gun dogs.

dicky82

ok, this thread has probably been done before but il start it again anyway.

why do you use the gun dog that you use??

ie: why a spaniel over a setter? or a setter over a pointer?

lads who use both, which is your favourate type to work with?

and in a more detailed responce why that type of breed. wire hair vs short hair, irish setter vs english setter.

and then what about the less common breeds, gordon setters, spinones, cumberlands, and the brittanys. (im prob wrong to call these less common)

anyway im just curious to hear what yas think. thanks.

deeksofdoom

It depends on what type of shooting your doing and what type of terrain,

if its duck shooting than you want a retriever, e.g. a Labrador

if its thick ditches and loads of cover you need a good hunting dog e.g. a springer

if its big open fields or mountain a pointer or a setter

after that there are the HPRs which hunt point and retrieve e..g. the GWP

In fairness this question is a bit like asking how long is a piece of string, I have a GWP and a springer and I love shooting over both of them. I wouldn't be able to choose one over the other.l

greenpeter

Springer for beating ditches and plan old hard hunting,
love them as a hunting companions and there loyal hard working grafters and a bit of fun.


Got a less common breed (brittany) a few months ago as some of the ground a shoot is veg and hope to make him into vegiedog. Let him work the open ground and please god point

irish setter

i don't think you should get caught up in taging dogs by there breeds. you really only have 4 types, pointing, flushing, retrieving and tracking. but in my experience most dogs that are bred well can do most jobs. naturally the springer won't point but you know what i mean. i've most experience with irish setters and they will do all 4 well and most will hit cover as good as any springer, but a good dog from any breed will do the same. it's not about which breed to choose apart from personal preferences on things like looks and size and maybe energy levels but more about which breeder. for me i like the way the irish setter looks, it's style of hunting, the way it is around young children as i have them, it's playful nature, and the fact it's our native breed. i got into the red and whites because it's our original native setter

dicky82

deeksofdoom wrote: »

In fairness this question is a bit like asking how long is a piece of string,

twice the length from the middle to one end. . . :D

dicky82

greenpeter wrote: »

Springer for beating ditches and plan old hard hunting,
love them as a hunting companions and there loyal hard working grafters and a bit of fun.


Got a less common breed (brittany) a few months ago as some of the ground a shoot is veg and hope to make him into vegiedog. Let him work the open ground and please god point

two great pictures, my missus loves your brittany. . . have you noticed he looks like he has half a mustache?? not slagging your dog i think hes a handsom looking dog.;)

greenpeter

Lob-sided looking

SpringerF

I have seen Springers to "point".
All depends on whether the bird "braves it out or not".


By this I mean a hunting springer that is steady to flush will often stare or point to where a bird is, and often will need a softly spoken word of command to get on.

All my Springers are steady to flush.

For example my shooting partner shot a bird on the second last Sunday of the season from a beet patch.The bird fell about 15 yards from the dog in open grass and then cheekily go up and ran to the ditch in full view of the dog, which was on the drop.

In these cases I would always leave the dog at the drop, waiting and watching the dog for a minute or so after the bird reaches cover. The dog would be staring at the point where the bird entered the cover, I then send the dog for either a retrieve or indeed a second flush, remember the bird has been shot. In this case the dog knows he must either flush the bird a second time or find the bird as a runner.The dog of course also knows he must not chase birds,this is the difference between a flush and a running bird and is in my opinion the cause of the "Pausing Springer".

The above "pausing before flushing" of course would be a disqualification in a trial.

dicky82

greenpeter wrote: »

Lob-sided looking

its like a curled up one, i like it anyway, have you started much work on him? i think mallards said they are quite head strong? have you found this?

dicky82

springerf, i thought i saw this 'pause/point' before but the man who owned the dog told me that it was because the dog was only young and still a little bit usnusre so tended to 'point/pause' a little.

greenpeter

dicky82 wrote: »

its like a curled up one, i like it anyway, have you started much work on him? i think mallards said they are quite head strong? have you found this?

Nothing to formal just recall sit stay thats about it, just letting him be a pup really don't see any point in pressuring him to much to soon.
He is head Strong but so am i so we'll see how that plays out.
Looking forward to the long evenings to get out a bit more.

SpringerF

dicky82 wrote: »

springerf, i thought i saw this 'pause/point' before but the man who owned the dog told me that it was because the dog was only young and still a little bit usnusre so tended to 'point/pause' a little.

Yes that could very well be true I too have seen Springer pups as young as 3-4 months pause at coming across a strong scent/bird.

Over training is another cause of pausing, the dog being unsure/confused as to what is expected of him, of course the wrong type of punishment is the one sure way of causing all problems.

My punishment is, immediatley repeat immediatley the dog digress's shake the finger at him while saying in a hard voice "nah nah nah".

This is a learned punishment, and over a period of a few days any well bred Springer will react to this. Therefore it should never ever be a requirement of any dog trainer to use corporal punishment. I regard dog training collars, these shock things, as corporal punishment.

Of course anyone who does not bond with his pup has already started on the wrong foot.

EPointer=Birdss

SpringerF wrote: »

Therefore it should never ever be a requirement of any dog trainer to use corporal punishment. I regard dog training collars, these shock things, as corporal punishment.

Of course anyone who does not bond with his pup has already started on the wrong foot.

Very general comment there. I have used a e collar very successfully on my pointer.
His nature is such that he would be un trainable without it. He knows well what is wrong from a young age as he is extremely, extremely intelligent & will always challenge as he is an alpha male type dog. He'll continuously push the boundries by his nature, not because he is not trained well as I couldn't count the hours I put into him to shape a rough rough diamond but he just wants to be the boss plain & simple! He was the boss of his litter & dominates all other dogs he meets & is only just turned 2. If he could he would dominate me, he does everyone in the family but me. His way with people is he will go through gaps first, or ly & jump on them or insist on being rubbed etc by pushing up under them. He has tried that with me & gets a clip when he does.
Not hard or anything just putting him in his place in the pack.
I have to rule with tough love as he ignores any other treatment. This go & drive translates to a miller of a hunter.
As a personality he is very loveable & follows me like my shadow. He is a pure softie with smal kids & took the springer pup under his wing from day 1, but now that he is older he has him in his place. When I jog wit the 2 of them, he heels off of my right side & the springer heels off of him. Gas to see but it's a pecking order.
Only the other day he absolutely murdered an old english sheep dog at least 1.5 times his size that went for me when out jogging. Had the ipod on pushing hard on the last mile & didn't even hear him coming til the pointer pulled the lead out of my hand & sent the f****r packing. He is my jogging companion as well as hunting. Not the actions of a dog I haven't bonded with.

When in the field he thinks he knows best. At times he does, but regardless when I give a command I want him to obey. Collar has made a dog of him at such a young age & I would not for a minute think twice about not using it if I could try again as he is a gem for what I want.

Springer then is a really mild little character & needs no collar by his nature. He thrives on encouragement & physical rewards & his coming along nicely as he is.

To the OPs question I was going to make a comment on my breed experiences but I think Irish Setter summed it up quite well with the breeds at a top level but remenber every dog has a different character & this will make different hunters also. :eek:

SpringerF

Any hunting dog that attacks another dog, well the hunting dog needs to be trained. Dogs should be under proper control at all times.
We cannot train a dog to hunt, only how to behave while hunting.

Thats my last word on it and I am not getting into any argument about anything.

EPointer=Birdss

SpringerF wrote: »

Any hunting dog that attacks another dog, well the hunting dog needs to be trained. Dogs should be under proper control at all times.
We cannot train a dog to hunt, only how to behave while hunting.

Thats my last word on it and I am not getting into any argument about anything.

Did you read what I said?
The dog tried to attack me when road running not hunting & regardless if I was playing the fiddle whiles walking on my hands, if a random mutt tried to attack me & my own jumped in I wouldn't go training it out of him!!:eek:. My dog was on a lead running beside me. He pulled the lead out of my hand to protect me because I was oblivious to the whole thing, I'd take that sort of animal over a robot that would lit me get bitten anyday!
As for dominating, that's shaping & mounting til one gives in. I'm sure everyone has seen this a million times with all dogs when the meet each other.

As for arguements, these are debates & opinions.

elius

SpringerF wrote: »

Any hunting dog that attacks another dog, well the hunting dog needs to be trained. Dogs should be under proper control at all times.
We cannot train a dog to hunt, only how to behave while hunting.

Thats my last word on it and I am not getting into any argument about anything.

Not at all. I'm more than happy to let my dog(s) to protect me and my family. Its called a bond. My Gsp is very much a family dog and as i type she's sprawled out in front of the roaring fire and most likely will stay there for the night..If you treat a dog right it will do the same for you. she's also a watch dog and most importantly my field companion with the gun or with out it. This talk of guns dogs needing to be locked up away from family and friends is rubbish. My grandad also a game keeper and a forest manager had gsp's for years and where his best friends they went every where with him from the shop to the local pub for a pint or two, cull dear etc

dicky82

thanks for all the replys lads.

i understand the use of differant breeds for differant types of shooting, what my real querie was lads opinions on dogs they've worked with,

curious as to the traits of differant breeds? like the gsps and the gwps, is it purely the physical appearence that lads favour? or why a german pointer over an english one?

smillar with the setters, english vs irish or gordon etc.
i have read bits and pieces on the traits of lots of dogs, but would like to hear what people have actually found to be the case in the real world. thanks lads.

elius

dicky82 wrote: »

thanks for all the replys lads.

i understand the use of differant breeds for differant types of shooting, what my real querie was lads opinions on dogs they've worked with,

curious as to the traits of differant breeds? like the gsps and the gwps, is it purely the physical appearence that lads favour? or why a german pointer over an english one?

smillar with the setters, english vs irish or gordon etc.
i have read bits and pieces on the traits of lots of dogs, but would like to hear what people have actually found to be the case in the real world. thanks lads.

Ill be honest my grandad had german pointers for yrs i use to love them as a child and still love them today. I also like the way there rather versatile in the field. Don't think id be with out one now regardless if i was shooting or not...

SpringerF

The German Pointer as a rule is an excellent gun dog.
I have had several and have nothing but praise for them.

Then again I have had Red Irish Setters, Red and White Irish setters, English Pointers, Brittany Spaniels, Fox terriers, Fox hounds, English and Welsh Spaniels I really cant remember anymore breeds I have kept over the years for hunting.

My family also have their own choice of pet dogs so the the list gets rather confusing at times because when on their walks my family delight in telling how this Pug or that ****zu put up a bird.

Today I only have the English Springer Spaniel, two retirees two working dogs and two pups still in either growing phase or training.

The ESS suits me fine for several reasons, one the type of ground I have is heavy cover with small patches of beet now, the days of 50 acre beet fields are long gone.

The ESS is an all round dog he does everything and can be trained to do all things , yes he can be trained to track a blood scent,and does this very well.
Of course baying is the issue with blood scents. The ESS is a silent dog.

Over the years I have trained the ESS for just about everything.

One needs to do careful research into the mating of any future partner in hunting, I say partner because it is indeed a partnership, a partnership where there can be only one boss and the boss must be you. Everything from the day one gets the pup to the day he retires is geared towards this. One must be constantly vigiliant with the ESS as they will forever try it on to get the best of you always pushing the boundary's. This is the "thing" with the ESS one must be always on your toes with them.

In return a properly trained ESS will give you 10 years of the best shooting you have ever experienced. Properly trained is itself a subjective statement as it is more correct to say.

What do you expect of the dog ?

locum-motion

SpringerF wrote: »

...how this Pug or that ****zu put up a bird...

Reminds me of an old joke:

What's a shi-tzu?



A zoo with no animals!

dicky82

ah the old one are the best ones. . . . :D

dicky82

cheers sf. i agree fully with your theory on the ess, a friend of mine reckons they should be called 'chancer spaniels':rolleyes:.

i just want my dog to flush game and retreive and enjoy herself really, she seems to be doing all three now,

the springer i think is a cracking dog, im doing alot of thinking about the pointer of some sort a few years dwn the road. . .

Wolfhillbilly

I have two Irish setters and have kept only reds for about the last seven or eight years. I also had a GSP for a while too. I like the look of the Irish setter - I always thought they were a handsome dog. Growing up we would have had just about every type of setter/pointer - English setter, Gordon setter, English pointer, GSP, GWP but I always liked the reds, like the way they hunt, and as someone else said, they are our native breed. My dad would favour the English setters and will often get a dig in when a bit of characteristic red headstrongness comes to the fore in the field. My uncle also bred English setters for years so there's probably been more of them in the house over the years (although he always referred to them as Llewelyn setters).

SpringerF

Lovely dogs.

Respond very well to training especially the soft type of training, positive reinforcement.

I think it was only about the mid 90's that the Llewellin was recognised as a seperate breed from the English setter, must brush up on my English Setter history I havent looked at it in a while now

Spunk84

i prefer a standard poodle excellent dog to hunt with

dicky82

Spunk84 wrote: »

i prefer a standard poodle excellent dog to hunt with

:eek::eek: excuse my ignorance but are you messing here or what??

murphy125

Dicky poodles are gundogs they were used as retrievers

here a link look at the first paragraph in history:D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poodle

dicky82

murphy125 wrote: »

Dicky poodles are gundogs they were used as retrievers

here a link look at the first paragraph in history:D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poodle

makes sense when you consider how simillar to the irish water spaniel that dog in the pic looks, and for some reason i thought i read somewhere that poodles were used as vermin control way back when. .

Spunk84

The poodle is a brilliant dog for pheasant and woodcock, it just not been used here, i dont think i have every seen a poodle in Ireland being used at all. I think its the look of them. But yes dicky im serious poodle is an excellent nose and also as retrieving dog.

Youtube poodle hunting pheasents or poodle working you will see:cool:

or see

www.lakelandhuntingpoodles.com/Hunting.htm

www.redhuntingpoodles.com/hunting.html

Spunk84

uiu.jpg

oik.jpg

po.jpg

poo.jpg

Found some pics

dicky82

how did you end up using the poodle? curiosity? would they be quite a quiet hunter ie tip toeing round like a pointer, or do they gobble up the ground like the springer?

Spunk84

my ex had one so one day i she had no one to look after it, so i was already going out hunting brought the dog out with me made my labs look like a joke :{, there quiet but would flush birds really really good. quiet dog but wont take any bull of any dogs

dicky82

http://www.irishfieldsports.com/hpr/germans.htm

theres actually a pudelpointer on here, ye that other link you sent me said the the lad who brought out his poodle out hunting for the first time was amazed how quick it caught on. . .

is their coat a nightmare to maintain if you are using them in the field? and do you reckon the minitures are would be any use?

elius

Rated number two in the most intelligent dogs list
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Intelligence_of_Dogs

dicky82

ive a feeling that list may spark some heated rebuttle, but delighted to see the rottie in the top ten and the ess not too far behind, .

as the article said though the the tests are somewhat flawed. deffo couldnt imagine my two rotties in the top ten. hahaha. .

terminator2

well im not going hunting with a corgi or a schnauzer my springer would buy and sell them any day;)

dicky82

ye the tests imo wouldnt be a great reflection on the real world activities of a dog.

snipey

just a few photo's of the gordon

staghunter

SpringerF wrote: »

Any hunting dog that attacks another dog, well the hunting dog needs to be trained. Dogs should be under proper control at all times.
We cannot train a dog to hunt, only how to behave while hunting.

Thats my last word on it and I am not getting into any argument about anything.

you can't and shouldn't try to train a dog not to obey it's natural instincts to protect its master from an angressive animal.its any dogs first instict.this doesnt mean the dog will act agressively to every other dog it comes across once well trained properly

deeksofdoom

staghunter wrote: »

you can't and shouldn't try to train a dog not to obey it's natural instincts to protect its master from an angressive animal.its any dogs first instict.this doesnt mean the dog will act agressively to every other dog it comes across once well trained properly

I think your getting your wires crossed, this topic is about gundogs not attack dogs.

staghunter

deeksofdoom wrote: »

I think your getting your wires crossed, this topic is about gundogs not attack dogs.

its a reply to a previous post earlier in the tread

pheasntstalker

i have to say i have no experience with any of the other breeds of gundog as i have only just got my first ess springer last november and im a rookie to the training aswell, but im enjoying the experience , the highs and lows of it all:) i chose a springer as they are a hardy ,loyal,great workers,and brillant with kids,jessie is a family member as well as a gundog, we are both learning and making mistakes but thats the joy of having your own dog ,know that i have her i wouldnt part with her for any money, each to there own i suppose maybe when im greying and the legs arent as nimble i would consider a gentlemans dog thats just my two cents worth