Lets say it how it is . . The biggest threat to Ireland is ourselves . .

Drumpot

To summarise the following book/post . . We can get us out of this mess quicker with a change of attitude, a change of culture and by working harder for less . . How this is done is debatable, Im just giving my two cents view on what I believe is the immediate threat and how we could help ourselves in the longer term . . .

Im not angry with Public servants . . Im angry with the unions . . Im also angry with the government for procrastinating over how to deal with the unions . . I believe the Trade unions threaten our countries future financial stability just as much as the Banks have done so in the past . .

Contrary to some peoples beliefs, the government have not had to engineer a Private v Public divide . . The public service Unions have done it all themselves and it has suited them . . I am disgusted nearly anytime I hear a public service union head on radio as they usually make the weakest/shallow arguments for their cause and do so by completely dismissing the majority of the struggling people in this country (even if they give a token mention to them) . . I know many people who would have more support for public servants cause, only for the Union's disgusting tactics . .

Because a person is a member of the union does not mean that I assume they agree with their unions stance (this is important as I know many public servants who feel misrepresented by the unions)

Everybody has a right to feel upset about salary reductions . . Everybody has a right to defend their own livelihood . . Everybody has a right to protection in their job. However, if you want to argue or defend your corner, its just as important to understand the downside/ramifications of successfully getting your demands met . . If the devil offered you something you desperatly wanted, you would do your research to see what the eventual cost will be down the road for immediate satisfaction . .

Here are some statements that we hear from unions that I (and anybody educated) find offensive, disgusting & delusional born from lack of education/ignorance -


Statement of delusion, you are not in the real world . . 1

"We did not cause the mess" - We all in some way in this country contributed to the mess . . The main doorstep of blame should of course be attributed to the financial regulator, the government (including county councellors who made a complete mess of zoning of land) and the bankers. However, as a society we very much wanted this bubble for our own reasons and we voted in the government that gave us what we wanted during the years the rot started . . That aside, by saying "we did not cause the mess" you completely dismiss the fact that most of the people in this country did not directly cause this mess, but most of us cannot use this as a bat to bring to our employer when pleading with them not to reduce our salary . .

What has this got to do with Union demands in relation to pay for their members ? The government are an employer thats struggling to meet its expenses . . Can you imagine a private sector employee being told they are getting a paycut because the company is struggling . .But Sir, its not my fault we are struggling . . Ah, but thats not really relevant, we cant afford to pay you your current salary . .


Statement of delusion, you are not in the real world . . 2

Sure look at those people in Anglo and other industries that are getting pay increases and havent had paycuts ?

I agree in principle with this question however , what has this got to do with any element of public service pay ? From my understanding the pay increase is due to people in Anglo who are doing more work with a third of the staff, that aside I dont think it has any relevance to the debate of public service paycuts . . Lets look at this from a private sector perspective . . Job Security, pension and benchmarking would have to go out the window . . By all means compare yourself with a similar country with similar problems to ourselves (Piigs & Greece) but dont think that these kind of questions look like anything other then a smokescreen to hide the fact that the unions want all the perks that come with working in the private sector with all the benefits that is afforded (and apparently unappreciated) in the public sector.

In simple terms, its the unions looking over their fence into their neighbours garden and saying "why do they get a bigger house then us" ? But you own your house and they have a mortgage, they took a risk and may end up paying more for the risk they took . . . Unions want their cake, want to eat it and want to have cake left over . .


Statement of delusion, you are not in the real world . . 3

We have money to bail out the banks, why dont we have more money to pay the hard working public servants what they are due ?

We dont have money to bail out the banks . . We are getting loans to do this . . Loans that have been provided with provisions . . The reason we are bailing out the banks is because not doing so would have far more damaging implications on the country . . There are so many more reasons why we should against why we shouldnt (look them up if you actually want to understand ) . . Bailing out the banks in some form (whatever way you look at it) is vital to the stability and future potential growth (and foreign confidence in Ireland) of the country v Keeping public service pay at a level they feel fair . . Overall, this pay discussion only serves public servants pockets initially, but even they themselves could end up far worse in the longterm if (as most educated people expect) the negative ramifications of a salary reversal is realised . .

---

There are plenty more statements of delusion that I have heard that are all ridiculous and dont in anyway prove that paycuts should not happen, they simply sidestep the real reasons why they have to happen . .

The truth is that nearly EVERYBODY working is struggling or feeling pain in some form . . The select few who are not struggling are not a reason why public service salary's should not be cut . . If any of these statements were actually important to unions, then strike for fairness . . Strike for accountability . . Strike for salary cuts for upper paid (overpaid) public servants and Politicians . . But to do that, you need to drop your demands on your own salary . . Therein lies the motivation of the unions (and those who follow them) is nothing to do with what is good for this country, its for themselves . . "Of course its for themselves" I hear somebody say . . Well then dont throw out random comments about how you want fairness, when you completely dismiss the 450k people who dont even have any choices or the other hundreds of thousands who are worried about their own jobs and salaries . . Remember, if the unions get their demands, its the rest of the country that has to pay for it in spades . .

In my opinion, the Unions are currently the biggest risk to this country . . There is a time for unions - When employees are being taken advantage of and are not sharing in a companies success etc . . But now is a time when the country has to get its head down and work harder for less . . The unions are all about more money for their members . . Dont confuse any of their rhetoric for anything other then the Unions justifying their existance . . If they truly want to serve the greater, longer term good of their members they would not encourage any sort of strike or go slow action based on paycut reversal . . If the Unions were in anyway GENUINE about the good of the country and their members, they would be pushing fairness in the correct manner , while educating their members on the importance of cost cutting measures of all sorts. . But becauuse some union members are higher paid public servants the unions are trying to have it every which way they can, and at EVERYBODYS expense . .

Believe me . . If the unions get their way with this rollback on pay WE WILL ALL PAY FOR IT . . Ironically, it has the potential to cost public servants the most if it all goes belly up . .

I actually have the solution to our country's problems . . I really do . . But it requires sacrifices, change of culture and change of attitude on national level . .

1. . In some way ALL public servants take a further 5 - 15% (figures can vary , this is just example) paycut and take a commitement that they will share in the pain aswell as the success of the country going forward . . This has to be done with the realisation that trust is required on part of both parties . . Assumption HAS to be that all will honor agreement with fairness key to this agreement.

2. Private sector levy of 2-5% applies to all private sector employees (paid by employees themselves) . . The monies gathered is to be used for helping people struggling with mortgages or loan repayments (kind of like interest only mortgage repayments) and to help people who have taken substantial paycuts . . This is a social tax designed to help working people in all sectors who are struggling . .

3. Overall, the private and public service sectors have to know their role and accept their are benefits and pitfalls from each job . . We have to promote ourselves as a country that is willing to take drastic measures , make huge sacrifices and work in collaboration to get our country back on track . . We will not fight amongst ourselves, but we will stand together for our country as we know the fruits that will be shared , will far outweigh the scraps we could fight for now . .

I GUARANTEE that ANY international employer looking at a country with this attitude will fall over the next company to get into Ireland and get using our employees . . A nation of hard workers with the right attitude . .



Right now, we are a divided nation with the government having very little idea what to do . . For me personally, I would make more cuts in public service pay . . I would not differentiate between any particular job . . Nurses and Gurda alike are not charities . . They work for pay, not for the good of their health . . It is unfair if we start picking which profession is more important as it makes those who "are not important" feel even more disillusioned and we are ALL in this together . .

I would then offer a social welfare payment to employees of companies struggling to survive . . They do this in Germany and its fantastic . . Credible companies with the clear potential to survive, but who are genuinely struggling , get the social welfare payments (for agreed specified time) that their employees would get were they let go . .

I would Bring in my 2-5% levy for all private sector employees which would be used to help employed people struggling financially (with reasonable applications)

Then I would get a PR company of some sort to go around the world promoting what we had done in our country . . Showing that the Irish People are strong, hard working and very much clued into the importance of collective pain for the greater good . . .

In summary work harder for less (whatever way its done !) with a collective goal of shared prosperity. . That is the ANSWER to our crisis . .

Laminations

I'd agree with most of that but I think the gripe is about fairness, at least my gripe is.

"We did not cause the mess"
Possibly true but irrelevant. Everyone needs to pay now. So when we hear that certain groups are not, be it PS, especially high paid PS or just the high paid in general it seems unfair. When we hear of pay rises in a nationalised bank PAID FOR BY THE TAXPAYER (just like PS pay) it seems unfair. Also the people who are far more responsible as you mentioned - the regulator, government, bank execs. - what pain are they experiencing? Golden handshakes galore! This seems unfair

Sure look at those people in Anglo and other industries that are getting pay increases and havent had paycuts ?
The Anglo crowd are employed by the government, you cant have it both ways, wither the government is a struggling employer (the truth) or it isn't (the fiction). Giving pay rises or reversing cuts for top earners gives credence to the fiction.

We have money to bail out the banks, why dont we have more money to pay the hard working public servants what they are due ?
We borrow money to bail out the banks, we are wasting this money on certain basket case banks. Where is the extra lending, where is the job creation? where is the infrastructural improvements?

The PS need to pay, and have taken a hit already, but for their guaranteed jobs maybe need to give some more. It annoys me however when people direct their anger at the PS rather than the government and banks and regulator. Bertie f***ing Ahern was the benchmarking genius, he made the PS a bloated sector. What pain is he bearing??

People are more than willing to take pain but whether they do it quietly or not comes down to the perception of fairness. If there are people seen not to be taking their share of the pain (for their share of the responsibility) then you get industrial unrest and vilifying the PS only exacerbates the situation.

In summary work harder for less (whatever way its done !) with a collective goal of shared prosperity. . That is the ANSWER to our crisis . .

That doesn't seem to be the mantra in NAMA or Anglo, both paid for by the struggling State = unfairness

ixoy

Laminations wrote: »

Also the people who are far more responsible as you mentioned - the regulator, government, bank execs. - what pain are they experiencing? Golden handshakes galore! This seems unfair

Well to be fair, the employees of the financial regulator also took the same cuts. Or did you mean the lead man? Yeah, that's unfair but on the scale of the debt it's barely a molecule in a drop in the ocean.

We borrow money to bail out the banks, we are wasting this money on certain basket case banks. Where is the extra lending, where is the job creation? where is the infrastructural improvements?

Very valid. One of the biggest gripes I have with FF is an utter lack of direction on how to stimulate the economy. Repeatedly going "smart economcy" is not smart or economic. Wishing it so does not make it happen.

It annoys me however when people direct their anger at the PS rather than the government and banks and regulator. Bertie f***ing Ahern was the benchmarking genius, he made the PS a bloated sector. What pain is he bearing??

Well I blame Bertie for a lot of this - would love to see his pension, or the like, suffer some how. However, surely there's elements of the CS in the mix there too - who advised the government? Ministers don't just invent policy - they do it on the basis of their advisors.
I also think there's plenty of anger at the banks - sure I know a number of people working in branches who suffered a tirade of abuse.

If there are people seen not to be taking their share of the pain (for their share of the responsibility) then you get industrial unrest and vilifying the PS only exacerbates the situation.

A fair point. I think it's the sheer militancy of the industrial unrest over what could be perceived as a relatively minor cut is what's got people's backs up.

Laminations

ixoy wrote: »

Well to be fair, the employees of the financial regulator also took the same cuts. Or did you mean the lead man? Yeah, that's unfair but on the scale of the debt it's barely a molecule in a drop in the ocean.

True. But me taking a pay cut is a molecule in the ocean compared to the scale. Its not about the impact of any individual cut, its about the optics of collectively putting shoulders to the wheel and all taking 'the pain'

ixoy wrote: »

A fair point. I think it's the sheer militancy of the industrial unrest over what could be perceived as a relatively minor cut is what's got people's backs up.

The unions are being this militant out of fear I reckon, most PS know there will not be a reversal, they are angry of the unfairness of cuts and fearful that more 'unfair' cuts will come next budget. I am in no way supportive of the union stance here, I would love to have a permenant pensionable job

pah

Fantastic, Idealistic, Ludicrous. I wish that something like this could be done but how and by who? We don't have the leaders for it.

ixoy

Laminations wrote: »

True. But me taking a pay cut is a molecule in the ocean compared to the scale. Its not about the impact of any individual cut, its about the optics of collectively putting shoulders to the wheel and all taking 'the pain'

True. I think what riles a lot of people is the idea of this pain sharing. Now we all have to pay in some form or another, deservedly or not tax increases are inevitable.
However, some PS/CS workers want private sectors to share equally in the pain/cuts but not share equally in any pain that a private sector's employer may be taking. Essentially, the idea being that if your employer is the government and in trouble you take one hit in the levy/pension whereas if your employer is in the private sector you take that same hit plus whatever cuts your employer needs to make.
Of course many PS/CS workers don't advocate this but we generally hear the union lines on these matters - the moderate workers are far too boring to listen to for media snippets!

The unions are being this militant out of fear I reckon, most PS know there will not be a reversal, they are angry of the unfairness of cuts and fearful that more 'unfair' cuts will come next budget.

Yeah - most I know of, where I've broached the subject, are obviously not happy but understand there's a lot of trouble. The next budget will presumably target all and should be more palatable.

Count Dooku

OP
You should send it as letter to newspaper. Pity that only few dozens of users will see it

Drumpot

Laminations wrote: »

That doesn't seem to be the mantra in NAMA or Anglo, both paid for by the struggling State = unfairness

You see, you are getting confused into believing that the idea of bailing out the banks or NAMA is all about them and nothing to do with us as a nation . . To not bail them out, first of all the liabilities would be a multiple of what they will be under Nama (= more cost to us all immediately) . .

Also, the ramifications of letting the banks go under could be catastrophic for our economy . . Put simply, nobody will want to invest in the likes of Irish Government Bonds and the difficulties in getting credibility back to the country would prolong the recession . . Not only that, we would surely be downgraded as a nation, which would mean we would have to pay more to service our ever increasing debt . . I have never heard any credible alternative to bailing out the banks that doesnt cost billions and cannot have serious ramifications for our country internationally . .

I completely agree that this is all unfair, but the problem that many people have to understand is that we are all in this together and there will be unfairness dished to pretty much everybody . . If we want a joining of all the working class for fairness, it will only happen if public servants actually want mutual fairness for society (as opposed to their own perception of fairness which appears to be all about their employment) . .

I'm not saying that Public servants (generalization for the point, I know there are different thinking people, bare with me!) dont care about anybody but themselves . . Im saying that their unions certainly paint them that way . . And the people who are on media sources talking about how hard they work and how unfair things are only exasperate the situation by making private sector employees feel even more angry/dismayed and confused at how such a protected species (in the current economic climate) can feel so hard done by. We all have bills to pay, many of us have the same problems, but we also have the worry of uncertainty over our jobs (or being able to get back into employment) . . I have said this on other threads . . Its about what your perception of pain is and to a majority of the lower working class in the private sector, the public service are still being brought into the recession . . I'm not saying this is all correct, Im saying this is exactly how it looks and feels to most . .

While this is the case, there will be no unity and this will have to result in self interested groups fighting over scraps that simply are not there . . It will also mean we will continue to have a lame/limp government that doesn't know which side to favor . . Im even more worried about what populist side Labour or FG would take!! .:(

murphaph

Agree, send it to the letters page of some newspapers. Very well put together piece.

I just sent another email to my FF TD to reiterate my support for government action, not inaction. I support cuts in expenditure and a restructuring of the tax net, even if I have to pay more tax. I don't want my country to collapse.

Drumpot

murphaph wrote: »

Agree, send it to the letters page of some newspapers. Very well put together piece.

I just sent another email to my FF TD to reiterate my support for government action, not inaction. I support cuts in expenditure and a restructuring of the tax net, even if I have to pay more tax. I don't want my country to collapse.

Thanks Guys . . I Was looking at sending it in, but would you think its a bit long for them to print ? ? :(

danman

Drumpot,
that was an excellant read, both posts.

I would also agree, most of the PS workers that I know, are against this action.
They have families and friends on the dole and that have had severe cuts too.

I really think it's time that they stood up and spoke out.

Laminations

Drumpot wrote: »

You see, you are getting confused into believing that the idea of bailing out the banks or NAMA is all about them and nothing to do with us as a nation . . To not bail them out, first of all the liabilities would be a multiple of what they will be under Nama (= more cost to us all immediately) . .

Also, the ramifications of letting the banks go under could be catastrophic for our economy . . Put simply, nobody will want to invest in the likes of Irish Government Bonds and the difficulties in getting credibility back to the country would prolong the recession . . Not only that, we would surely be downgraded as a nation, which would mean we would have to pay more to service our ever increasing debt . . I have never heard any credible alternative to bailing out the banks that doesnt cost billions and cannot have serious ramifications for our country internationally . .

Drumpot i dont wanna sound like i disagree with you i dont. We all need to contribute. But saying the banking system needs to be saved is not a justification of pay increases in Anglo or NAMA. I completely agree we need the banks. Saying the country wouldn't survive without the banks is like saying it wouldn't survive without public services, both are true but neither justifies giving out pay increases! The government are doing a terrible job at leading by example. Thats my point i suppose...

Drumpot

Laminations wrote: »

Drumpot i dont wanna sound like i disagree with you i dont. We all need to contribute. But saying the banking system needs to be saved is not a justification of pay increases in Anglo or NAMA. I completely agree we need the banks. Saying the country wouldn't survive without the banks is like saying it wouldn't survive without public services, both are true but neither justifies giving out pay increases! The government are doing a terrible job at leading by example. Thats my point i suppose...

In all fairness I agree that the Anglo pay increases was a stupid move and does nothing for public confidence in the whole affair . . I dont agree with NAMA at all, but I have not heard a credible alternative from any other party that would involve any less pain . .

bytey

what a load of absolute arse ,

you want the people of ireland to fight for their country , when their own leaders could not give a flying fiddlers about them or the country ?

save what ?

the gravy train for the leadership parasites we have ?


wed be better off managed by the UK - at least youd see some fcuking accountability .

this country is worse then fcuked , as its own people have given up , and the govenrment knows it .

Drumpot

bytey wrote: »

what a load of absolute arse ,

you want the people of ireland to fight for their country , when their own leaders could not give a flying fiddlers about them or the country ?

save what ?

the gravy train for the leadership parasites we have ?


wed be better off managed by the UK - at least youd see some fcuking accountability .

this country is worse then fcuked , as its own people have given up , and the govenrment knows it .

If all else fails give up , look across the waters and point at everything they do right . .

You have to crawl before you can walk and you have to start somewhere . .

I understand your disgust and I really share it . . Political culture in this country is a completely different beast but it would have to be a part of our revolution of attitude and culture . . But thats my whole point, we have to change the way we view the world and how we consider choosing our leaders . . Integrity has to be paramount to any politician's mandate . .

Zamboni

Drumpot wrote: »

2. Private sector levy of 2-5% applies to all private sector employees (paid by employees themselves) . . The monies gathered is to be used for helping people struggling with mortgages or loan repayments (kind of like interest only mortgage repayments) and to help people who have taken substantial paycuts . . This is a social tax designed to help working people in all sectors who are struggling . .

I'm all for certain social taxes but this point does not compute.
To me a social tax is a necessity such as healthcare etc. but people who bought houses and consequently find themselves in difficulty made a choice.

Nice post though.

Drumpot

Zamboni wrote: »

I'm all for certain social taxes but this point does not compute.
To me a social tax is a necessity such as healthcare etc. but people who bought houses and consequently find themselves in difficulty made a choice.

Nice post though.

I agree in principle. . However we have to give people a reason to live and give people hope. . I agree people who do not have loans or mortgages should not be penalised for people who did, however, I suppose you could say its a bit of a socialist measure designed to pick up those struggling financially . . About us all being united for a common good and to help us all help each other . .

If you are looking for a tangible reason why struggling house owners should be considered for this measure I suppose you could point to the fact that 40% of the purchase price of houses went directly or indirectly to government coffers that was used for all sorts of funding (including public service pay). So helping people while they are struggling still may never actually cover that 40% that they spent contributing to society . .

My idea is utopian (and prob impossible to implement) but the idea is that we are all in this together and we are all willing to make sacrifices to help out those who are suffering financially and emotionally . . Chances are, if you have no mortgage or loan , you are not financially too bad off (just general assumption!) . .

Im all for bringing the community spirit back into the country. . This will force a change in politics as our beliefs and ideals will HAVE to be mirrored by those in power . . Its not about creating a socialist society, its about creating a happier, more balanced and fair society in the long run . .

SlabMurphy

bytey wrote: »

what a load of absolute arse ,

you want the people of ireland to fight for their country , when their own leaders could not give a flying fiddlers about them or the country ?

save what ?

the gravy train for the leadership parasites we have ?

Agreed.

wed be better off managed by the UK - at least youd see some fcuking accountability .

Some accountability, ever hear of the sexed up reports and Iraq ? Not to mention offical and unoffical state murders in the north for 25 years ?

this country is worse then fcuked , as its own people have given up , and the govenrment knows it .

I'm afraid I have to agree , the people have given up and who can blame them.

Zamboni

Drumpot wrote: »

If you are looking for a tangible reason why struggling house owners should be considered for this measure I suppose you could point to the fact that 40% of the purchase price of houses went directly or indirectly to government coffers that was used for all sorts of funding (including public service pay). So helping people while they are struggling still may never actually cover that 40% that they spent contributing to society . .

Not sure where you get this 40% of purchase price went to government?
40% of an unpaid mortgage is nothing.

Either way this is too socialist for me.
Too many morons made mistakes and I for one don't feel the need to 'unite' with them under a fake flag of patriotism.

Drumpot

Zamboni wrote: »

Not sure where you get this 40% of purchase price went to government?
40% of an unpaid mortgage is nothing.

Either way this is too socialist for me.
Too many morons made mistakes and I for one don't feel the need to 'unite' with them under a fake flag of patriotism.

I remember an economist going through reasons why a NAMA for house owners would not be that unfair on people who didnt require a bailout and this was his biggest arguement.

Admittedly I dont have the figures to hand, but think of the costs involved in building a house and the costs involved in buying a house. All generates revenue for the government through taxes to build, labour involved and taxes from all transactions in purchasing a house . . Doesnt even factor in the purchasing goods to do the house up . . Its a win win situation . .

Remember, if nobody is buying anything in our economy, no money is being made . . You have to generate wealth somehow . . We relied too much on the property bubble, but that doesnt change the fact that the money that was made by the government during that bubble has been used for infrastructure and other public services that we all benefit from . .

old hippy

bytey wrote: »

wed be better off managed by the UK - at least youd see some fcuking accountability .

Trust me, they're as bad here