Mates bus driving dad - wages

Shmee

I was having a chat with him a while ago and he happened to mention the cuts to his wage and exactly what they were... all in all he's down over 200 euro a week from what he was on previously. Obviously recession and all that means it was inevitable... however, what happens when the economy begins to pick up again. Will he get back to the wage he was on before, that he spent years working to reach..? or is it tough luck till further notice??

paulm17781

Shmee wrote: »

I was having a chat with him a while ago and he happened to mention the cuts to his wage and exactly what they were... all in all he's down over 200 euro a week from what he was on previously. Obviously recession and all that means it was inevitable... however, what happens when the economy begins to pick up again. Will he get back to the wage he was on before, that he spent years working to reach..? or is it tough luck till further notice??

Probably tough luck forever. Everyone in this country is overpaid, we never had a real economy to speak of, it was all luck and credit. I've taken a couple of pay cuts in the last year. I hated each and everyone of them but we need to get realistic in this country and accept that our economy was unsustainable.

gurramok

"down 200 quid a week'

From what level? If it was 500 quid a week, its savage. If it was 800 a week, then he is still doing quite well.

corktina

i imagine most of that is loss of overtime isnt it? I've never been a fan of wages massively inflated by over time.

Poster King

We (nearly) all had it too good for too long and got used to it. Reality check now and some people just won't accept it. Yes, I know the government made a bollix is the economy. Lessons to be learned. Now lets build an economy on sustainable industries.

Shmee

He said the money lost was shift work pay and something to do with travel maybe im really not too sure. I know no matter what i say there will always be some to say 'well theres other people worse off' but 600 euro a week to raise a family of 4 and a wife is pretty tough. kinda leaves him with no choice but to get government assistance. Otherwise bye bye house...

600 euro to a single man may well mean he's "still doing quite well" . . . but he's not... It's all relative really :S

gurramok

Shmee wrote: »

He said the money lost was shift work pay and something to do with travel maybe im really not too sure. I know no matter what i say there will always be some to say 'well theres other people worse off' but 600 euro a week to raise a family of 4 and a wife is pretty tough. kinda leaves him with no choice but to get government assistance. Otherwise bye bye house...

600 euro to a single man may well mean he's "still doing quite well" . . . but he's not... It's all relative really :S

Wife not working or contributing? Mortgage size applies to quality of life too. Kids should get generous welfare too.

Seems like the old way of raising a family on a single income with 3 dependents. (not criticising this)

foggy_lad

Shmee wrote: »

He said the money lost was shift work pay and something to do with travel maybe im really not too sure. I know no matter what i say there will always be some to say 'well theres other people worse off' but 600 euro a week to raise a family of 4 and a wife is pretty tough. kinda leaves him with no choice but to get government assistance. Otherwise bye bye house...

600 euro to a single man may well mean he's "still doing quite well" . . . but he's not... It's all relative really :S

bus drivers lost the money they were being paid to drive the bussess back to dublin from the four corners of the country late at night! they also lost out on the large shift allowances they were getting. all these cuts are for money they did not deserve anyway and who is to blame because people got massive mortgages based on inflated earnings?

stepbar

For a semi skilled job its an utter scandal the wages some dublin bus drivers earn. I've seen p60's with anywhere from 50-70k on them in the good days. IMO a bus driver should earn no more than 30k p.a max.

foggy_lad

i am not having a go at bus drivers but at the fools in CIE that allowed their wages inflate to unsustainable levels.

corktina

stepbar wrote: »

For a semi skilled job its an utter scandal the wages some dublin bus drivers earn. I've seen p60's with anywhere from 50-70k on them in the good days. IMO a bus driver should earn no more than 30k p.a max.

Its a skilled job ,with responsibility for dozens of lives all the time.€30k would seem a bit low to me but as a BASIC would be grand. The 50 to 70k you quote probably includes massive overtime and rest day work as the bus industry seems to traditionally operate this way (not a good idea imho)

MaceFace

corktina wrote: »

Its a skilled job ,with responsibility for dozens of lives all the time.€30k would seem a bit low to me but as a BASIC would be grand. The 50 to 70k you quote probably includes massive overtime and rest day work as the bus industry seems to traditionally operate this way (not a good idea imho)

Hey, I work in IT developing software that is used in hospitals and airplanes. Am I responsible for hundreds, if not thousands of lives?

Honestly, its a low skill job because you could train up a replacement in a couple of days, and unfortunately, in this day and age, with a large influx of people into the country who are willing to do these jobs for less money, the natives need to adapt or move on. After all, why should we pay you mates dad more money than we have to?

(and btw, I have total sympathy for this man and his family. Real hard times for many people)

AlekSmart

Its a skilled job ,with responsibility for dozens of lives all the time.€30k would seem a bit low to me but as a BASIC would be grand. The 50 to 70k you quote probably includes massive overtime and rest day work as the bus industry seems to traditionally operate this way

Well spotted Corktina.

It also needs to be recognized that the "Professionalization" of Bus/Coach Driving is now and has been for some time Official Government and EU Policy.

The steady ongoing tightening of Driving and Performance standards under the guise of Safety Related improvements is but one indicator of this.

In case foggy lad or others might think this to be a particularly Irish conspiracy,it`s not but merely part of an EU wide push to raise standards in a notoriously poorly remunerated industry.

In Ireland as in elsewhere the general pressure on wages is now downward,however as Corktina points out the €50-€70K figures mentioned would apply to very few Bus/Coach drivers and would have included substantial overtime,now no longer available following the implimentation of the EU Working Time Directive in 2008/9.

It`s worth noting that following their recent new agreement with Veolia,Dublins Luas drivers now have a €36K entry level for a far more automated and non-public facing role.

That €36K figure is probably the most realistic reference point for the Public Transport Operations element these days and for sure it`s on or about the maximum in most cases.

Just as each year the Media focus on the single Garda who managed to earn €150,000 in Wages,Allowances AND Overtime it should hardly surprise anybody when the thousands of Busdrivers who do NOT do overtime,and never did,are totally ignored in the rush to light the bonfire.

bus drivers lost the money they were being paid to drive the bussess back to dublin from the four corners of the country late at night! they also lost out on the large shift allowances they were getting.

Assuming Foggy Lad to be referring to Bus Eireann,he`ll be happy to know that following the companys last re-structuring a far higher number of vehicles were out-stationed from Dublin,meaning the lost mileage associated with this positioning was much reduced.

The large shift allowances mentioned are well within the shift norms for blue-collar workers at 16% or less and many static,IE long-day drivers recieve no shift-pay at all.

Remember shift-work in Public Transport terms really is the epitomy of the term,with spreads between 03.30 starts and 0130 finishes being quite normal.

There is little point in attempting to professionalize an industry whilst simultaneously attempting to decrease the net worth being aplied to those who perform within it....just ask the Captain Sullenberger of Hudson River 737 fame.

AlekSmart

Honestly, its a low skill job because you could train up a replacement in a couple of days, and unfortunately, in this day and age, with a large influx of people into the country who are willing to do these jobs for less money,

Indeed I remember thinking that myself many years back and then discovering it was just a teensy weeny bit more difficult.....but,bring them on..:)

As to the second point,I`m just not so sure about that availability at all,and certainly when the dreaded shift-work element is taken on board that number thins out dramatically.

Very few folks,Foreign or Irish appear to relish working Late Week-Ends on a regular and ongoing basis.....but hey,thats when the service is most appreciated ain`t it...Just ask any friendly Taxi Driver

Wishbone Ash

MaceFace wrote: »

you could train up a replacement in a couple of days

mmmmm.........Apply for category D Theory Test, study for and pass Theory Test, pass full medical examination, apply for category D Learner Permit, take lessons, apply for and do lessons and test associated with Certificate of Professional Competency, apply for driving test, go on waiting list, pass driving test and obtain Certificate and then apply for a D Driving Licence.

In a "couple of days"???? :eek:


EDIT: ...and that's assuming the prospective candidate has a full category B licence to start with.

MaceFace

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

mmmmm.........Apply for category D Theory Test, study for and pass Theory Test, pass full medical examination, apply for category D Learner Permit, take lessons, apply for and do lessons and test associated with Certificate of Professional Competency, apply for driving test, go on waiting list, pass driving test and obtain Certificate and then apply for a D Driving Licence.

In a "couple of days"???? :eek:


EDIT: ...and that's assuming the prospective candidate has a full category B licence to start with.

Ah, now I didn't say you could deal with the bureaucracy in a couple of days, just that you could train a person to drive a bus in a couple of days.

Seriously, it has a steering wheel and some pedals, and after a couple of days, they could just about manage to drive a bus on many of our major roads, but come on, how hard can it be?

Are there any rules that say a bus driver must have a certain number of hours driving before they can go out by themselves?

Publicdiservice

By MaceFace's own logic anybody who can physically turn on a PC and operate a keyboard could just about design software then, no?
I for one would not like to be travelling on a bus with an unlicensed unskilled driver.

subway

Publicdiservice wrote: »

By MaceFace's own logic anybody who can physically turn on a PC and operate a keyboard could just about design software then, no?
I for one would not like to be travelling on a bus with an unlicensed unskilled driver.

forgetting about all the silly arguments being made (software design equated to turning on a pc!!!, that might make sense if you were equating driving a bus with repairing an engine)

bus driver average salary in the UK http://www.mysalary.co.uk/average-salary/Bus_Driver_366

what differntiates a bus driver in ireland vs one in the UK.
other than that everything, from shoelaces to houses to performance cars are ridicoulousy over priced in ireland?

wages / dole & prices need to drop for everything, some will happen sooner than others.

Crazy Taxi

stepbar wrote: »

For a semi skilled job its an utter scandal the wages some dublin bus drivers earn. I've seen p60's with anywhere from 50-70k on them in the good days. IMO a bus driver should earn no more than 30k p.a max.

Sorry chief but bus driving is counted as "skilled" not semi skilled.
A bus could have close to 100 people on it and only one person is keeping them safe.
I know some of Dublin Bus's drivers shouldn't be let push barrows but privately trained bus drivers are a cut above that.
Have you ever driven a bus or large vehicle?

MaceFace

Publicdiservice wrote: »

By MaceFace's own logic anybody who can physically turn on a PC and operate a keyboard could just about design software then, no?
I for one would not like to be travelling on a bus with an unlicensed unskilled driver.

Most people can write software like most people can drive a bus.
To be a good software developer, the market says you need a degree which is four years of full time specialised education.

Assume I want to work for Dublin bus, how many hours/days/weeks do I need to spend in a classroom, and how many hours of training in a bus do I need to do before I can hit the street?

bk

Publicdiservice wrote: »

By MaceFace's own logic anybody who can physically turn on a PC and operate a keyboard could just about design software then, no?

Sorry OT, but the best way to learn programming is to NOT turn on a computer for the first 6 months.

Seriously it is mostly theory, logic and maths. When developing software, most of the actual design is done on a white board and in the specs and design docs. Doing the actual typing is only the very last step.

Most people can write software like most people can drive a bus.

BTW again OT, but in my experience in software engineering, most people can't write software. It takes a certain set of skills and a certain type of personality and mindset, a logical, problem solver type mindset with a touch of OCD.

This is clearly shown in universities where Computer Science tends to have the highest drop out rates of all courses, well over 50%. It is quiet different to how most people imagine it.

veryangryman

MaceFace wrote: »

Most people can write software like most people can drive a bus.
To be a good software developer, the market says you need a degree which is four years of full time specialised education.

Assume I want to work for Dublin bus, how many hours/days/weeks do I need to spend in a classroom, and how many hours of training in a bus do I need to do before I can hit the street?

+1

I have to say that anyone who thinks a bus driver is worth their wage has their own agenda (cough crazy taxi cough)

Im sorry but there is no way in hell you can call it a skilled job. Training for all those license does not make you skilled. Licenses are designed as a money making exercise for the government. We all know it, its just not said

If i wanted to change career and drive for Dublin Bus, im pretty sure i could be driving you to work within a year. The reverse is not true. I couldnt engineer software after a years training

cdebru

subway wrote: »

forgetting about all the silly arguments being made (software design equated to turning on a pc!!!, that might make sense if you were equating driving a bus with repairing an engine)

bus driver average salary in the UK http://www.mysalary.co.uk/average-salary/Bus_Driver_366

what differntiates a bus driver in ireland vs one in the UK.
other than that everything, from shoelaces to houses to performance cars are ridicoulousy over priced in ireland?

wages / dole & prices need to drop for everything, some will happen sooner than others.

Sorry but your link is absolutely worthless if you read below that it says in 2008 the average salary for that job was listed as £18,000 and in 2009 it jumped to 23,800 a jump of 32% it is based on 55 respondents so it is less than worthless.

Also comparing UK wages to Irish wages has been skewed by the drop in the value of sterling so £23,000 now is only about €25,500 euro but 2 years ago before the arse dropped out of sterling it would equate to about €34,000 which would be about the basic salary of an bus driver here.

This is a common trick used here and in the media regularly to attack wage levels in the 26 counties.

everyday taxi

stepbar wrote: »

For a semi skilled job its an utter scandal the wages some dublin bus drivers earn. I've seen p60's with anywhere from 50-70k on them in the good days. IMO a bus driver should earn no more than 30k p.a max.

I wouldnt agree with your view. These people carry up to 50 or 60 passengers at a time. Thats alot of responibility. They generally have excellent records for safety. I dont think someone who pushes a pen should be on 50k plus, sometimes in excess of 100 - 200k.
People talk of highly or lowly skilled jobs, i dont think this alone should determine a salary. As i pointed out, responsibility should be on that list of determining a persons wage.

subway

the only real determinants of salary are:
how many people can do the job vs how many jobs availble
how good you are vs how good other people are

for job security you need to consider the barriers for entry, how long it will take someone to equal your ability and in that regard does your ability improve with experience

in relation to the survey, its the first link i could find, if you have a better/worse source i would be happy to read it. i wont make any comment on the "26 counties" piece

everyday taxi

subway wrote: »

the only real determinants of salary are:
how many people can do the job vs how many jobs availble
how good you are vs how good other people are

for job security you need to consider the barriers for entry, how long it will take someone to equal your ability and in that regard does your ability improve with experience

in relation to the survey, its the first link i could find, if you have a better/worse source i would be happy to read it. i wont make any comment on the "26 counties" piece

So politicians and bankers essentially should all be sacked. :rolleyes:

stepbar

Crazy Taxi wrote: »

Sorry chief but bus driving is counted as "skilled" not semi skilled.

Bull crap.

You don't need much brain power to drive a bus. However it takes "some" skill to operate the controls and make sure you don't crash the bloody thing. Hence the term "semi skilled".

Anyone that even tried to argue any different is not on this planet.

Wishbone Ash

MaceFace wrote: »

Hey, I work in IT developing software that is used in hospitals and airplanes. Am I responsible for hundreds, if not thousands of lives?

If you go to inquests following accidental/sudden/unusual deaths, you'll regularly hear certain categories of employees being called to give evidence. Gardai, firefighters, paramedics, nurses, doctors, bus drivers, taxi drivers, truck drivers etc.

I have never heard of a computer software designer being called to give evidence in a sudden hospital death even though you claim that they could be responsible for thousands of lives.

Wishbone Ash

stepbar wrote: »

You don't need much brain power to drive a bus. However it takes "some" skill to operate the controls

Operating the controls is a very minor aspect of driving a large vehicle. 'Reading' the road and a constant awareness of safety are much more important aspects. It's relatively easy to physically operate a bus but gaining valuable experience and learning from it takes years.

soden12

stepbar wrote: »

Bull crap.

You don't need much brain power to drive a bus. However it takes "some" skill to operate the controls and make sure you don't crash the bloody thing. Hence the term "semi skilled".

Anyone that even tried to argue any different is not on this planet.

You mean its like being a banker really - an over-rated job that could be performed by retired bus conductors with less mistakes that the current crop. At least the buses run every day at useful times..

Seems strange to me the way certain groups always think that the _other_ group is overpaid.

I don't see any Dublin Bus staff getting sneaky payrises . The UK seems to have tremendous staff turnover on the buses which must be due to poor overall conditions.

stepbar

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

Operating the controls is a very minor aspect of driving a large vehicle. 'Reading' the road and a constant awareness of safety are much more important aspects. It's relatively easy to physically operate a bus but gaining valuable experience and learning from it takes years.

you missed a bit there....

stepbar wrote:

...and make sure you don't crash the bloody thing.

Not a lot different to what you would do in a car.

2 stroke

veryangryman wrote: »

If i wanted to change career and drive for Dublin Bus, im pretty sure i could be driving you to work within a year. The reverse is not true. I couldnt engineer software after a years training

Please don't. In my experience software engineers try out their product until it stops crashing, not a good way to drive a bus.

A_Border_Bandit

If they're able to cut €200, Dublin Bus must've been paying well...

spareman

A_Border_Bandit wrote: »

If they're able to cut €200, Dublin Bus must've been paying well...

That was overtime they cut, basic pay not great, put it this way, Im about €100 a week better off working than I would be claiming the dole. €20 a day...must remember that the next time the 4am alarm clock goes off.

dearg lady

ah I love peoples opinions on what others 'should' get paid. I saw the scales few years ago and it seemed like a reasonable wage for the level of responsibility and horrendously unsocial hours.

bk

spareman wrote: »

That was overtime they cut, basic pay not great, put it this way, Im about €100 a week better off working than I would be claiming the dole. €20 a day...must remember that the next time the 4am alarm clock goes off.

I wonder if this is more of an argument for our dole being far too generous.

corktina

the dole arguement is never of any credence....you dont get it forever you know...313 days, then you have to go beg (unless your other half works, then you can go hang...)

spareman

corktina wrote: »

the dole arguement is never of any credence....you dont get it forever you know...313 days, then you have to go beg (unless your other half works, then you can go hang...)

I based above on a friend of mine with the same number of children as me and he has been officially unemployed for the past 10 years or so and comes out with €140 less than me a week, Therefore I work 39 hour week for €140, he also does the odd nixer cash into the hand and ends up with more money than me, system dont make sense.

corktina

but you can hold your head up as paying your way whereas anyone who didnt work through the boom years whilst claiming to be searching for work is surely a scrounger....

SickCert

A_Border_Bandit wrote: »

If they're able to cut €200, Dublin Bus must've been paying well...

Until recent work changes (48hr week) certain lads were knocking in 80hr weeks and cleaning up, many others in the 50/60hr bracket. These boys are down 200/300 per week.
The family man doing his 39hrs a week is still on the basic.

subway

everyday taxi wrote: »

So politicians and bankers essentially should all be sacked. :rolleyes:

well, thats up to their employers isnt it?
would you disagree that "bankers" & "politcians" wages should be cut?
i personally think they could do with a reduction

you mentioned "sacking" but im talking about cuts. if there are less jobs available or someone better then they should get the sack.
that up to their employers though. oh wait, irish people keep voting the same families into power who wont sack the bankers or cut their wages so i guess we are getting what we want?
lets see at the next election