All-Out Strike To Be Undertaken By Fire Fighters

Sierra Oscar

Full time Fire Fighters plan to hold an all out strike next month over pay and work conditions.

What are peoples opinions on the planned action? Any ideas as to how the government plan to provide cover during the planned strike if it goes ahead? Will it be like the 2002-3002 dispute in the UK where the army were drawn in (do the Irish Defence Forces actually have fire appliances?), or will groups such as the Civil Defence be drafted in to provide coverage?

The country's 1,400 full-time firefighters intend to hold a national all out strike from 15 April.

The strike is over pay and conditions. National Secretary of the Full-time Firefighters John Kidd said staff are not being replaced, which is having a huge impact on services.

He said the Dublin fire service lost 108 officers last year and they were only replaced by 30 officers.

Mr Kidd said training was a very important aspect of the job and that there is currently no training in Dublin. He said the situation had reached crisis point.

Firefighters to strike next month

Hooch

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Full time Fire Fighters plan to hold an all out strike next month over pay and work conditions.

What are peoples opinions on the planned action? Any ideas as to how the government plan to provide cover during the planned strike if it goes ahead? Will it be like the 2002-3002 dispute in the UK where the army were drawn in (do the Irish Defence Forces actually have fire appliances?), or will groups such as the Civil Defence be drafted in to provide coverage?



Firefighters to strike next month

Last time fire service had a strike (and paul etc can correct me) but they all striked and still provided an emergency service......unpaid!!! Maybe that was retained.....not sure but I remember thinking the Government must love those strikes!!!

Hope they dont pull all Emergency services......would be a shame but maybe thats what it will take.

silverharp

I cant say there will be much public support, the average person will go a lifetime without needing a call out so I guess people will take their chances for the few weeks or how ever long it lasts and given the public reaction to the passport staff the public seem to want the government to face the delusional behaviour of the PS unions down.

deadwood

Will the army be called upon again?

monkeysox

deadwood wrote: »

Will the army be called upon again?

I recall hearing a PDFORA statement last year saying that if the HSE NAS went on strike the army would not step in to provide cover, I presume it would be the same for the Fire Service.

supermedic

I think the reality is that the army at most could provide cover for about 3 counties. The privates wont go near the ambulance work and have lost a lot of staff to the HSE recently. The CD again could only provide a tiny fraction of the cover that would be required. I fear that if things do not go well in Government buildings over the next week or so , the prospect of a national, all out, no emergency cover strike for the fire and ambulance service could be a real possibility. One that i think, neither the Government or the unions could afford to let happen. The anti public service spin by the media is even more annoying for the staff of the emergency services, who do a pretty important and sometimes ****ty job, for not much money. Fact, some one retiring as a paramedic from the HSE today with 40 years services will get a pension of just over 20K a year. The idea of gold plated pensions may be the reality for the upper levels of the civil service, but not for us foot soldiers.

meathstevie

Would the crews consider completely pulling emergency cover ?

To keep the public opinion on side wouldn't it be better to down tools on all non-emergency work like for example completing fire reports for insurance purposes, fire safety inspections for buildings, road clean ups at rtc's etc etc... it would also show the public what sort of work emergency services do beside life or death stuff.

I can well understand the army is not one bit interested in taking over the job. Can you imagine what will happen if a well meaning soldier with limited training in firefighting work makes a mistake and some smart alec decides to put in a claim ?

Leo Demidov

Back in the nineties the army provided fire cover to wexford county during the retained fire fighters strike. With all due respect to those involved, they were untrained, ill equipped lacked any experience.

I'm sure they were using CD appliances at the time, so equipment was more basic than it is now, but in any event a CD appliance will only carry a small proportion of the required equipment. Add to that the small number of CD appliances available, the lack of medically trained personnel, poor local knowledge and general infrastructure. The army at best could provide a limited service.

MagicSean

The government still have their heads in the sand. Their response to the public service strikes is the equivalent of putting your fingers in your ears, closing your eyes and saying "Lah Lah Lah I cant hear you. You're not there if I cant see you." There are so many ways they could save money and make the public service more efficient but they don't want to listen to anyone. I'd like to see a nurse as minister for health or a garda as minister for justice. Maybe a good teacher as minister for education. I'd say they'd get some good work done then.

supermedic

I think the possibility of a strike is 50/50. If it does happen then it will be because the government mess the unions around again as they did in December. If it happens, it has to have maximum effect in an ultra short time frame.

Despite the bad press and negative public sentiment for the emergency service staff, could the government survive an all out strike by the fire or ambulance service with no emergency cover???, I've said it before, we are not the well paid civil servants with the "Rolls Royce" pension.

In the Ambulance service, we are the lowest paid professional grade in the health service. At a time when the government are trying to reconfigure acute hospital care, they need us to step up and travel much longer distances with sicker patients , with no real increase in staff, no ongoing training, poor management structures and at a time when they have taken some 20 odd percent of our pay off us in the last 18 months.

To all those who supported the governments plan to reduce our wages.....what did you think, that we would let it happen with out a fight.

FlutterinBantam

k_mac wrote: »

The government still have their heads in the sand. Their response to the public service strikes is the equivalent of putting your fingers in your ears, closing your eyes and saying "Lah Lah Lah I cant hear you. You're not there if I cant see you." There are so many ways they could save money and make the public service more efficient but they don't want to listen to anyone. I'd like to see a nurse as minister for health or a garda as minister for justice. Maybe a good teacher as minister for education. I'd say they'd get some good work done then.

Absolute rubbish, if you don't mind me saying so.

The Fire service seem to think that they are a corps apart .

There is no money in the kitty guys, never mind the whys and the wherefores.

If anyone has their fingers in their ears it's you,you are picking the wrong time to start agitating.

Wolfe Tone

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Absolute rubbish, if you don't mind me saying so.

The Fire service seem to think that they are a corps apart .

There is no money in the kitty guys, never mind the whys and the wherefores.

If anyone has their fingers in their ears it's you,you are picking the wrong time to start agitating.

Well said I must say.


IMHO a strike would solve nothing. Theres no money and the govt cannot afford to give in.

supermedic

Where did the idea come from that there is no money. Look at NAMA and the recapitalisation of the banks

MagicSean

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Absolute rubbish, if you don't mind me saying so.

The Fire service seem to think that they are a corps apart .

There is no money in the kitty guys, never mind the whys and the wherefores.

If anyone has their fingers in their ears it's you,you are picking the wrong time to start agitating.

Why is everyone so focused on the "kitty". Go down to your local fire station and ask the newest member if he knows a way that money could be saved so he wouldn't have to take a pay cut and I bet he could tell you a lot of ways. Unfortunately nobody is prepared to listen to him.

discus

Amen. I was at a presentation just yesterday where we were shown that a certain DFB station had requested a new door for a chemical storage shed - 15 years ago! It'll no doubt cost 20x the cost of the door when some toerag sneaks into the station, walks into the chem-storage, hurts himself and puts in a successful claim :eek::rolleyes:.

As usual, dealing with the beauraucrats of the local authorities makes progess difficult.

I'll support a fire strike.

supermedic

Every government run and funded department has to go through a procurement process for all items that are purchased by that department.

In the HSE for example, every item of stationary must be provided by XXX company. For example, a HP printer ink costs, say €30.00 from XXX company, when i can buy the same compatible ink for €10 down the road. Just try to fathom how much ink is used, even by the HSE, each year and then by the whole state apparatus and then see how, with one pen stroke, we could cut that bill by two thirds.

Yes, someone will say, it not that easy, but it cant be that hard !!!

dfbemt

Dunno what all the fuss is about. The government have been very good to us in DFB

€700,000 for 2 ET's that will never be used
€350,000 for a hose layer that is in ...urm....eh.....well......
€300,000 for a foam tender that has no....pump.....sshhhh
€200,000 for 5 tunnel jeeps that we no longer have
€100,000 for 2 CAFS 4x4's that are....em......dusty somewhere

and on and on and on and on

:rolleyes:

AlekSmart

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/firefighters-battle-blaze-for-hours-as-five-buildings-are-hit-2116836.html

In the context of Dublin`s ES Fire Fighters industrial action last nights events should perhaps concentrate a few minds in high places.

I don`t consider it OTT to speculate that Dublin City Centre could well have looked very different were it not for the DFB attendance in Abbey Street.

Perhaps Mr Cowen and his merry crew might regard that risk as one of collateral damage as they continue with,what is becoming,a very skewed crusade to prop up an intrinsically crooked Banking System.

Another poster on Boards was of the viewpoint that since he/she had never called upon the ES`s the proposed action would be of little consequence to them......One knows not the day nor the hour !!!!

johnnyrotten

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Absolute rubbish, if you don't mind me saying so.

The Fire service seem to think that they are a corps apart .

There is no money in the kitty guys, never mind the whys and the wherefores.

If anyone has their fingers in their ears it's you,you are picking the wrong time to start agitating.

Absolute Rubbish!

johnnyrotten

AlekSmart wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/firefighters-battle-blaze-for-hours-as-five-buildings-are-hit-2116836.html

In the context of Dublin`s ES Fire Fighters industrial action last nights events should perhaps concentrate a few minds in high places.

I don`t consider it OTT to speculate that Dublin City Centre could well have looked very different were it not for the DFB attendance in Abbey Street.

Perhaps Mr Cowen and his merry crew might regard that risk as one of collateral damage as they continue with,what is becoming,a very skewed crusade to prop up an intrinsically crooked Banking System.

Another poster on Boards was of the viewpoint that since he/she had never called upon the ES`s the proposed action would be of little consequence to them......One knows not the day nor the hour !!!!

What about the recent Guinness Fire. The place was saved. Imagine the financial implications of it being lost.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wXL1aU6fCU

miju

So does anyone know the latest on this and if it's going ahead next week?

Would it be safe to assume the ES are voting in some form on this new "wage agreement"?

FGR

Ahh 'wage agreement'. I love the inverted commas !

I would presume that the majority of PS bodies are of the same opinion as the ASTI. I'm wondering whether there'll be enough pressure put on DFB to stand down pending their vote on this.

I describe it as pressure as opposed to the DFB being 'incentivised' by this agreement; for very obvious reasons.

miju

ForegoneReality wrote: »

I would presume that the majority of PS bodies are of the same opinion as the ASTI.

Well I know my union is looking like it's going to reject it, joke of a thing for the unions to agree to in negotiations anyway

MagicSean

miju wrote: »

Well I know my union is looking like it's going to reject it, joke of a thing for the unions to agree to in negotiations anyway

What did you expect. It's the best we could have hoped for given the state of the economy.

Paulzx

k_mac wrote: »

What did you expect. It's the best we could have hoped for given the state of the economy.

Have you by any chance read the full sixty one page Sectoral Agreement?

johnnyrotten

k_mac wrote: »

What did you expect. It's the best we could have hoped for given the state of the economy.

Bull! Read the whole thing cover to cover. Its a shafting by Government and Unions

GarlicBread

I fully support the unions. Bring down this facist regime before its too late. Take all those billions and put it into society instead of pissing it away. Think of the damage that will be done if FF stay in power for another 2 years, it will be to late to stop any of it by then. I actually want to live in this country for the rest of my life but if the current course stays i am gone. Why would i want to live and raise a family in a country that treats its own people like sh*t when i can go and work in another more civilized european country and have a better quality of life without having to fight for it.

All you guys talking about "paying our debts" have some neck. The public service are the people who actually run this country and an attack on them is an attack on all of us no matter who you are.

The only pain that is gonna be taken is when fianna fail, the banks and all the rest of the freak show are getting their heads chopped off in public for this society wide atrocity which they are commiting right now as we speak.

Strike fast and strike hard!

Shield

Lads this is an Emergency Services forum. Can we bring this back on topic please? There is a Politics forum for those who want to discuss this from a political standpoint.

Thanks.

Head The Wall

What are the legal ramifications if someone dies in a fire when the fire service are on strike?

MagicSean

No ramifications on the fire service anyway.

Head The Wall

k_mac wrote: »

No ramifications on the fire service anyway.

Do they have no legal requirement to provide a service so?

Does this mean they are providing a voluntary service that they get paid for so.

MagicSean

Head The Wall wrote: »

Do they have no legal requirement to provide a service so?

Does this mean they are providing a voluntary service that they get paid for so.

They are not legally required to help anyone.

Head The Wall

k_mac wrote: »

They are not legally required to help anyone.

Not questioning you, it's just hard to believe.

Is this also the case with Gardai, paramedics etc

MagicSean

Head The Wall wrote: »

Not questioning you, it's just hard to believe.

Is this also the case with Gardai, paramedics etc

Yes. You can't legally oblige someone to risk their life. That's not to say you wouldn't be open to disciplinary procedures.

Shield

Folks, when I say back on topic, I would draw your attention to the fact that the thread is raising the issue of how the government might respond to planned action from an ES point of view, and speculates whether the army or the civil defence would be called upon, and whether they would be adequately equipped in such circumstances.

It's now turned into a legal discussion which we already have a forum for.

Last chance: Bring it back on topic or I will assume everyone has had their say on the matter, and will close it accordingly.

miju

psni wrote: »

Folks, when I say back on topic, I would draw your attention to the fact that the thread is raising the issue of how the government might respond to planned action from an ES point of view, and speculates whether the army or the civil defence would be called upon, and whether they would be adequately equipped in such circumstances.

Well one would assume that the Civil Defence would attend fires with Army crewing ambulances or would voluntaries become involved?

I know in the national emergency plan the Red Cross are the first to be called on out of the voluntaries as it's state funded.

CB19Kevo

From the Civil Defence point of view, Very few members want to get involved.
And CD should not be put in a position where they are expected to provide cover. The role of CD is to assist the full time services.
I fail to see how this could be classed as such.

miju

CB19Kevo wrote: »

From the Civil Defence point of view, Very few members want to get involved.
And CD should not be put in a position where they are expected to provide cover. The role of CD is to assist the full time services.
I fail to see how this could be classed as such.

That would be the same with most voluntary organisations tbh. Most if not all have many DFB and HSE Paramedics and A/P amongst their group.

Plus it's crossing a picket whatever way you look at it.

Head The Wall

k_mac wrote: »

Yes. You can't legally oblige someone to risk their life. That's not to say you wouldn't be open to disciplinary procedures.

Throwaway comments are no help really, every time someone walks across the road or drives they are risking their life.

My point is if someone calls 999 and no one arrives, what happens then?

Paulzx

Head The Wall wrote: »

My point is if someone calls 999 and no one arrives, what happens then?

Its a bit late at that stage to be worrying about what happens then.

Its obvious what happens.

Nobody arrives.

MagicSean

Head The Wall wrote: »

Throwaway comments are no help really, every time someone walks across the road or drives they are risking their life.

My point is if someone calls 999 and no one arrives, what happens then?

How is it a throw away comment? You asked if there was a legal requirement.

Head The Wall

Paulzx wrote: »

Its a bit late at that stage to be worrying about what happens then.

Its obvious what happens.

Nobody arrives.

You're so intelligent :rolleyes:

k_mac wrote: »

How is it a throw away comment? You asked if there was a legal requirement.

The disciplinary procedures is what I was wondering about, if I drive for a living I risk my life every time I go on the road. That's the point I was making about your comment. I understand the inherent dangers in being a Fire-fighter as do most people so there's no need for comments like that.

MagicSean

Head The Wall wrote: »

You're so intelligent :rolleyes:




The disciplinary procedures is what I was wondering about, if I drive for a living I risk my life every time I go on the road. That's the point I was making about your comment. I understand the inherent dangers in being a Fire-fighter as do most people so there's no need for comments like that.

I said there is no legal requirement for them to act. However if they neglect their duties by refusing to act they may be exposing themselves to internal disciplinary measures.

Paulzx

Head The Wall wrote: »

The disciplinary procedures is what I was wondering about,.

What disciplinary proceedings? If a firefighter is on a legal industrial action i.e an all out strike mandated by the union members under the relevant legislation how can he be subject to disciplinary proceedings.

He will not be receiving a salary from his employer as he will be refusing to carry out his duties as per the industrial action.

Sierra Oscar

k_mac wrote: »

I said there is no legal requirement for them to act. However if they neglect their duties by refusing to act they may be exposing themselves to internal disciplinary measures.

Or it could end up turning out like the national fire service strikes in England in 2002 - ie public opinion rapidly turns against the fire brigade when they down their tools.

Sierra Oscar

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Or it could end up turning out like the national fire service strikes in England in 2002 - ie public opinion rapidly turns against the fire brigade when they down their tools.

Public Opinion is already against the Public Services and Emergency Services so what have they got to lose? The government are already planning to cut wages again and the Croke Park agreement (gun to unions heads) would not prevent this happening.

Zuppy

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Or it could end up turning out like the national fire service strikes in England in 2002 - ie public opinion rapidly turns against the fire brigade when they down their tools.

Fortunatly for us we are not going to war and have a government who can effectivly use that to turn people again the fire service with ease. As was the case in the UK strike. Public opinion is fickly.