave us on meager wages alone.
And, to clarify a point made by anti-PS flufferinbantam, or sumthing like that, we CAN be fired! And we wil be. Also, we already pay our pensions each wk and can hope 4 little more than state pension when we retire.
Im on little more than min wage now and gm expected 2 do my very responsible job 2 the best of my ability....my ability wil reflect my pay from now on. They can all go 2 hell.

irishh_bob

speaking to matt cooper this evening , mark fielding of isme made the point that were employers in factories , firms and business,s around the country to go thier employees this morning and make a promise that their would be no further pay cuts untill 2014 , the employees would have thier boss brought away by the men in white coats

BlaasForRafa

LookingFor wrote: »

FWIW, my sister who works in the civil service, member of CPSU, says that people there are very unhappy with the deal, and that apparently the CPSU's executive committee is recommending they vote no on it. Lots of emails being thrown around, all very negative. Blair Horan might have a hard time selling this to them, but I guess if other unions accept it, the CPSU would be isolated if they don't. I guess it'll depend on how many of the unions vote for it vs those who vote against it.

Are you serious? This is a gift horse for the unions, they'd be mad not to take it.

For the government this is an absolutely craven capitulation, a bit of trouble in the passport office and they collapse in a flopsweat. By offering this deal the government have betrayed whats left of the private sector and the unemployed, they've left a bunch of workshy malcontents in the PS beat them whilst the countries finances are in a parlous state.

sceptre

irishh_bob wrote: »

speaking to matt cooper this evening , mark fielding of isme made the point that were employers in factories , firms and business,s around the country to go thier employees this morning and make a promise that their would be no further pay cuts untill 2014 , the employees would have thier boss brought away by the men in white coats

Even ignoring that the government can't know for certain that there won't be more economic deflation next year, the following year, the year after that or another year yet again (after all their line is that it's been out of their control as an international crisis, not that many believe them), they're also binding the hands of the next government and any election decision made by the people while they themselves are in the middle of a recession. Which is a little rude (yes, that's what I said) as well as assuming the best (read as "optimistic economics") and quite possibly being man-with-van-and-straitjacket-and-white-coat territory.

BANZAI_RUNNER

has anyone twigged the fact that as part of the reform package the unions are entering into a peace clause, so when the government decide not to award the pay rises the unions will not be able to strike. my source for this is the wife she is a civil servant, and it came up in a discussion at work with union rep

JustinDee

oncevotedff wrote: »

What private sector? The former private sector is either on social welfare or being bailed out by the taxpayer.

What utter bilge.
I'm neither on welfare nor am I being bailed out by the taxpayer.

Lemming

Deeda77 wrote: »

My question is: why shud my family and thousands of others like us suffer because the government need money to keep their friends, the banks, in the manner 2 which they are accustomed? Its disgusting. Cut the big salaries of the TDs and Assistant Secs! They are on more money than ul ever know. Leave us on meager wages alone.

First of all, you have a 105-key keyboard. Stop writing like you're on a mobile phone. It's irritating.

Now, without meaning to seem heartless, you are paid what you are paid, and what you do with that money is your choice and yours alone. You have become, as you have accused others, accustomed to living a certain lifestyle when the money is clearly not there either to continue paying you what you want to be paid, and indeed what you yourself can afford. Welcome to economic depression. To borrow a phrase, live within your means or seek better employment.

With all that said and done, I agree wholeheartedly that our politicians are extremely overpaid and should see reductions in salary.

Incidentally, what's a meagre wage? Considering that the minimum wage inside the civil service is well above actual minimum wage, I will call shenanigans on pleading the poor mouth in that regard.

And, to clarify a point made by anti-PS flufferinbantam, or sumthing like that, we CAN be fired! And we wil be. Also, we already pay our pensions each wk and can hope 4 little more than state pension when we retire.
Im on little more than min wage now and gm expected 2 do my very responsible job 2 the best of my ability....my ability wil reflect my pay from now on. They can all go 2 hell.

It's incredibly rare that members of the civil service get fired; hence the extreme amounts of wastage that seem to exist in some departments or offices. People are simply moved sideways/backwards with no real repercussions other than inconvenience.

Oh, heaven forbid that you are expected to actually work for your salary, to the best of your ability. I have a newsflash for you; I've been expected to do that since I started working years ago. As has everyone else not within the civil service. If I wanted a pay raise, I had to prove that I was/am worth that raise. No such thing as guaruanteed yearly increments.

BANZAI_RUNNER

actually civil servants can be fired , its all down to when they started and what contract they signed, anyone who joined in the last 10 to 12 years can be fired, but anyone prior to that cant unless there is a ministerial order directing H.R to do so

niffle

BANZAI_RUNNER wrote: »

has anyone twigged the fact that as part of the reform package the unions are entering into a peace clause, so when the government decide not to award the pay rises the unions will not be able to strike. my source for this is the wife she is a civil servant, and it came up in a discussion at work with union rep

I tiwgged immediately it is one of the reasons i would not accept, this deal is weighted in favour of the Government not the employee.

Lemming

BANZAI_RUNNER wrote: »

actually civil servants can be fired , its all down to when they started and what contract they signed, anyone who joined in the last 10 to 12 years can be fired, but anyone prior to that cant unless there is a ministerial order directing H.R to do so

Not meaning to nitpick, but there's a lot of "can" being bandied about as opposed to 'are'. I have several members of immediate and first-related family inside the civil service, and whilst I appreciate that what I'm saying is anecdotale, it would tally with a lot of other anecdotes in being a similar theme; i.e. it is rare that people are actually dismissed. I personally know one person who was. I wont go into details but lets say it was seriously crazy stuff the person was involved in, known to Gardai, etc. And for ages, all the civil service did was move this person about in the hope the problem would "go away". The general impression I was left with was that removing said person was a tremendous effort.

BANZAI_RUNNER

niffle wrote: »

I tiwgged immediately it is one of the reasons i would not accept, this deal is weighted in favour of the Government not the employee.

good to hear it, but unfortunately there are quite a few in the civil service who will accept it ,hopefully the union reps will push for it to be voted down

BANZAI_RUNNER

Lemming wrote: »

Not meaning to nitpick, but there's a lot of "can" being bandied about as opposed to 'are'. I have several members of immediate and first-related family inside the civil service, and whilst I appreciate that what I'm saying is anecdotale, it would tally with a lot of other anecdotes in being a similar theme; i.e. it is rare that people are actually dismissed. I personally know one person who was. I wont go into details but lets say it was seriously crazy stuff the person was involved in, known to Gardai, etc. And for ages, all the civil service did was move this person about in the hope the problem would "go away". The general impression I was left with was that removing said person was a tremendous effort.

well like yourself i too know of someone who was in the civil service for over 25 years , they caused some problem and in a matter of days they were fired , now that took a ministerial order to do it, and in my opinion what the person did certainly didn't warrant that.
all i'm doing is providing the facts , someone here said its rare that they get fired, i was just clarifying that fact

anymore

The teachers in one of my local secondary schools had already implemented a scheme to compensate themselves for the ' hardships they are enduring. The number of 'half days' for Parent Teacher Meetings has been increased from five to six and the ' half day' now starts at 11.00.
Prior to the paycuts and levies , they were already taking five half days even though it was part of benchmarking that PTM should have been held after school hours.

IrishTonyO

Looks like the CPSU members are starting to realise how good their union is

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0331/pay.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

Rookster

Sack these lazy b***ards and get people from the dole queue who will gladly do this work.