The trouble we are in now and the cause of it

dean21

THE MESS WE ARE IN-
All of the private sector are to blame for the mess we are in- their obsession with the free unregulated OPEN market took us right into this debacle and now you want public service to pay for all of this. It is similar to the eighties when people had to emigrate and the public sector had to hold the fort and get the country back on its feet again by paying penal taxes.(Remember at that time all the offshore accounts set up by business people in the private sector-all the tax amnesties and all the money collected from same).
There is also some blame to be laid at the door of the public service which I will also deal with.
Private Sector.
1.Banks – goes without saying!!!
2.Insurance People selling life and pension products. People complain about the pension scheme in the public sector, the reason why this pension worked was because it was self funded by the people themselves. They stayed away from the private sector (middlemen)and the way they screw you with their fees for the life of all policies they sold-GANGSTERS!
3.Auctioneers-dropouts from school at an early age but were cute, no formal qualification. Knew how to manipulate people, set one against the other, found out personal financial details about prospective buyers from their friends in the banking sector, and then screwed them for every last cent in the sale.
4.Developers, Builders- Most in this category should be exiled for crimes against the state. Paid little or no tax and vat during the boom, all the money taken in by government was from stamp duty and fees associated with the professions. Most houses ready to fall that were built during the boom, the home bond scheme running out of money with all the claims.
5. All the trades –painters, plumbers, carpenters, electrician, hucksters that charged way over the odds for their labour. Hairdressers €120 for ladies trying to get rid of a few grey hairs. €8 to get a car washed etc etc. Very little tax or vat paid here if any!!
6. IBEC- ISME and all the workers in these companies. Boom time and our private sector workers could not keep up. Had to bring in foreigners to do the work, clogged up the public services with processing these people while keeping our maternity hospitals full at the same time.( Take a look at the ratio of Irish births versus Non national births).
Lowest corporation tax in Europe and you still could not survive. Millions of euro given to private sector to set up their companies (Dell) in Ireland, each person costs the state a fortune in set up costs. State funding for plant and machinery as well. State funding for any person setting up a new business-we encourage entrepreneurs (these are people who left school early and have no idea how to assess risk) by handing out lavish grants and telling them the country is screwed if they do not come up with innovative ideas- we have now reaped the benefit of this type of thinking!!
Now as for good workers in the private sector-most were asleep on shift in Dell. They allowed Polish workers work beside them and then take their jobs – a bunch of losers. The criteria for selection in the private sector during the boom was to ascertain using a thermometer if the person had a temperature close to body temp and a pulse, if they had they were hired.
7. Consultant, GP’s all private medicine- totally out of control with their charges. A visit to a GP –it must be viral, I can recommend a good consultant that will be €60 !!
8. Irish Independent- scum journalism with an anti public service agenda. Now calling for a total boycott from public service workers on buying this rag.

Public Sector
1. Fianna Fail- and all those who voted for them and supported them financially over the past 12yrs.

3. Financial Regulator-who turned a blind eye to the whole sorry mess.
4. Planners –ditto
5. Academic Researchers-waste of millions of euro here as evidenced by the McCarthy report. These people are good at securing funding from the State but come up short on results every time.

So private sector get competitive, pull the finger out and stop whingeing about the public service all the time. After all the public sector has educated you for the most part.( I understand your frustration when you were not able to gain employment in the public service, by fair and open competition, you then had to join the private sector).

Public sector- get rid of Fianna Fail at the earliest opportunity, get rid of all the Managers from the HSE who appear on news bulletins with phoney English accents trying to lie their way out of the mess they have created. (These managers ( career junkies) returned from exile in England in the late 90’s to take the promotions that were due to the hard working people who stayed behind to manage our way out of the crisis in the 80’s)
Take no more bulls** from private sector workers who screwed us all in the good times and thought it would never end!

Count Dooku

dean21 wrote: »

Public Sector
1. Fianna Fail- and all those who voted for them and supported them financially over the past 12yrs.
2. Mary Harney and Professor Drumm- for ruining the health service. No co-incidence both are going to retire soon. I suggest in bygone days both would have been hanged for treason. (This may be difficult to achieve in Harneys case as she has a very thick neck but at least we can be assured that her hair will be done).
3. Financial Regulator-who turned a blind eye to the whole sorry mess.
4. Planners –ditto
5. Academic Researchers-waste of millions of euro here as evidenced by the McCarthy report. These people are good at securing funding from the State but come up short on results every time.

6. Learn how live and provide critical services with decreased to 35 Bn tax take for another 20 years. Get rid of all inefficiencies and time wasters

theg81der

Eh....Yes to all I think!

woodseb

2.Insurance People selling life and pension products. People complain about the pension scheme in the public sector, the reason why this pension worked was because it was self funded by the people themselves. They stayed away from the private sector (middlemen)and the way they screw you with their fees for the life of all policies they sold-GANGSTERS!

wrong, it works because it is subsidised by the taxpayer

Laminations

I do think, and people may go mad at the suggestion, that we should have a national insurance scheme (NIS) where as well as PRSI we can pay for compulsory insurances like home insurance or car insurance or public liability insurance and other business insurances.

Insurance is a mugs game, having a national scheme would allow the year on year profits to be invested in infrastructural and social projects.

http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/30417
http://conservativepatriothq.com/2010/02/13/obscene-health-insurance-company-profits-for-2009/


Maybe (if there is interest) I'll start a separate thread on this idea

bladespin

Wow, you're very good at generalising and handing out blame :rolleyes:

Let the private sector fix the situation we're in then, privatise all public sector jobs, turf out the trouble makers while you're at it and boom, spending down, employment and tax revenue up alakazm all fixed.

Pot Noodle =

Go back to work and stop stirring things we cannot afford you and your time-wasting

The_Honeybadger

2.Insurance People selling life and pension products. People complain about the pension scheme in the public sector, the reason why this pension worked was because it was self funded by the people themselves. They stayed away from the private sector (middlemen)and the way they screw you with their fees for the life of all policies they sold-GANGSTERS!

I stopped reading here, if you are this misinformed about a topic which has been the subject of so much debate over the past few months then I can't imagine there will be anything ground breaking in the rest of the post.

IrishTonyO

I have never seen so many incorrect rants in one post before. Too many to even point out the errors.

stevoman

dean21 wrote: »

THE MESS WE ARE IN-
All of the private sector are to blame for the mess we are in- their obsession with the free unregulated OPEN market took us right into this debacle and now you want public service to pay for all of this. It is similar to the eighties when people had to emigrate and the public sector had to hold the fort and get the country back on its feet again by paying penal taxes.(Remember at that time all the offshore accounts set up by business people in the private sector-all the tax amnesties and all the money collected from same).
There is also some blame to be laid at the door of the public service which I will also deal with.
Private Sector.
1.Banks – goes without saying!!!
2.Insurance People selling life and pension products. People complain about the pension scheme in the public sector, the reason why this pension worked was because it was self funded by the people themselves. They stayed away from the private sector (middlemen)and the way they screw you with their fees for the life of all policies they sold-GANGSTERS!
3.Auctioneers-dropouts from school at an early age but were cute, no formal qualification. Knew how to manipulate people, set one against the other, found out personal financial details about prospective buyers from their friends in the banking sector, and then screwed them for every last cent in the sale.
4.Developers, Builders- Most in this category should be exiled for crimes against the state. Paid little or no tax and vat during the boom, all the money taken in by government was from stamp duty and fees associated with the professions. Most houses ready to fall that were built during the boom, the home bond scheme running out of money with all the claims.
5. All the trades –painters, plumbers, carpenters, electrician, hucksters that charged way over the odds for their labour. Hairdressers €120 for ladies trying to get rid of a few grey hairs. €8 to get a car washed etc etc. Very little tax or vat paid here if any!!
6. IBEC- ISME and all the workers in these companies. Boom time and our private sector workers could not keep up. Had to bring in foreigners to do the work, clogged up the public services with processing these people while keeping our maternity hospitals full at the same time.( Take a look at the ratio of Irish births versus Non national births).
Lowest corporation tax in Europe and you still could not survive. Millions of euro given to private sector to set up their companies (Dell) in Ireland, each person costs the state a fortune in set up costs. State funding for plant and machinery as well. State funding for any person setting up a new business-we encourage entrepreneurs (these are people who left school early and have no idea how to assess risk) by handing out lavish grants and telling them the country is screwed if they do not come up with innovative ideas- we have now reaped the benefit of this type of thinking!!
Now as for good workers in the private sector-most were asleep on shift in Dell. They allowed Polish workers work beside them and then take their jobs – a bunch of losers. The criteria for selection in the private sector during the boom was to ascertain using a thermometer if the person had a temperature close to body temp and a pulse, if they had they were hired.
7. Consultant, GP’s all private medicine- totally out of control with their charges. A visit to a GP –it must be viral, I can recommend a good consultant that will be €60 !!
8. Irish Independent- scum journalism with an anti public service agenda. Now calling for a total boycott from public service workers on buying this rag.

Public Sector
1. Fianna Fail- and all those who voted for them and supported them financially over the past 12yrs.
2. Mary Harney and Professor Drumm- for ruining the health service. No co-incidence both are going to retire soon. I suggest in bygone days both would have been hanged for treason. (This may be difficult to achieve in Harneys case as she has a very thick neck but at least we can be assured that her hair will be done).
3. Financial Regulator-who turned a blind eye to the whole sorry mess.
4. Planners –ditto
5. Academic Researchers-waste of millions of euro here as evidenced by the McCarthy report. These people are good at securing funding from the State but come up short on results every time.

So private sector get competitive, pull the finger out and stop whingeing about the public service all the time. After all the public sector has educated you for the most part.( I understand your frustration when you were not able to gain employment in the public service, by fair and open competition, you then had to join the private sector).

Public sector- get rid of Fianna Fail at the earliest opportunity, get rid of all the Managers from the HSE who appear on news bulletins with phoney English accents trying to lie their way out of the mess they have created. (These managers ( career junkies) returned from exile in England in the late 90’s to take the promotions that were due to the hard working people who stayed behind to manage our way out of the crisis in the 80’s)
Take no more bulls** from private sector workers who screwed us all in the good times and thought it would never end!

Dean, i take on all your points, but unless you come onto this forum to cry and moan and whinge about the public sector, nobody wants to know, beacuse thats all that goes on here .

MagicSean

stevoman wrote: »

Dean, i take on all your points, but unless you come onto this forum to cry and moan and whinge about the public sector, nobody wants to know, beacuse thats all that goes on here .

You have to be a sucker for media spin too.

Grumpypants

Its very simple people bought stuff with money they didnt have. Now they have to pay for it!

IrishTonyO

stevoman wrote: »

Dean, i take on all your points, but unless you come onto this forum to cry and moan and whinge about the public sector, nobody wants to know, beacuse thats all that goes on here .

Boards is open to all, if you find that most complain about the PS, then you will find it a good indication of the public's feeling in the subject

bamboozle

private sector responsible for all of this?

well in case you are confused, Bertie Ahern, Charlie McCreevy, Brian Cowan and Patrick Neary are/were all public servants.

If Financial Regulator had done its job the banks would have been kept in tow.
If the government had done their job they would have deflated the property market rather than continue to inflate it through tax breaks etc etc.

In a properly functioning economy companies seek to make profits, governments & govt bodies ensure regulation is in place and adhered to to ensure no laws are broken.

Please take off your public sector blinkers.

woodseb

bamboozle wrote: »

private sector responsible for all of this?

well in case you are confused, Bertie Ahern, Charlie McCreevy, Brian Cowan and Patrick Neary are/were all public servants.

If Financial Regulator had done its job the banks would have been kept in tow.
If the government had done their job they would have deflated the property market rather than continue to inflate it through tax breaks etc etc.

In a property functioning economy companies seek to make profits, governments & govt bodies ensure regulation is in place and adhered to to ensure no laws are broken.

Please take off your public sector blinkers.

freudian slip?:D

sceptre

stevoman wrote: »

Dean, i take on all your points, but unless you come onto this forum to cry and moan and whinge about the public sector, nobody wants to know, beacuse thats all that goes on here .

Given that you're a moderator on another boards forum stevoman, you'll be acutely aware that there's no issue whatever with you discussing the tone or running of the forum with us at any time by PM or in the stickied thread marked "a discussion on the rules". If you weren't aware of this before, I hope you are now:). That aside, there tend to be viewpoints here on both sides of most issues, including many things to do with the public sector as the threads will show, many of them in the Irish Economy subforum as you can see. I like viewpoints on both sides of issues, always have. Suggestions always welcome by PM, I get a few each week and you're more than welcome to get in touch. In the meantime, rest assured that there are many threads that are not about the public sector and many public sector threads where numerous points of view (including "both sides") are represented.


I've edited out one line of blatant libel by the OP. Dean21, please be aware that while your post may be better suited to the ranting and raving forum considering the chunks of it that are nothing do do with politics, it's acceptable to discus the political bits here. But if you want to libel anyone, politician or non-politician, in the way you have, do it on your own website or blog where it's entirely your responsibility, not ours.

ixoy

Did nobody in the public sector buy a house? It seems only private sector did according to these rants.

gurramok

dean21 wrote:

It is similar to the eighties when people had to emigrate and the public sector had to hold the fort and get the country back on its feet again by paying penal taxes.(Remember at that time all the offshore accounts set up by business people in the private sector-all the tax amnesties and all the money collected from same).

Are you really 21? Perhaps you are too young to remember what it was like as perhaps you were not born then.

High penal taxes were there in the 80s to pay for an over bloated public service with the obvious results like misery for everyone else. Groundhog day.

Absolutely amazing that when FF 'took' on the public sector to correct the deficit and lowered taxes for the private sector post '87 that the economy started to grow. Groundhog Day.

Read a history book.

gurramok

ixoy wrote: »

Did nobody in the public sector buy a house? It seems only private sector did according to these rants.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0325/pay.html

Speaking ahead of the conference, CPSU executive member Terry Kelleher said his members were losing their houses while the Government was looking after the bankers.

They overpaid for houses and want us to bail them out.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

dean21

Thanks for the input
From reading them it look like the private sector spend more time on boards than doing anything else to get us out of trouble

Pot Noodle =

Are you still in work or doing overtime

dan_d

dean21 wrote: »

THE MESS WE ARE IN-
All of the private sector are to blame for the mess we are in- their obsession with the free unregulated OPEN market took us right into this debacle and now you want public service to pay for all of this.

That is an amazing statement.

Sooooo....by your logic everyone in the country should work in the public sector. Because, well, the private sector and it's workings are wrong. Therefore all the people in it should get out or be jailed, leaving public sector workers only, to run an....empty country??

You've madly thrown blame at every single person in the country, and for some reason proceeded to assure us that every member of the PS is entirely blameless...except the consultants....or something.

Bewildering.

granite man

Probably still at work doing their work to rule bit. Not much sympathy from here I'm afraid.

PeakOutput

nice rant

complete bollix most of it and there is still no money to pay you so tough ****

SeanW

dean21 wrote: »

Take no more bulls** from private sector workers who screwed us all in the good times and thought it would never end!

So the private sector workers "screwed" you by funding your no-co-pay pension, absolute security of tenure, pay raises continuously exceeding the rate of inflation, as well as suffered the inexcusable inadequacies of the services because you are lucky enough to have 19th inefficient work practices, luxurious demarcation lines, inflexible limited contracts.

I still remember waiting 10 months for a driving test (and I was lucky, it was over a year in some places) because the poxy PS union threatened industrial chaos if the gov't brought in private testers and demanded that the only solution be to pay their members more overtime. In the end, SGS got a short term contract where they performed tests for half the cost of the PS mafia.

Truly, my heart bleeds for you :mad:

Now as for good workers in the private sector-most were asleep on shift in Dell. They allowed Polish workers work beside them and then take their jobs – a bunch of losers.

Guess who is (was?) paying your wages? that's right, the person "asleep" in Dell and other parts of the private sector that have to live with economic reality, and are now lucky if they still have a job, while you lot can throw your toys out of the pram and demand full pay for not even doing what's in your contract (like the people in the Passport offices).

But of course, you don't have to live with economic reality right? I guess you think the private sector and the unemployed should be robbed with a 9 pound hammer to keep you in Celtic Tiger era pay and conditions?

sceptre

Far too much heat and far too little light in this thread folks, as can be seen from the multiple cards issued, including one or two to normally quite rational forum members. We need far more light and no heat please. Kindly interpret that as a strong instruction.

/mod

Citizen_Cutback

Dean21 wrote:

Insurance People selling life and pension products. People complain about the pension scheme in the public sector, the reason why this pension worked was because it was self funded by the people themselves. They stayed away from the private sector (middlemen)and the way they screw you with their fees for the life of all policies they sold-GANGSTERS!
wrong, it works because it is subsidised by the taxpayer

woodseb wrote: »

wrong, it works because it is subsidised by the taxpayer

The point being made here is that Public sector pensions are currently self-financing from the pension contributions made by serving Public Servants.

Civil Servants pay and conditions traditionally allowed for a pension on a non contributory basis.

Public Servants traditionally paid at least 6.5% of their salary in pension contributions.

What Private Sector employee in a company pension scheme does not get their pension subsidised by their employer?

Private Sector pensions usually allowed for a defined benefit of a maximum of 66% of final salary.

Public Sector pensions allow for a defined benefit of a maximum of 50% of final salary.

The crux of the issue is that there was no loss of funds for Civil/Public Servant pensions last year (in fact there was a theoretical increase in funding due to the pension levy) whereas the Irish Private sector pension funds were decimated by 34% by poor Pension Manager decisions. (Fact!)

The Irish Pension industry is the elephant in the room and is only second to the Irish banks in it's destruction of wealth. This fact has been entirely missed by the media and the government. (As this is a Politics and Economics forum I feel I have said enough here but this topic deserves a thread of it's own in another forum).