Is it time now for smaller bunches

Del1888

Frist of all i like to say it's great to see the increase numbers in cycling races since the start of the season, but racing on irish roads is it safe to send out150 riders some with little racing experience out on the roads Will we have to follow are friends up north and pre reg a few weeks before the event, mind u of all the regions of ireland while racing i felt the safest racing up north, with some events having 10-12 police motorbike at there disposal! Or maybe spitting the group in 2, but i known this will put extra pressure on race organisers!

Safe racing and to all who crashed at the weekend speedy recovery!

blorg

I'd tend to agree, it is getting very hairy. I've only really started open racing this year mind but I'm a lot more comfortable in a smaller bunch.

Chips Lovell

I think that would be a step backwards. If we eliminate big bunches straight away, people will never learn how to ride in them.

Personally, I'd prefer to see people cop on and ride their bikes properly. A whole lot of problems would be solved if some eejits didn't try jump into gaps that aren't there or didn't grab a fistful of brakes the every time they see a twig on the road.

GlennaMaddy

Del1888 wrote: »

Frist of all i like to say it's great to see the increase numbers in cycling races since the start of the season, but racing on irish roads is it safe to send out150 riders some with little racing experience out on the roads Will we have to follow are friends up north and pre reg a few weeks before the event, mind u of all the regions of ireland while racing i felt the safest racing up north, with some events having 10-12 police motorbike at there disposal! Or maybe spitting the group in 2, but i known this will put extra pressure on race organisers!

Safe racing and to all who crashed at the weekend speedy recovery!

Couple of idea's on this...
Maybe if the races were held on closed roads or circuits with rolling closures it wouldn't be such a problem.
If organisers selected circuits with a few drags or hills (but not mountains) it would split things up a bit, and result in smaller groups at the finish.
If we stopped selecting boreens and went for wider roads -I don't think it'd cause that much disruption, with all our new motorways there should be plenty of former primary routes that would suit.

I don't think getting marshalls should be as difficult now that the number of people racing is on the up. Bohermeen CC had almost a dozen motorcycle marhshalls on Sunday, and he couse was well marshalled

sunshinyday

id agree with el tonto
alot are too hasty to judge the obstacles if any on the circuits. others seem overexcited by the fact its a race.

im intending to travel to balbriggan next week for the racing. over west we are unfortunate in some regards not to have such large groups. The racing often feels harder because of it, but we still have our fair share of spills. Smaller groups dont always reduce the risks. A bit of common sense does.

I think Paddy Doran should write an article on irishcycling about how to safe bunch ride like he did with regards to racing a few weeks ago. He prob has something written already from years ago that could be resurected.

RobFowl

sunshinyday wrote: »

I think Paddy Doran should write an article on irishcycling about how to safe bunch ride like he did with regards to racing a few weeks ago. He prob has something written already from years ago that could be resurected.

He has one. Here it is...

Safe Racing
Paddy Doran
While crashes and falls are a natural hazard of bicycle racing, the aim must be to minimise the number of crashes and severity of the consequences of any crashes that do occur.
There are a number of things that riders can do to improve safety while still being totally competitive. I realize that a lot of this may be very basic to some of the more experienced riders, however I think everyone can gain by addressing the safety issues.
Taking Personal responsibility
This includes your behaviour during races, following the race rules, maintaining your bicycle in good condition and development of good technique for bunch riding.
The bicycle
Both brakes should work well, brakes should be adjusted close to the wheel rim so that in emergency braking your brake lever does not go right into your bars when applied.
Learn how to use both your brakes for emergency stops as well as general braking.
Gears should be well adjusted so that they are smooth on the sprockets and particularly that the chain does not jump on the sprockets, which can cause a fall.
The quick release on the wheels should be firmly adjusted.
Brake levers should be adjusted so that you can safely reach and apply them whether you are holding the drops or tops of the bars.
All bicycle part should be tight and well adjusted. Regular checks should be part of your race preparation.
If you ride tubular tyres they should be well stuck on to the rim and regularly checked.
Other Traffic
Bear in mind that the roads are open to other traffic. And even though race organisers and the Gardai do a very good job warning and controlling oncoming traffic this is the biggest danger to your safety when racing.
No matter how good the race traffic control system there is always the possibility of a car straying accidentally into the race. For example a car coming out of a house after the marshals and race police have passed. The driver might not even be aware that there is a race on the road. Or the scenario that has happened with serious consequences for riders on a number of major races in Ireland, and other countries. This is where a driver is just impatient or stupid or a combination of both and ignores race marshals and drives on into the race.
Keep to the correct side of the road particularly on bends. This is where you are at your most vulnerable. You should take personal responsibility here and under no circumstances ride around blind bends on the wrong side of the road.
Anticipate – ANTICIPATE – ANTICIPATE
Especially because of the fact that we generally race on open roads riders should be anticipating what’s happening further up the road at all times to allow for time to react to situations. This should save a lot of jamming on of brakes.
Call out for potholes parked cars etc and take evasive action with plenty of time to spare. This saves riders flicking around obstacles and riders behind them making contact with the pothole or car.
When cycling in a group, anticipation and early evasive action is essential to avoid sudden unexpected changes in direction, which are often the cause of accidents. Clear signals and clear communication between riders is essential during events.
Examples
A: A good example as riders glance behind to check that it is safe before they move out then signal and gradually move out to pass the parked car. This is a smooth action, which if clearly signalled is very safe.
B: This is a very dangerous manoeuvre as the riders are too close to the car before they begin to move out to pass it and they must turn very sharply which can cause chaos in the group. This manoeuvre also puts the cyclists into danger from other traffic which may be approaching or overtaking them.
When following wheels ride slightly to the side of the rear wheel that you are following to avoid hitting it if the rider in front of you freewheels or brakes.
Relax
When you want to move up in the bunch wait until its safe to do so. There is usually opportunity to do this when the road widens out etc.
Have a quick glance behind to see that it’s safe to change direction and signal to other riders before you do change direction when riding in a group.
Ride in a straight line. This is particularly important in sprints where it’s dangerous enough without people switching.
Look where you are going at all times. At the speed you travel when racing even taking your eyes off the road for a second can mean the difference between you missing a car door opening, a dog running out on to the road or someone stepping off a footpath.
Be generous with other riders when it comes to safety issues. Give way to let other riders move in or out when there are obstacles other traffic etc.
When the race is finished
Be aware that there is race traffic and other cyclist’s may be finishing seconds or minutes behind you so be careful as you slow down and stop. Stop well beyond the finishing line, if at all possible avoid doing a U turn to go back to the judges to find out where you might have finished in the race.
Cooperate with the race organisers and help them to clear the finish area. They usually have enough to be doing at the finish without being distracted by riders who have finished. This is especially dangerous when a group of riders stop just beyond the finishing line and block following team cars, which then become a serious hazard to other riders sprinting in to the finishing line.
Enjoy the race
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sunshinyday

Fair play

for that,the thanks option isnt available to me yet.

Chips Lovell

Another thing. I think poor riding isn't called out enough at the moment. Chances are, if you're riding like an idiot and everyone is shouting at you that you're riding like an idiot, you may well start behaving. There's lot's of generalised shouting in the bunch, but not many people are calling out the main culprits.

I might be talking out of my ass here, but I suspect if you pulled some of the stunts you see in Ireland on the continent, you'd be greeted with a stream of expletives or worse.

Paddy Doran wrote: »

When you want to move up in the bunch wait until its safe to do so. There is usually opportunity to do this when the road widens out etc.

This is one of the key issues from what I've seen, people taking stupid risks to move up. If you don't have the skill or the fitness to move up through the bunch safely, then tough s**t. It's not an excuse for kamikaze moves.

niceonetom

As someone new to the scene I'd say:

Racers have to accept a certain amount of risk and get on with it.

BUT

I'm not sure about putting limits on the size of the bunches, but I think that certain things should scale with the number of participants, namely the width of the roads and the quality of the surface. Sending 120+ riders of all abilities down a freshly ploughed boreen no wider than a hatchback makes crashes inevitable, and makes the consequences of those crashes large.

If large numbers are expected then the roads should be chosen with that in mind. A large group (maybe 300 racers between all cats yesterday) makes it a lot easier to justify taking over proper roads and not feeling the necessity of being restricted to goat tracks.

If the course is one that's been used often enough to become a tradition that people would be reluctant to change, well, then there is a case for either restricting the numbers (pre-register or first-come-first-served on the day) or going for a proper rolling closure of the roads.

The "stay on the right side of the road" is unenforced and totally unenforceable.

The dangerous moments (in my limited experience in the A4s) is NOT the obvious newbies. If anything, they (like me) are timid and unlikely to try anything too adventurous. Most n00bs have no ambitions beyond a safe and uneventful race. When I see someone sprinting up the gutter and barging into a gap where there is no gap, it is invariably an obviously experienced (though not that talented if they're still in A4?) rider, often a vet. It's the combination of overconfidence in their own abilities and over-reliance in the reactions of other riders around them that sends ripples through the group.

biker_joe

I one thing I have found, is that if you intend to make a move up the inside or outside, let the rider beside you know, and also for the rider ahead, that you are going to pass, CALL OUT his RACE number and shout "On yer INSIDE" or OUTSIDE etc ... this will be much more appreciated !!!

Anyways I have found being up the road much safer than being in a "jumpy" Bunch like yesterdays .....
Glad to be on a years' sabbatical !

Biker Joe.

sunshinyday

good to see this issue is being evenly discussed. I wasnt at yesterdays race in Bohermeen, was racing in Sligo instead, but just on observation of the pictures on Irish Cycling the main crash happened with 80M to go, making it probably to say it wasnt an issue of traffic, roads etc but maybe more likely a head down approach to the sprint from someone, or inexperience sprinting.

I think alot go out and train to cover the distance but fail to think they will be there at the finish and then its a new experience for them.
Just my opinion

biker_joe

There was also a crash on the 1st lap, and on this course in particular over the last 10 years there has been plenty of incidents !!

So for Cycling Ireland, they are not doing their job in terms of rider safety, they need to direct the promoting Club change the course altogether or at least change the finish, because it seems to be dangerous no matter what size of the bunch is riding it !!

Biker Joe

iregk

I think one of the main problems here is other people attitude to poor riding. Yes I'm pointing the finger at myself and everyone else. Lets face facts, all of us had our first couple of races and I'll bet like myself you were quite nervious in your first one or two.

I've done stupid things in the past and been roared at however nobody ever corrected me and told me what I had done. This is something we all do for some reason, we give out but don't point out.

Example. I play golf occasionally. All the rules of golf I've learned when I've done something wrong. Someone has said right move that as you can't do that due to x, y or z. Similarly take your golf trolley off the tea box you shouldn't have it there becasue ... Cycling isn't like that for some reason. Its more a case of "you f**king idiot!"

Everything I've learned about cycling, positioning, anticipation, general awareness and movement I've learned because an older head (my mates dad) took me under his wing and spoke to me constantly in my early days. Its been a long time since I've gotten given out to. Thats what we need more of. People won't learn until we stop giving out and start explaining.

jdt101

135 in the A3/A4 bunch in Banteer last week with no problems. The best and safest place to be is at or near the front to avoid any stupid riding.

The real answer is fitter riders who are willing to work and get into breaks, thus reducing numbers. Far too many people sitting-on in the bunch, which results in nervous riding.

A crash in the last 80m has nothing to do with numbers IMO, could happen in any sprint where someone goes off their line.

blorg

niceonetom wrote: »

The dangerous moments (in my limited experience in the A4s) is NOT the obvious newbies. If anything, they (like me) are timid and unlikely to try anything too adventurous. Most n00bs have no ambitions beyond a safe and uneventful race. When I see someone sprinting up the gutter and barging into a gap where there is no gap, it is invariably an obviously experienced (though not that talented if they're still in A4?) rider, often a vet. It's the combination of overconfidence in their own abilities and over-reliance in the reactions of other riders around them that sends ripples through the group.

FWIW having recently been upgraded I'm certainly finding the A3 bunch hairier than A4 was. The worst crashes including the sprint finish carnage in Bohermeen were in the A3 race, not the A4. I avoided that race due to its reputation for this sort of thing happening.

Lumen

As someone who crashed out of their first race this year (albeit taking nobody else with me) I'm the last person to be throwing stones.

However, there does seem to be a rather inappropriate amount of seriousness in the A4 races this year. It's like everyone has read the ladybird book of being a racing cyclist and tried to deploy as much of it as possible, i.e. coasting along in the bunch, conserving as much energy as possible, to go absolutely mental for position in the closing stages. It's all very cunning in theory, but you can't have 100 people all trying to out-tactic other for a placing - 100 into 6 goes really badly.

I don't blame the organisers. The marshalling I've experienced has been first rate. We have to take responsibility for our own fates.

Aside from anything else, the combination of 60km of tedium followed by 5km of near-death isn't actually any fun. Mr Skeffington's 75km breakaway is very inspiring, up with this sort of thing!

I'm sure it'll shake itself out as the season progresses; all the delays in A&E are bound to thin out the bunches a bit.

Bikerbhoy

el tonto wrote: »

I think that would be a step backwards. If we eliminate big bunches straight away, people will never learn how to ride in them.

Personally, I'd prefer to see people cop on and ride their bikes properly. A whole lot of problems would be solved if some eejits didn't try jump into gaps that aren't there or didn't grab a fistful of brakes the every time they see a twig on the road.

The above will always be the case you will never eliminate these problems,,,, BUT what can be done is damage limitation and if that means pre register and / or reduced field sizes so be it ..... SAFETY is number one priority the sport comes second.

sy

Crashes are inevitable in this sport, even the pros make mistakes, touch wheels etc it is all part of the game. Our roads here in Ireland are inferior and of course they are not closed. Oh and one other thing we are a bunch of amateurs.
It was great to see so many cyclists in Bohermeen on Sunday. Nearly 400 cyclists participated including the underage races. This is teriffic for the sport and bodes well for the future. Racing was in the doldrums from about 1995 up to a few years ago. Limiting the size of the groups would not be a good idea IMO but careful monitoring of the circuits used should be addressed immediately and not by the local club running the races. Potholes, yumps, poor surfaces roads too narrow etc should be investigated and the course altered if necessary. No club wants to lose their spot on the calender but if the circuit is not safe then sort it. The crash on Sunday, which I witnessed, was just bad luck and bunch sprints are always hairy especially when the road is very narrow. Rule of thumb if you are not in the first two or three rows in a narrow circuit there is no point in sprinting flat out for 18th place.

I watched all the races in Bohermeen on Sunday and was surprised that the A3 and A4 didn't seem to generate any breakaway groups? Anybody in either race fill me in. Of course this may have happened elsewhere on the circuit but I doubt it. Yes the course is flat but , Mr Skeffington showed how it could be done. Most people seem to be content sitting in or hanging on in the group waiting for a bunch sprint which was always going to be risky on this circuit. Again well done to all who participated and a speedy recovery to those who crashed

Slideshowbob

i think bohermeen is an exception always crashes
so flat
narrow roads
hard to split it up
lads need to be careful
actually in bohermeen if u sit in all day in the handier races u get sucked along
so loads of guy fresh at end
think they can sprint

I think to go restricting races in the south just because of yesterday's events would be over-reacting.

It's up to riders to be careful and take due care and consideration of others

we all have jobs to get up for on a monday morning or other responsibilities such as families!

we aint pros - some guys think they are and will put their safety and others after their results!!! if u break something u r guaranteed no results for weeks / months!!!