Wage rates falling

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

murphaph

as time goes by it will become more and more apparent that the private sector worker is responding to our challenging times by putting his/her head down and working hard, not working to rule and throwing their toys out of the pram...like some. Government need to hold firm.

danman

If the extra 200,000 unemployed peoples wages are taken into account, what would the average "Haircut" be?

murphaph

danman wrote: »

If the extra 200,000 unemployed peoples wages are taken into account, what would the average "Haircut" be?

Didn't you know? They're all on the dole by choice, sure there's loads of jobs...according to ARRGHH anyway! lol.

ixoy

I'm awaiting the stock response of how the private sector became uncompetitive (true) but how that doesn't mean that the PS/CS should in turn lose their wages (false, as it's not sustainable).

I'd be interested in seeing the reduction in income tax these wage drops would result in. The PS/CS should be championing a "race to the top" for private sectors to keep the money flowing in!

rightwingdub

murphaph wrote: »

as time goes by it will become more and more apparent that the private sector worker is responding to our challenging times by putting his/her head down and working hard, not working to rule and throwing their toys out of the pram...like some. Government need to hold firm.

The government needs to impose further PS pay cuts in next Decembers budget siting "changed financial circumstances", I'm glad to see that the private sector is becoming more competitive, now its over to the communist public sector.

Head The Wall

murphaph wrote: »

Didn't you know? They're all on the dole by choice, sure there's loads of jobs...according to ARRGHH anyway! lol.

yeah, they're all just too lazy to get one. He carried out a poll (I'm surprised it wasn't in the papers) and 1 guy said he didn't want the job.

Those stats are good enough for some people

Flex

donegalfella wrote: »

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Wouldnt make any difference really. Even in 2003 the PS had an 8% pay premium over their private sector counterparts. By 2006 that figure had risen to 23% and by 2009 it was 26%. At lower levels the gap became as great as 32%.

http://www.esri.ie/publications/latest_publications/view/index.xml?id=2691

Interestingly, in the mid 1990's the PS pay premium was also 8%, same as 2003. Just goes to show that PS wages increased at a similar rate to private sector wages and they were never being 'left behind' during the boom. The more one looks into benchmarking the more outrageous it becomes.

The_Honeybadger

This is anecdotal, but I left a job in late 2007 to move on with my career, at the time I had been with that company for two years and was earning 33k (40k with bonuses included). I recently saw the same job with the same company advertised at basic 24-26k. That is a drop of 20%+ from what the psoition paid two years ago and they specify that the successful candidate will be a graduate. Has the cost of living fallen 20% since 2007? I doubt it.

hairybro

Any links to the actual “data” as opposed to “the Irish Times say”? What does the data say specifically about, say, nurses, doctors, teachers, dentists, and other likely PS roles as opposed to retail and other roles generally external to the PS?

I also note that this is for “new” as opposed to existing employees. Furthermore, PS salaries have already “fallen between 5 and 22 per cent” for all employees, and not just new ones. Also, it shows that some in-demand professions continue to attract pay rises.

Oh, and don’t forget to reciprocate your anti-PS “thanks”, lads; there must be a few permutations that you have missed among yourselves.

rightwingdub

mickeyk wrote: »

This is anecdotal, but I left a job in late 2007 to move on with my career, at the time I had been with that company for two years and was earning 33k (40k with bonuses included). I recently saw the same job with the same company advertised at basic 24-26k. That is a drop of 20%+ from what the psoition paid two years ago and they specify that the successful candidate will be a graduate. Has the cost of living fallen 20% since 2007? I doubt it.

The cost of living will need to fall by at least another 15% in Ireland, I think the cost of living has fallen by 8% since the middle of 2008 although public sector charges are still increasing. I heard of a recruitment agency who offerered €23k for someone starting off as a recruitment consultant previously it was a starting salary of €28k, the good news is that if wages continue to fall then more jobs will be created long term making the economy more competitive.

dissed doc

murphaph wrote: »

as time goes by it will become more and more apparent that the private sector worker is responding to our challenging times by putting his/her head down and working hard, not working to rule and throwing their toys out of the pram...like some. Government need to hold firm.

You mean like not holding the country to ransom and demanding €35 billion to bail out private banks and failed private sector developers?

vs the €20 billion a year cost of the health service, etc., ?

Seems like hospitals are a better deal and throwing so much more into the irish "breakfast rolls and buy to lets" private sector.

murphaph

dissed doc wrote: »

You mean like not holding the country to ransom and demanding €35 billion to bail out private banks and failed private sector developers?

vs the €20 billion a year cost of the health service, etc., ?

Seems like hospitals are a better deal and throwing so much more into the irish "breakfast rolls and buy to lets" private sector.

The banks were supposed to be regulated by the public sector (another thing the ordinary taxpayer pays you to do).

The bailout should be a once off. The excesses of the public sector are an ongoing problem.

Liam Byrne

rightwingdub wrote: »

The cost of living will need to fall by at least another 15% in Ireland, I think the cost of living has fallen by 8% since the middle of 2008

It might have, were it not for insurance increases, road tax increases, heating oil increases, petrol rises and additional taxes, combined with unchanging services charges (bins, phone, broadband, electricity)

Count Dooku

hairybro wrote: »

Any links to the actual “data” as opposed to “the Irish Times say”?

All actual data is hidden within civil service, to be more precisely revenue
Smart guys from revenue could easily calculate how much people were earning in 2007 and how much exactly the same people are earning now. Then final figure must be applied to total PS payroll bill. How it will be applied – through cuts or through redundancies – it will be problem of public sector

I think it will be fair

doc_17

Head The Wall wrote: »

yeah, they're all just too lazy to get one. He carried out a poll (I'm surprised it wasn't in the papers) and 1 guy said he didn't want the job.

Those stats are good enough for some people

I take your point. however about 100000 people would appear to be too lazy to get a job. In 2007 the live reg was at 170000. So a certain amount of the population had already decided that they were never gonna get a job and leave it to the rest of us suckers to pick up the tab.

But sure who could blame them since the dole was going up every year!

Only fools and horses

thebman

Liam Byrne wrote: »

It might have, were it not for insurance increases, road tax increases, heating oil increases, petrol rises and additional taxes, combined with unchanging services charges (bins, phone, broadband, electricity)

and public transport price increases for those trying to leave the car behind and paid parking in train stations for those trying to use the nearest facilities to them to commute by public transport.

dan_d

Right behind you there thebman!!!! We are so backward...

hairybro

Count Dooku wrote: »

All actual data is hidden within civil service, to be more precisely revenue

So that’s a “no” then?

Head The Wall

Liam Byrne wrote: »

It might have, were it not for insurance increases, road tax increases, heating oil increases, petrol rises and additional taxes, combined with unchanging services charges (bins, phone, broadband, electricity)

Insurance is up yes, Government are responsible for all the other increases e.g. Fuel duty and taxes. Also through Electricity regulator they are keeping the price of electricity higher than it should be as prices have dropped but could come down more. If your bins, phone, broadband and electricity have not come down then you aren't shopping around as these have all dropped.

Health, Education and most government services have risen in cost so stop waffling and give me a cost bar insurance that has risen

thebman wrote: »

and public transport price increases for those trying to leave the car behind and paid parking in train stations for those trying to use the nearest facilities to them to commute by public transport.

Again a semi state body increasing prices, who in the private sector has increased costs?

hairybro wrote: »

So that’s a “no” then?

If you read the 3rd line of the OP you will see where the data comes from

The research from recruitment website IrishJobs.ie

It seems to be satisfactory for most people that companies advertising jobs would be able to ascertain this from their data but not you.

hairybro

Head The Wall wrote: »

If you read the 3rd line of the OP you will see where the data comes from

The research from recruitment website IrishJobs.ie

It seems to be satisfactory for most people that companies advertising jobs would be able to ascertain this from their data but not you.

Oh, I certainly did read the OP and the generic reference to IrishJobs.ie, but that still doesn’t provide any links to the actual data, describe the methodology adopted (population, sampling, data gathering, etc.), or epistemological assumptions, etc. does it? These are pretty basic things for research, you know.

If this “research” simply consists of average changes in advertised starting salaries for employers choosing to use IrishJobs.ie then any results are going to be seriously tainted and biased (Who uses IrishJobs? Must they? Do IrishJobs advertise much for jobs in medicine and education for example? Would the advertised jobs be a representative sample of all jobs in those sectors? Etc. etc.).

Still, such “research” suits what passes for “journalism” nowadays, I suppose :cool:

murphaph

hairybro wrote: »

Oh, I certainly did read the OP and the generic reference to IrishJobs.ie, but that still doesn’t provide any links to the actual data, describe the methodology adopted (population, sampling, data gathering, etc.), or epistemological assumptions, etc. does it? These are pretty basic things for research, you know.

If this “research” simply consists of average changes in advertised starting salaries for employers choosing to use IrishJobs.ie then any results are going to be seriously tainted and biased (Who uses IrishJobs? Must they? Do IrishJobs advertise much for jobs in medicine and education for example? Would the advertised jobs be a representative sample of all jobs in those sectors? Etc. etc.).

Still, such “research” suits what passes for “journalism” nowadays, I suppose :cool:

Why don't we set up a quango to find out for sure? and come back to us in 3 years with an answer. Meanwhile the country has gone bankrupt.

The dogs in the street know it. The income tax receipts show it. Private sector earnings are way down.

hairybro

murphaph wrote: »

Why don't we set up a quango to find out for sure? and come back to us in 3 years with an answer. Meanwhile the country has gone bankrupt.

The dogs in the street know it. The income tax receipts show it. Private sector earnings are way down.

Where am I advocating another bloody quango, or even asking for proper research to be conducted in this area? All I’m pointing out is how tentative – at best! – this sort of data is and that “the Irish Times say that IrishJobs.ie say” is not immutable evidence of anything. Neither is “the dogs in the street know it” BTW. Income tax receipts being down, of course, does demonstrate something (and something serious!) but does not afford sufficient granularity to say that *particular* roles in the PS are comparatively overpaid. Sure, many private sector workers have been badly affected, but many others outside of construction have remained unscathed in my admittedly (note!!) personal experience.

For the record, I’m all for a mass quango cull and would generally support PS redundancies (both compulsory and voluntary) *if* they were done fairly and transparently.

COYW

hairybro wrote: »

Oh, I certainly did read the OP and the generic reference to IrishJobs.ie, but that still doesn’t provide any links to the actual data, describe the methodology adopted (population, sampling, data gathering, etc.), or epistemological assumptions, etc. does it? These are pretty basic things for research, you know.

If this “research” simply consists of average changes in advertised starting salaries for employers choosing to use IrishJobs.ie then any results are going to be seriously tainted and biased (Who uses IrishJobs? Must they? Do IrishJobs advertise much for jobs in medicine and education for example? Would the advertised jobs be a representative sample of all jobs in those sectors? Etc. etc.).

Still, such “research” suits what passes for “journalism” nowadays, I suppose :cool:

At a guess I would say something like the following was the source of the figures. People who advertise with the likes of IrishJobs.ie, RecruitIreland, .. etc would submit their advert choosing a particular salary range, sector, years experience etc for the job they want to fill. Id say IrishJobs.ie or whoever did the research for them, compared the salary range for particular job criteria this month with comparitive jobs 6, 12 months ago and came up with their figures.

hairybro

COYW wrote: »

At a guess I would say something like the following was the source of the figures. People who advertise with the likes of IrishJobs.ie, RecruitIreland, .. etc would submit their advert choosing a particular salary range, sector, years experience etc for the job they want to fill. Id say IrishJobs.ie or whoever did the research for them, compared the salary range for particular job criteria this month with comparitive jobs 6, 12 months ago and came up with their figures.

Oh, I’d generally agree with you, COYW, but it would be nice to see all such details instead of us all having to “guess” to establish how much/little credibility the research deserves. I would certainly be interested to see the data myself (in whatever state it is).