DVB-T2 boxes work with DVB-T1 MPEG4

mrdtv2010

Confirmed reception via the new Bush £99 DVB-T2 box on French TNT HD which is MPEG4 DVB-T1. This means that T2 boxes will decode Irish DTT as well.

Link:

http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/forums/showpost.php?p=39284730&postcount=57

slegs

Would have been very surprising if they didnt considering DVB-T2 is designed to be backward complaint.

Kensington

What made you think that it wouldn't work?

reslfj

Kensington wrote: »

What made you think that it wouldn't work?

“Trust is good, control is better”

Lars

gtg60

Kensington wrote: »

What made you think that it wouldn't work?

It's feasible that the box may have been set to ONLY process MPEG4 from DVB-T2 muxes, it's nice to have confirmation that it does work.

Personally I'm very excited about a reasonably priced DVB-T2 'plus' box, people in Freeview overspill areas (and receiving Irish DTT) will have it all and SUB free!

7 day EPG, Series link, watch one ~ record another, single box ~ single remote! Going to be great for my folks and others receiving Irish and UK DTT.

slegs

gtg60 wrote: »

It's feasible that the box may have been set to ONLY process MPEG4 from DVB-T2 muxes, it's nice to have confirmation that it does work.

Personally I'm very excited about a reasonably priced DVB-T2 'plus' box, people in Freeview overspill areas (and receiving Irish DTT) will have it all and SUB free!

7 day EPG, Series link, watch one ~ record another, single box ~ single remote! Going to be great for my folks and others receiving Irish and UK DTT.

Agreed gtg60, for those in the right area these will be the perfect solution.

It would have been highly unlikely that these would not have worked in much the same way that DVB-S2 MPEG4 chips decode DVB-S MPEG4 channels (BBC HD/ITV HD).

The prices should start to fall on these in the next year as Freeview HD is getting a good amount of exposure in the UK with positive takeup predicted.

mrdtv2010

Winston, who posts occasionally on this forum has conducted an important field trial. They could have spiked the boxes so that the only backwards compatibility was with MPEG2 DVB-T1. Nothing in the DTG specification says anything about backwards compatibility with MPEG4 DVB-T1. The fact that they *DO* decode MPEG4 DVB-T1 TNT HD means that they are multifunction. Of course there are grouses about the fact that VBI teletext is not supported (far better than the junk MHEG5 service people have had to put up with in the UK for twelve years), but the T2 boxes DO decode MPEG4 T1. The Humax T2 box, now priced at £149, also has VHF & UHF tuners, whereas the £99 Bush T2 box is UHF only ( a brand I do not care for...)

This important result shows that the T2 boxes are indeed, as I suspected, the future proof choice in Ireland, and with volume economics the prices are falling. The reasons are now so simple:

a) DVB-T2

b) DVB-T1 MPEG4 and MPEG2

c)HD: T2 and T1

d) Its going to be a volume economics game: zapper T2 boxes have gone from £179 to £99 in a month. Its also very interesting that all Sony, Panasonic, Toshiba TVs north of 32 inches being launched in the UK are now T2.

This puts RTENL in yet another dilemma..

slegs

mrdtv2010 wrote: »

Winston, who posts occasionally on this forum has conducted an important field trial. They could have spiked the boxes so that the only backwards compatibility was with MPEG2 DVB-T1. Nothing in the DTG specification says anything about backwards compatibility with MPEG4 DVB-T1. The fact that they *DO* decode MPEG4 DVB-T1 TNT HD means that they are multifunction. Of course there are grouses about the fact that VBI teletext is not supported (far better than the junk MHEG5 service people have had to put up with in the UK for twelve years), but the T2 boxes DO decode MPEG4 T1. The Humax T2 box, now priced at £149, also has VHF & UHF tuners, whereas the £99 Bush T2 box is UHF only ( a brand I do not care for...)

This important result shows that the T2 boxes are indeed, as I suspected, the future proof choice in Ireland, and with volume economics the prices are falling. The reasons are now so simple:

a) DVB-T2

b) DVB-T1 MPEG4 and MPEG2

c)HD: T2 and T1

d) Its going to be a volume economics game: zapper T2 boxes have gone from £179 to £99 in a month. Its also very interesting that all Sony, Panasonic, Toshiba TVs north of 32 inches being launched in the UK are now T2.

This puts RTENL in yet another dilemma..

Well that would have been the most stupid design decision ever if you made a T2-MPEG4 box intentionally disabled for T1-MPEG4. Why would be the no 1 question?

This is a total non discussion. The boxes were always going to be T1-MPEG4 compliant.

And it is absolutely great news for RTE and Saorview as it improves the availability and price of compatible boxes for their service without them having to lift a finger. Great news all round...not sure what the point of your last statement is...where is the dilemma?

The Cush

I posted this in another thread yesterday

The Cush wrote: »

Was doing a bit of window shopping today in Limerick and came across some items of interest.

First off, in Maplins they have a Humax HD-FOX T2 on working display for a ridiculous €297 (£268) - internet price range £149 - £160. The receiver was setup with the UK setting - all channels in the 800's. The É in RTÉ did not display correctly in the channel name. Could not check the text - no R/C available.

mrdtv2010 wrote: »

The Humax T2 box, now priced at £149, also has VHF & UHF tuners, whereas the £99 Bush T2 box is UHF only ( a brand I do not care for...)

This important result shows that the T2 boxes are indeed, as I suspected, the future proof choice in Ireland, and with volume economics the prices are falling. The reasons are now so simple:

a) DVB-T2

b) DVB-T1 MPEG4 and MPEG2

c)HD: T2 and T1

d) Its going to be a volume economics game: zapper T2 boxes have gone from £179 to £99 in a month. Its also very interesting that all Sony, Panasonic, Toshiba TVs north of 32 inches being launched in the UK are now T2.

This puts RTENL in yet another dilemma..

A VHF tuner will not be required here (Swedish & Finnish market atm I guess), Comreg has ruled out launching DTT in VHF.

Can't see an RTÉNL dilemma. A Humax dilemma maybe if they have not designed the receiver with the Irish spec. in mind e.g. standard teletext and correctly displaying Irish language text. Would like to see the receiver installed with the Ireland setting. Definitely won't be buying one any time soon in the Irish Maplin stores to check it out.

Regarding VBI teletext Winston said in his post that he could not get it from the French channels, the feature may not be available in the UK setting, another reason to check out the receiver in the Ireland setting.

mrdtv2010

slegs wrote: »

Well that would have been the most stupid design decision ever if you made a T2-MPEG4 box intentionally disabled for T1-MPEG4. Why would be the no 1 question?

This is a total non discussion. The boxes were always going to be T1-MPEG4 compliant.

And it is absolutely great news for RTE and Saorview as it improves the availability and price of compatible boxes for their service without them having to lift a finger. Great news all round...not sure what the point of your last statement is...where is the dilemma?

Ha! You missed the point entirely: it was never clear until Winston's post on DS that the T2 boxes would work with MPEG4 T1. From a due diligence perspective on behalf of investors you have to determine in field trials that these boxes actually *WORK* with the previous standards. As the Americans would say, hat-tip to Winston for a result. It does mean that T2 boxes will be the ideal choice in a few years time....

slegs

mrdtv2010 wrote: »

Ha! You missed the point entirely: it was never clear until Winston's post on DS that the T2 boxes would work with MPEG4 T1. From a due diligence perspective on behalf of investors you have to determine in field trials that these boxes actually *WORK* with the previous standards. As the Americans would say, hat-tip to Winston for a result. It does mean that T2 boxes will be the ideal choice in a few years time....

No I got the point exactly...there was never any doubt here in my opinion - Winstons testing or not. A manufacturer is not going to intentionally disable compatiblity with a Europe wide standard for no particular reason. You are creating a eureka moment that was never in doubt. DVB-T2 is an evolution of the standard and incorporates the T1 standard. MPEG4 encoding is required for T2 Freeview HD. Why would any manfacturer disable MPEG4 for channels brodcasting on T1 standard being received through a T2 tuner?

As said before this is a non argument. Also you never answered the question about RTENL's dilemma?

gkp1

Can anybody confirm if a higher signal strength will be required to receive HD as indicated in this article from reghardware? This could have implications for Ireland recption of UK HD.

"The T2 part of the HD-Fox’s name refers to its ability to receive and decode DVB-T2 HD signals – as well as DVB-T standard definition ones, of course – but it’s not as simple as that. A decent aerial is even more critical than with standard definition DVB-T.

Typically, while a signal strength of around 30 per cent might be enough to pick up standard def channels you need at least 50% for HD. Cue hoards of unhappy punters...."

slegs

The Cush wrote: »

Was doing a bit of window shopping today in Limerick and came across some items of interest.

First off, in Maplins they have a Humax HD-FOX T2 on working display for a ridiculous €297 (£268) - internet price range £149 - £160. The receiver was setup with the UK setting - all channels in the 800's. The É in RTÉ did not display correctly in the channel name. Could not check the text - no R/C available.

The issues with Gaelic character set and teletext seem common enough in the combos also. While relatively minor compared to being able to receive the picture and EPG they are annoying to say the least. Hopefully these can be resolved by manfacturers to create a perfect solution for Irish DTT with Freeview HD boxes (i.e. fully saorview compliant). Saorview has a huge opportunity for a boost by riding on the back of full compatibility with Freeview HD boxes without any special extra technology. This could be very good timing wise for the Saorview solution.

mrdtv2010

gkp1 wrote: »

Can anybody confirm if a higher signal strength will be required to receive HD as indicated in this article from reghardware? This could have implications for Ireland recption of UK HD.

"The T2 part of the HD-Fox’s name refers to its ability to receive and decode DVB-T2 HD signals – as well as DVB-T standard definition ones, of course – but it’s not as simple as that. A decent aerial is even more critical than with standard definition DVB-T.

Typically, while a signal strength of around 30 per cent might be enough to pick up standard def channels you need at least 50% for HD. Cue hoards of unhappy punters...."

I don't think he knew what he was talking about. The T2 mode in the UK has the same AWGN number as T1 and then it comes down to the transmitter ERP. The HD transmitter ERPS in the DSO areas are IDENTICAL to those of Freeview PSB SD: this applies to Wales where B-P HD is currently 40kW and Preseli HD will be 20kW same as SD, The confusion arises from the pre-DSO T2 areas (the big urban areas) eg London where T2 is 10kW and T1 is 20kW. The Humax box works down to 20% signal strength on both HD and SD for EQUAL ERPs, then it fails rapidly. The high power T2 network in the UK is designed to have the same coverage as the high power T1 network.

Note: the box reviews by the trade rags and Internet sites always take place in the London area which is not being DSO'd till 2012. Then the T2 signal goes from 10kW to 200kW ERP. In the DSO areas facing Ireland such as Wales higher ERPS are already in use: if you already get reliable Freeview from Arfon, Preseli or indeed B-P or LLanddona then you are in business. But I do not like Bush boxes!!

STB

mrdtv2010 wrote: »

Confirmed reception via the new Bush £99 DVB-T2 box on French TNT HD which is MPEG4 DVB-T1. This means that T2 boxes will decode Irish DTT as well.

Link:

http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/forums/showpost.php?p=39284730&postcount=57

How did you work that out ? That is not a fair assumption at all.

For all your hat tipping MRDTV you have missed the most basic point.

Regardless of making the MPEG4 processor work with the T1 and T2 tuner spec (which I would expect to be conistent) the bigger issue is actually the effect of the use of Country Availability Descriptors!

Are these T2 boxes written according to the DBook Spec ?

If like the previous UK STBs they expect to see the country availability descriptor as GBR then it is highly likely that will not decode anything if this is not present! Also what if a specific country descriptor is broadcast, what effect does that have on the T2 box ? 800s ? Nothing at all - I can only imagine the confusion in border areas.

Telling manufacturers to ignore the ETSI standards and going with the DBook has been the cause of compatability problems with other countries all along.

That is the point of lab testing not what someone posted on an internet forum about the T2 box working in France. There are other factors at play other than the video compression codec being used and they vary by country.

mrdtv2010

STB wrote: »

How did you work that out ? That is not a fair assumption at all.

For all your hat tipping MRDTV you have missed the most basic point.

Regardless of making the MPEG4 processor work with the T1 and T2 tuner spec (which I would expect to be conistent) the bigger issue is actually the effect of the use of Country Availability Descriptors!

Are these T2 boxes written according to the DBook Spec ?

If like the previous UK STBs they expect to see the country availability descriptor as GBR then it is highly likely that will not decode anything if this is not present! Also what if a specific country descriptor is broadcast, what effect does that have on the T2 box ? 800s ? Nothing at all - I can only imagine the confusion in border areas.

Telling manufacturers to ignore the ETSI standards and going with the DBook has been the cause of compatability problems with other countries all along.

That is the point of lab testing not what someone posted on an internet forum about the T2 box working in France. There are other factors at play other than the video compression codec being used and they vary by country.

Didn't you read Winston's post properly? He said the TNT channels were put in the 800s from the Isle of Wight in the UK and the TNT HD channels decoded perfectly as did the SD channels. Why should they bother: the UK TV market is 25.0M TVHH and 80 million TV sets. The receivers are designed to conform to DBook 6.0 which is not in the public domain: you have to be a DTG member. And to have the Freeview HD tick they have to be tested by DTG or DigitalTV labs.

STB

mrdtv2010 wrote: »

Didn't you read Winston's post properly? He said the TNT channels were put in the 800s from the Isle of Wight in the UK and the TNT HD channels decoded perfectly as did the SD channels. Why should they bother: the UK TV market is 25.0M TVHH and 80 million TV sets. The receivers are designed to conform to DBook 6.0 which is not in the public domain: you have to be a DTG member. And to have the Freeview HD tick they have to be tested by DTG or DigitalTV labs.

If you actually understood what I am talking about you might drop the superior tone (why dont you check the standards adopted in France, then Ireland, ask someone on DSpy the technical spec of the UK DBook and then test one HERE in the field, including border areas - then check it again should RTE NL make changes closer to launch) . Then your thread title might be relevant to Rep of Ireland.

Teracom will be passing any boxes for Ireland.

Hopefully DVB-T2 boxes manufactured to YOUR country's standards will work in Ireland with OUR spec to the T (not T2 ) which will be fantastic (when they come down in 3 years to an equal price point they should be NOW - 60euro or less for HD H264 receivers - which are on the market now for DVB-T).

Lets hope the world cup in HD in the UK sells. I hope it does.

Sponge Bob

slegs wrote: »

This is a total non discussion. The boxes were always going to be T1-MPEG4 compliant.

They weren't you know, firmware is a strange beast and assumptions could have been made when the firmware was designed.

Thanks to mrdtv2010 for confirming it. Does MHEG5 work correctly with mpeg4 and 'T1' too seeing as that mpeg4 test must have been carried out in Kent or somewhere.

bk

Lads, this is a very interesting thread and please continue. But can you please leave out the personal remarks and keep it civil. I don't want to have to ban anyone.

slegs

Sponge Bob wrote: »

They weren't you know, firmware is a strange beast and assumptions could have been made when the firmware was designed.

Thanks to mrdtv2010 for confirming it. Does MHEG5 work correctly with mpeg4 and 'T1' too seeing as that mpeg4 test must have been carried out in Kent or somewhere.

Possible they could have ballsed up and made them not compatible but highly unlikely. The way this was announced by mrdtv it was like it was a bonus that they were compatible.

Just my opinion but in most boxes I have tested once MPEG4 is there its there and it doesnt matter what the DVB standard is (S1, S2, T). Only exception is the Panasonic well publicised mess up on DVB standards in their freesat TV tuners.

slegs

slegs wrote: »

Possible they could have ballsed up and made them not compatible but highly unlikely. The way this was announced by mrdtv it was like it was a bonus that they were compatible.

I think the purpose of mrdtv's thread is to make it clear that in overspill areas you can use a UK freeview hd compliant set and have Irish dtt from the same set aswell.
That appears to be to be the purpose here which is a good thing to know...[not if you are a onevision or irish paytv backer mind you].

Apogee

Seeing as how we have no idea what service type flags are used in France, a reception report of the French DTT service is of limited use to anyone in Ireland.

To my mind, a reception report of the actual Irish DTT service, as per post #9, is considerably more useful. And until the service goes official, and they stop messing with the DVB streams, it's still somewhat up in the air.

I don't think it's up in the air at all as for to kiebosh the thing,they'd have to alienate most new tv's in the land and they aint going to do that in a hurry.

Apogee

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't think it's up in the air at all as for to kiebosh the thing,they'd have to alienate most new tv's in the land and they aint going to do that in a hurry.

Changing the service flag won't "alienate" most TVs as the majority are presumably DVB compliant. However, past experience has shown us that DTT kit designed for the UK doesn't necessarily follow the DVB standards fully.

Well if it doesn't alienate,theres no problem.

Honestly I think we're trying to invent trouble here.

Sponge Bob

Deleted User wrote: »

Well if it doesn't alienate,theres no problem.

Honestly I think we're trying to invent trouble here.

I think we are all aware of what the trouble could be and some members of the forum have forged links with box shippers and may even be influencing the roadmap of the firmware in those boxes.

That is a good thing overall, Ireland will generally be overlooked given the size of the market and annoying bugs for the Irish will be assigned a low fix priority if admitted.

I tried to influence Tesco for example who are about to flood the market with noname boxes sometime this year. With nonames you get essentially one shot at the firmware unlike the Sony and Panasonic type of ongoing evolution.

If they actually listened I will know soon enough

STB

Deleted User wrote: »

Well if it doesn't alienate,theres no problem.

Honestly I think we're trying to invent trouble here.

Deleted User wrote: »

Well if it doesn't alienate,theres no problem.

Honestly I think we're trying to invent trouble here.

BB No one is trying to invent trouble. It is being pointed out that this thread is entitled "DVB-T2 boxes work with DVB-T1 MPEG4" which is a very bald inference!

With what standards do the boxes work ? The UKs ? What about ETSI DVB standards ? They are the ONLY standards that should concern us.

Here are 2 examples of WHY no-one should run out and buy a DVB-T2 box manufactured for the UK market, thinking it will work in Ireland which the title infers.

Previous experiences (MPEG2 UK Boxes and Irish MPEG2 broadcasting)

This is an extract from a DVB report on box testing done after the Dept of Comms MPEG2 & MPEG4 trial.

At the commencement of the Irish DTT trial, it was decided to test the suitability of basic
MPEG 2 U.K. STBs for the Irish trial DTT network. These tests were conducted by the DTG in the UK.
As a result of these tests it became evident that many STBs did not perform as expected.
Many of these failed automatically because:

The displayed on-screen time, date and/or channel number were incorrect in some cases.

Some STBs expect to see the country_availability_descriptor as GBR and will not
decode anything if this is not present.

STB manufacturers apply the D-Book specification to STBs destined for the U.K.
market. This does not adhere rigorously to the ETSI specification but was adopted at the
start-up of U.K. DTT to ease the problems of starting a digital service.

Source: http://www.digitaltelevision.ie/NR/rdonlyres/50156B0A-AA38-4B43-B109-0773A97A50AA/0/SetTopBoxesTrialReport.pdf

Current MPEG4/Freesat products

These "ease of use" UK DBook specs are still being followed for DVB-T in recent Panasonic products manufactured for the UK currently available on the market. IE NO FULL SERVICE TYPES DEFINED for DVB-T. And as a result no use to Rep of Ireland (as punters have found out the hard way!).

Therefore, it is very important that someone tests one of these on the ground here in Ireland before posting that 2+2=4.

If the main ETSI standards have been applied in the UK standards without short cuts then theorectically there should not be a problem... but bear in mind what happened in the past and present and the reasons for those "happenings".

It has already been hinted at by another poster here who I suspect is an RTE engineer that more changes MAY be made down the road. And I would also suspect that may well indeed involve the use of country descriptors especially in border areas.

Conspiracy theories aside Sponge Bob (I don't sell boxes or TVs). I do believe that the person you referred to ensures the products are at least compliant with this countrys standards. Something that cant be said about the title and the content of the first thread here and its inferences.

We dont want to be sending people the wrong way.

Sponge Bob

I am not accusing anyone of conspiring STB much less conspiring across STBs , I am saying that induced or overlooked and ingored firmware issues are not a priority if they occur in Ireland and that if we can get 3 top tier IDTV manufacturers and 3 top tier box manufacturers to support Irish standards across their entire range then we will be doing well.

No one of us will manage that, it shall be a collective effort by a number of people through a number of channels. RTE should organise a plugfest and tell everyone who passes and who doesn't and who REFUSES to go.

winston_1

The Cush wrote: »

I posted this in another thread yesterday

A VHF tuner will not be required here (Swedish & Finnish market atm I guess), Comreg has ruled out launching DTT in VHF.

Can't see an RTÉNL dilemma. A Humax dilemma maybe if they have not designed the receiver with the Irish spec. in mind e.g. standard teletext and correctly displaying Irish language text. Would like to see the receiver installed with the Ireland setting. Definitely won't be buying one any time soon in the Irish Maplin stores to check it out.

Regarding VBI teletext Winston said in his post that he could not get it from the French channels, the feature may not be available in the UK setting, another reason to check out the receiver in the Ireland setting.

Interesting to read this thread.
There is no country setting on the Bush box, the software version is v2.29(UK). Interesting however one of the screenshots in the manual shows v0.1(EU), so it would appear that there may be alternative versions in the pipeline.
Don't know if the same applies to the Humax box.
Recent UK DVB-T boxes put non UK channels in the 800's, but earlier ones don't necessarily do so. One example is the Woolworth's Worthit box. Early ones v1.01 put French channels on their correct LCN's, later ones v1.03 put them in the 800's.