A question for christians...

trapsagenius

What do Christians think of events like Fatima, Lourdes, NDEs , the "miracle of the sun" and so on?Proof of divine intervention or just freak occurrences(or even just lies?).

I don't really know what to think about them to be honest, thats why I'm interested to hear some christian feedback.

P.S-I started a similar thread in the atheist forum.

Fanny Cradock

I don't believe them.

Manach

I do believe them. They've crossed the threshold of acceptability for the Vatican, and once you accept the they there was actually one tax collectos in the Bible that actually repented, why not Lourdes.

lmaopml

trapsagenius wrote: »

What do Christians think of events like Fatima, Lourdes, NDEs , the "miracle of the sun" and so on?Proof of divine intervention or just freak occurrences(or even just lies?).

I don't really know what to think about them to be honest, thats why I'm interested to hear some christian feedback.

P.S-I started a similar thread in the atheist forum.

LOL! This should be interesting...can't wait till the atheists get here :pac:

To be honest the NDE's of recent times I don't know too much about...and I couldn't comment on....

..as far as Our Lady of Lourdes is concerned, yes, I don't particularly see anything wrong with the message that would make me overly 'concerned'..It's not terribly unusual to think God is still in touch with us even in fairly modern times...He couldn't send a more humble and lovely mother....This would fall under the jurisdiction of the Catholic Church and mostly they are fairly careful about whether a visitation is approved..

I love Our Lady, as the very first Christian, the one who said 'yes' and started it all..........but I know it's a matter of debate, which is not my arena....and not something that particularly bothers me either..

Suffice to say, I love and honour the Mother of God, but I can make the distinction, - as to whom is the 'saviour', as most of my Catholic counterparts do....



That would be Jesus Christ..:) The ultimate as far as all of Christianity is concerned..

How come nobody ever mentions our very own 'knock'? Now there's a place of peace.....

JimiTime

For me its not about believing or not believing, they are rather completely inconsaquential to me and my faith. I recognise nothing of benefit in such things tbh, and so I never think its anything Godly if some kind of apparition did actually happen anyway.

hinault

lmaopml wrote: »

LOL! This should be interesting...can't wait till the atheists get here :pac:

To be honest the NDE's of recent times I don't know too much about...and I couldn't comment on....

..as far as Our Lady of Lourdes is concerned, yes, I don't particularly see anything wrong with the message that would make me overly 'concerned'..It's not terribly unusual to think God is still in touch with us even in fairly modern times...He couldn't send a more humble and lovely mother....This would fall under the jurisdiction of the Catholic Church and mostly they are fairly careful about whether a visitation is approved..

I love Our Lady, as the very first Christian, the one who said 'yes' and started it all..........but I know it's a matter of debate, which is not my arena....and not something that particularly bothers me either..

Suffice to say, I love and honour the Mother of God, but I can make the distinction, - as to whom is the 'saviour', as most of my Catholic counterparts do....



That would be Jesus Christ..:) The ultimate as far as all of Christianity is concerned..

How come nobody ever mentions our very own 'knock'? Now there's a place of peace.....

Our Lady has a special place in the RCC and her intercession is invoked by many RC's.

You make a great point.
Our Lady was the first Christian because the Bible teaches that she accepted God's call to be the Mother of Jesus.
I had never thought of her as being the first Christian until you mentioned it.

It does not suprise me that she appeared at Lourdes, Fatima etc.
It is interesting to read the story of Lourdes and Fatima because the Mother of Jesus seems to appear to children.
And what she tells the children to say to mankind could not be known by the children ie.she told the children at Lourdes that she was the Immaculate Conception.
A concept which no child could have ever divined themselves!

JimiTime

hinault wrote: »

she told the children at Lourdes that she was the Immaculate Conception.

Is that all? Was there any message delivered that had any substance or relevance to Christians? Any prophecy, or prophetic interpretations? Is there anything that we could use to 'test the spirits' message? Or was Mary just visiting to tell us that 'BTW, I was born without sin. thanks and good bye'?

Xluna

Manach wrote: »

I do believe them. They've crossed the threshold of acceptability for the Vatican, and once you accept the they there was actually one tax collectos in the Bible that actually repented, why not Lourdes.

Find me a politician or a banker who repents-now that would be a miracle!

PDN

The Bible says that you reap what you sow.

If you stare at the sun you will get damaged eyes.

santing

trapsagenius wrote: »

What do Christians think of events like Fatima, Lourdes, NDEs , the "miracle of the sun" and so on?Proof of divine intervention or just freak occurrences(or even just lies?).

I don't really know what to think about them to be honest, thats why I'm interested to hear some christian feedback.

You are on dangerous ground here. I believe in the extra-physical - or spiritual realm of reality, and I think humans have a natural, buildin requirement to find meaning in this realm.
So the events you talk about can be explained by drugs, wishful thinking, exhaustion, demonic, "divine interaction", lies etc. It is clear that a message from the BVM is more infallibille than the pope. However, as this is an area which is "prohibit" by God to expiriment with, I would say the source of most of these events is demonic and leading away from a life with God.

homer911

You will get different answers from Protestants and Catholics...

krudler

They all pale in comparison to the holy stone of Clonrickert, its a class 2 relic now I hear

TravelJunkie

trapsagenius wrote: »

What do Christians think of events like Fatima, Lourdes, NDEs , the "miracle of the sun" and so on?Proof of divine intervention or just freak occurrences(or even just lies?).

I don't really know what to think about them to be honest, thats why I'm interested to hear some christian feedback.

P.S-I started a similar thread in the atheist forum.

They may or may not have happened, I haven't looked into it. But if it did, I don't think it came from God. Unless it glorifies christ, I believe a sign and wonder isn't from God. sorry catholic folks.

Stephentlig

I believe in them, but my job as a Christian who believes in them is not to convince you of the miracles, for those who believe no explanation is needed and for those who do not believe no explanation will suffice.

I agree with PDN that anyone who stares at the sun their eyes will be damaged, but the miracle of the sun was predicted at fatima and thousands went to watch it in the pouring rain, in just a few seconds it looked as if the sun were crashing to the ground, and everyone started screaming and running for cover ( as if there was any ) then it stopped, and when they looked around everything was bone dry.

I always discourage people from looking at the sun when coming to Medugorje looking for miracles all the time, for those of us who look for a miracle to occur or even to request it from God offends him. But if the Lord decides to perform a miracle in a certain place to aid the conversion of souls then let it be his will so...

I encourage you to take trips to Fatima, Lourdes, garabandal and Medugorje, I've only ever been to Medugorje though.

my brother was cured at Lourdes as was a neighbour of mine, my neighbour had lukemia and my brother was a celiac. However the miracle our Lady stresses is not in the water, but the persons faith.

Your best bet is to go buy a dvd on Our Lady of Fatima, and buy the song of bernadette which is a good film on Lourdes.

also I invite you to take a look at the writings of Maria valtorta ( the poem of the man God )http://www.valtorta.org/home_defaultpage.asp and Vassula Ryden True Life In God www.tlig.org

Pax Christi
Stephen

mehfesto

Christy Moore said it best:

"just as well she appeared in that field - the next one over was full of rocks"

JimiTime

Stephentlig wrote: »

my brother was cured at Lourdes as was a neighbour of mine, my neighbour had lukemia and my brother was a celiac. However the miracle our Lady stresses is not in the water, but the persons faith.

Could you detail these things for us?

hinault

Stephentlig wrote: »

I believe in them, but my job as a Christian who believes in them is not to convince you of the miracles, for those who believe no explanation is needed and for those who do not believe no explanation will suffice.

I agree with PDN that anyone who stares at the sun their eyes will be damaged, but the miracle of the sun was predicted at fatima and thousands went to watch it in the pouring rain, in just a few seconds it looked as if the sun were crashing to the ground, and everyone started screaming and running for cover ( as if there was any ) then it stopped, and when they looked around everything was bone dry.

I always discourage people from looking at the sun when coming to Medugorje looking for miracles all the time, for those of us who look for a miracle to occur or even to request it from God offends him. But if the Lord decides to perform a miracle in a certain place to aid the conversion of souls then let it be his will so...

I encourage you to take trips to Fatima, Lourdes, garabandal and Medugorje, I've only ever been to Medugorje though.

my brother was cured at Lourdes as was a neighbour of mine, my neighbour had lukemia and my brother was a celiac. However the miracle our Lady stresses is not in the water, but the persons faith.

Your best bet is to go buy a dvd on Our Lady of Fatima, and buy the song of bernadette which is a good film on Lourdes.

also I invite you to take a look at the writings of Maria valtorta ( the poem of the man God )http://www.valtorta.org/home_defaultpage.asp and Vassula Ryden True Life In God www.tlig.org

Pax Christi
Stephen

The fact that people you know were cured of an illness is a great encouragement to those who doubt or who may not believe.
Fantastic to read of cures for ill people.

Thanks for sharing that, Stephen.

wolfsbane

Santing sums it up:

So the events you talk about can be explained by drugs, wishful thinking, exhaustion, demonic, "divine interaction", lies etc.

The NT gives warning of such events:
1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.

2 Thessalonians 2:9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Stephentlig

hinault wrote: »

The fact that people you know were cured of an illness is a great encouragement to those who doubt or who may not believe.
Fantastic to read of cures for ill people.

Thanks for sharing that, Stephen.

Hi Hinault, yes Jesus spoke to Vassula and told her that the last days began at Fatima, and onwards with Garabandal and Medugorje, along with this he gave her scripture to read, to help her understand of these last days and of the opposition the visions and prophets in the last days would undergo, all the kids God chose, and who he sent his Mother ( Queen of Heaven ) to were Children, he chose poverty chastity and obedience, there are many false prophets in the world too so we must always be wary, and be prudent to know the good from the bad, but of course we know them by their fruits and by what they produce, Chastity, poverty and obedience to Holy Mother Church, should ever we come across a prophet who claims to be recieving messages and yet teaches that which is contrary to Holy Mother church is a false one, this is why the church is always careful to understand that which is good and that which is not good. the devil can appear as an angel of white light or even as mary as has happened in the past in places like the Lebanon, and I remember a woman who thought she was seeing St.Mary but when the priest told her to throw holy water at her, the woman ( who wasnt Mary at all ) let out a scream and turned into a demon then disappeared. So when we have a mystical experience ( or think we are having one ) we must always deny it at first and if it grows stronger and produces good fruit then you may procceed to the next step. but we must always be careful.

Acts:2:16 But this is that which was spoken of by the prophet Joel: 17 And it shall come to pass, in the last days, (saith the Lord,) I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams. 18 And upon my servants indeed, and upon my handmaids will I pour out in those days of my spirit, and they shall prophesy.

Isaiah:30:10 Who say to the seers: See not: and to them that behold: Behold not for us those things that are right: speak unto us pleasant things, see errors for us.

Pax Christi
Stephen

Stephentlig

JimiTime wrote: »

Could you detail these things for us?

What kind of details is it you wish to hear Jimi?:)

mdebets

Stephentlig wrote: »

What kind of details is it you wish to hear Jimi?:)

I'm not Jimi, but the most important questions would be, whether they were examined by the Medical Bureau, was their file send to the International Medical Committee of Lourdes, was the result send to the Bishop and did he declare it a miracle? Or is the process ongoing and at what stage is it?

Stephentlig

mdebets wrote: »

I'm not Jimi, but the most important questions would be, whether they were examined by the Medical Bureau, was their file send to the International Medical Committee of Lourdes, was the result send to the Bishop and did he declare it a miracle? Or is the process ongoing and at what stage is it?

Good questions and I'll ask me bro and mother, but as far as I know, it is believed that there were many miracle cures that went unrecorded as well as those that were recorded and proven miracles. I do know that my bro was a celiac and that after been in the baths he came home and his local GP Doctor Martin said it was a miracle cure, for there was no cure. this was back in the late 70's. The other boy my neighbour I dont know much about, but when he came home his lukemia had vanished and he recovered. He was the talk of the street at the time and we all welcomed him home gladly and happily, I was very young at the time.

If you look into it more you'll find many testimonies of those who were cured and I'm sure recorded, but there are many that went unrecorded. I'll have a week look on the net mind you and see what I can fish out.

Pax Christi
Stephentlig

Stephentlig

http://www.lourdes-france.org/index.php?goto_centre=ru&contexte=en&id=907&id_rubrique=907

This is the first link I could find that gives you the PDF doc's on the miracle cures that were recognised and recorded by the Church.

http://www.jstor.org/pss/20505804

And as you can see from the above article many cases were not reported.

Pax Christi
Stephen

mdebets

Stephentlig wrote: »

http://www.lourdes-france.org/index.php?goto_centre=ru&contexte=en&id=907&id_rubrique=907

This is the first link I could find that gives you the PDF doc's on the miracle cures that were recognised and recorded by the Church.

http://www.jstor.org/pss/20505804

And as you can see from the above article many cases were not reported.

Pax Christi
Stephen

Thanks for the links. Your brother and neighbour don't seem to be on the list.

While I do think that miracle cures happen in Lourdes, other than meeting the right doctor who can cure you (actually I'm just a recent convert to this believe after attending a healing service in Christ Church Cathedral), I do have a problem with the statement that many cases were not recorded.
One objection is from a practical point of view. While this statement may be believable in 1922 (the year of the article), I can't believe it to be true in 2010. Today it's so much easier to track the people visiting Lourdes and examin them properly and compare before and after results. The RC Church also would have a big interest in finding as many miracle cures at Lourdes as possible, yet it seems there are less now than there were in the past (more than half of the recorded cases happened in the first 50 years betwee 1858 and 1908, while less than half happened in the following 100 years, the last one happened in 1987). Also if you compare the 67 know cases to the 200 Mio. visitors since 1860, it seems rather a small number that got cured.

My seccond objection would be a more theological one. Why would you need to go to a special place to be healed, why do you have to go to Lourdes. If I understand it correctly (please correct me if I'm wrong), there is no special person praying for you in Lourdes or performing any special act. You just have to go to Lourdes and bath in the water and get cured. Plus you have to have faith in it (as you said before). So why does the healing only happen in Lourdes, but not for example in Dublin, if the person has the same faith.

Stephentlig

Thanks for the links. Your brother and neighbour don't seem to be on the list.

ok but just because many people go without reporting their miracle doesnt mean it didnt happen, many probably dont have the time nor money to hang about I presume. My job is not to convince you they were cured, you either believe they were or were not.

While I do think that miracle cures happen in Lourdes, other than meeting the right doctor who can cure you (actually I'm just a recent convert to this believe after attending a healing service in Christ Church Cathedral), I do have a problem with the statement that many cases were not recorded.
One objection is from a practical point of view. While this statement may be believable in 1922 (the year of the article), I can't believe it to be true in 2010. Today it's so much easier to track the people visiting Lourdes and examin them properly and compare before and after results. The RC Church also would have a big interest in finding as many miracle cures at Lourdes as possible, yet it seems there are less now than there were in the past (more than half of the recorded cases happened in the first 50 years betwee 1858 and 1908, while less than half happened in the following 100 years, the last one happened in 1987). Also if you compare the 67 know cases to the 200 Mio. visitors since 1860, it seems rather a small number that got cured.

I hear what your saying but a person must have faith and if it is in Gods will that they be cured ( even though its just a small number ) then so be it.

My seccond objection would be a more theological one. Why would you need to go to a special place to be healed, why do you have to go to Lourdes. If I understand it correctly (please correct me if I'm wrong), there is no special person praying for you in Lourdes or performing any special act. You just have to go to Lourdes and bath in the water and get cured. Plus you have to have faith in it (as you said before). So why does the healing only happen in Lourdes, but not for example in Dublin, if the person has the same faith.

it is holy ground because it is were our Lady appeared to St.Bernadette, I do believe that our Ladys instructions were for those to wash themselves with the spring and through their faith and by following our ladys instructions be cured by God, but it must ultimately be in his will. the water is Holy but the cure is ultimately in the persons faith.

My brother had to sit in the bath and pray and of course those closest to him would be praying for him also. why doesnt the Lord cure everyone? how should I know? I do not know the mind of the Lord
''For my thoughts are not your thoughts: nor your ways my ways, saith the Lord.'' Isaiah:58:8

Pax Christi
Stephen

Edit: the underlined ''ways my ways'' was not meant to be there, I copied and pasted it from the search engine and those words happened to underlined, just thought I'd let you know incase was percieved as me shouting or arguing.