Medicine vs Pharmacy

bleh!

Ok guys I need some advice here. I repeated my HPAT this year for medicine but I am already studying pharmacy. I thought I really wanted medicine but after hearing a few horror stories about medicine, I kinda feel discouraged from taking it. However, I've heard horror stories about Pharmacy too such as the job being boring, badly hit by the recession, etc. I just want to make the right decision by August if I do receive an offer. What do you guys think? If I do receive an offer for medicine, would it be best for me to accept it or just continue with pharmacy?

deepimpact

If you want to do medicine, go for it. I wouldn't do pharmacy then enter through graduate though (speaking as someone who is a recently qualified pharmacist). It would be far too long imo, with not much benefit (except exemptions from a couple of subjects).

In the end, you must be happy with your decision. If you're happy to switch, now (or August) is the time. Go with your gut.

Jane5

Go for pharmacy, defo. It's as portable as medicine, MUCH nicer terms and conditions, and if you want, you can live outside of major cities/towns-not an option for any docs bar GPs currently. No needlestick injuries, employment more secure (junior docs reapply for jobs every 6 months for years on end, and are expected to move house without any assistance every six months), and when you've done your pharmacy degree and your pre-reg year, you're done and can practice, as distinct from med, where you are in Ireland frequently a "trainee" until about age 40.

bleh!

Sorry for the late reply guys. The only problem I have is that I know that I've always wanted medicine. I'm growing to love pharmacy though but personally, I wouldn't mind emigrating after college. If I did go into medicine and decide to emigrate, is the process very long? Are the work conditions very much the same in Ireland as in other countries like Oz, US or Canada?

Jane5

The work conditions in Ireland are nothing like they are in Oz, Canada or the USA. They are vastly inferior.

Oz has had working hours reform in place for years, as well as excellent pay scales and payment for every hour worked with massive overtime for on call from home etc.

USA has poor pay as a junior-but you only work as a junior for about 4 years, the training is EXCELLENT, and you are a consultant in four or five years post grad over there, with the ability to go and work anywhere in the world.

Canada I don't have huge experience with, my friends who have been tell me the hours are better than here, vastly more support for doctors in training, and very good training. Pay is supposed to be pretty good too.

All of the above in addition have much more job security than in Ireland.

USA is tricky-you have to have the US medical licensing exams done-they are about 1000 dollars per step, with 3 or 4 steps, I think, and they are quite difficult. The last step has to be taken in the USA. Visas can be tough to get for the USA, I've heard. Then you can apply to a matching scheme and can, as I understand, be sent anywhere. Once you are in, job is secure and consultancy pretty much a guarantee if you don't eff up your residency. Residency there is tough, though.

I know nothing much at all about Canada.

Oz, easy enough still for medical staff to get visas. You may get sent to the outback for a while though!

Jane5

My serious advice to you is, if you are growing to love pharmacy, for the love of all that is holy, stay in it. I could not imagine giving up a fairly secure job like pharmacy, with good pay and decent hours and prospects, for the stress laced lottery that is medicine.
Unless needlesticks from dodgy sources at 3am when you are blind with tiredness while being verbally abused by many different people and having 30 more hours straight to go (much of which you may not be paid for!)before you try to drive yourself home trying not to crash your car with fatigue is very much your thing, then I would stay in pharmacy. I will swap you if you like!

Anthony16

bleh! wrote: »

Ok guys I need some advice here. I repeated my HPAT this year for medicine but I am already studying pharmacy. I thought I really wanted medicine but after hearing a few horror stories about medicine, I kinda feel discouraged from taking it. However, I've heard horror stories about Pharmacy too such as the job being boring, badly hit by the recession, etc. I just want to make the right decision by August if I do receive an offer. What do you guys think? If I do receive an offer for medicine, would it be best for me to accept it or just continue with pharmacy?

Tbh,if you are willing to travel to the US then pharmacy is still a very good degree.Its well paid over there and well respected.Hours are much better than medicine but its up to you really

lonestargirl

Anthony16 wrote: »

Tbh,if you are willing to travel to the US then pharmacy is still a very good degree.Its well paid over there and well respected.Hours are much better than medicine but its up to you really

Pharmacy may be well respected in the US but I can't see CVS sponsoring someone for a visa, just too much paperwork money and hassle. If you wanted industrial or academic pharmacy then the US would be do-able.

tonietta19!

hello guYs,new to this and a lil not knowledgable about the board..I Am a pharmacist and practicing in southafrica.How is job opportunities for pharmacist in ireland and the slalary?Here, a pharmacist can never go without a job except on choice,the pay is nice and you get to locum if you want...How is the salary,quality of life and job opportunities for a pharmacist in ireland?Thankin u for a reply!

tonietta19!

hello jane are u a pharmacist practicing in ireland?

locum-motion

tonietta19! wrote: »

hello guYs,new to this and a lil not knowledgable about the board..I Am a pharmacist and practicing in southafrica.How is job opportunities for pharmacist in ireland and the slalary?Here, a pharmacist can never go without a job except on choice,the pay is nice and you get to locum if you want...How is the salary,quality of life and job opportunities for a pharmacist in ireland?Thankin u for a reply!

Tonietta,

Welcome to the site.

Unfortunately, job opportunities are virtually non-existent in Ireland at the moment. Anecdotally, over half of the most recent class of graduates have had to emigrate.

Also, unless this was changed by the Pharmacy Act 2007, and I'm about 99% sure that it wasn't*, your SA pharmacist qualification will not be recognised here. The only possible routes for PSI registration are:
a) complete a pharmacy degree and pre-reg internship in the Republic of Ireland,
b) do the same in another EU country, and then register via EU Free Movement of Professionals regulations,
c) do the same in Australia or New Zealand, and then complete a one month pre-reg training period.

I know a Canadian guy who, despite already being a qualified pharmacist in Canada, could only register here by going back to Uni and getting an Irish degree (they let him straight into fourth year) and then completing an intern year.

From what you say about conditions in SA, maybe I should be thinking about going over there. And then I wouldn't have to worry about the Irish weather.

L-M.

* If I'm incorrect here, would someone please let me know?

Kurtosis

locum-motion wrote: »

* If I'm incorrect here, would someone please let me know?

I'm not sure if it has changed or not. Article 16 of the Pharmacy Act talks about qualification. For someone outside of the EU (a "third country"), the Pharmaceutical Society of Ireland may require the person to sit an examination and possibly also undergo training (which, used to be at least in some cases, completing 4th year of the pharmacy degree here and the pre-reg year, not sure what is done currently).

tonietta19!

locum-motion wrote: »

Tonietta,

Welcome to the site.

Unfortunately, job opportunities are virtually non-existent in Ireland at the moment. Anecdotally, over half of the most recent class of graduates have had to emigrate.

Also, unless this was changed by the Pharmacy Act 2007, and I'm about 99% sure that it wasn't*, your SA pharmacist qualification will not be recognised here. The only possible routes for PSI registration are:
a) complete a pharmacy degree and pre-reg internship in the Republic of Ireland,
b) do the same in another EU country, and then register via EU Free Movement of Professionals regulations,
c) do the same in Australia or New Zealand, and then complete a one month pre-reg training period.

I know a Canadian guy who, despite already being a qualified pharmacist in Canada, could only register here by going back to Uni and getting an Irish degree (they let him straight into fourth year) and then completing an intern year.

From what you say about conditions in SA, maybe I should be thinking about going over there. And then I wouldn't have to worry about the Irish weather.

L-M.

* If I'm incorrect here, would someone please let me know?

Are you serious?????????????????So a pharmacist can go without a job??????????????????That is real bad!!!!!! here pharmacist are in real demand but seriously i want an experience from somewhere else! what is the salary like?????

tonietta19!

locum-motion wrote: »

Tonietta,

Welcome to the site.

Unfortunately, job opportunities are virtually non-existent in Ireland at the moment. Anecdotally, over half of the most recent class of graduates have had to emigrate.

Also, unless this was changed by the Pharmacy Act 2007, and I'm about 99% sure that it wasn't*, your SA pharmacist qualification will not be recognised here. The only possible routes for PSI registration are:
a) complete a pharmacy degree and pre-reg internship in the Republic of Ireland,
b) do the same in another EU country, and then register via EU Free Movement of Professionals regulations,
c) do the same in Australia or New Zealand, and then complete a one month pre-reg training period.

I know a Canadian guy who, despite already being a qualified pharmacist in Canada, could only register here by going back to Uni and getting an Irish degree (they let him straight into fourth year) and then completing an intern year.

From what you say about conditions in SA, maybe I should be thinking about going over there. And then I wouldn't have to worry about the Irish weather.

L-M.

* If I'm incorrect here, would someone please let me know?

yea,it has been reversed but i have to pass two exams and probabbly an internship

bleh!

lonestargirl wrote: »

Pharmacy may be well respected in the US but I can't see CVS sponsoring someone for a visa, just too much paperwork money and hassle. If you wanted industrial or academic pharmacy then the US would be do-able.

At the moment, I'm not really into community pharmacy anyway. How about industrial pharmacy in the US? Would you have any more information as to how to do it?

locum-motion wrote: »

Unfortunately, job opportunities are virtually non-existent in Ireland at the moment. Anecdotally, over half of the most recent class of graduates have had to emigrate.

Can I ask what were the most popular destinations for those pharmacists? Is emigrating not a difficult option for pharmacy (in comparison to medicine)?

locum-motion

bleh! wrote: »

Can I ask what were the most popular destinations for those pharmacists? Is emigrating not a difficult option for pharmacy (in comparison to medicine)?

UK, as far as I know.

Anthony16

lonestargirl wrote: »

Pharmacy may be well respected in the US but I can't see CVS sponsoring someone for a visa, just too much paperwork money and hassle. If you wanted industrial or academic pharmacy then the US would be do-able.

What about hospital?If u go over on a j1 how long can u stay there.
Cheers

lonestargirl

Anthony16 wrote: »

What about hospital?If u go over on a j1 how long can u stay there.
Cheers

I guess the issue with commercial/hospital pharmacy is that you would need to be a licensed pahrmacist in the state you are working in. I have no idea how transferrable an Irish degree in that regard. With academic/industrial pharmacy your degree would be an academic qualification and they company could proabably assess its quality themselves.

There are a whole range of J1s. For Irish people there are a number of single year options for recent graduates, if you go to a university you may be on a J1 (e.g. research scholar J1). There is a specific alien physician J1 which many Irish doctors who go to the US get, it's for up to 7 years but is only for physicians

take everything

Jane5 wrote: »

for the stress laced lottery that is medicine.

Love it.

femur61

As a member of the public. I am astounded at the points one would need to do pharmacy. To me,it must be the most boring job in the world. I know people who say a monkey could do it. My friend who is a pharmacist says it is so boring unless you have your own pharmacy, when you obtain all that knowledge what do you with it? Take instructions from somebody else!

Sorry, back to original post, I am a secondary school teacher, but due to health issues had to give it up. I personally loved it, it is your decision ultimately.

SomeDose

femur61 wrote: »

As a member of the public. I am astounded at the points one would need to do pharmacy. To me,it must be the most boring job in the world. I know people who say a monkey could do it...

Yes, but you'll find that the people who take this view are typically monkeys themselves. What's almost equally alarming is that a secondary school teacher could actually believe this nonsense.

To re-iterate a point I've made several times before, community pharmacy is only one potential career path for a pharmacist (although it is the most popular). Hospital and Industry are two other options, depending on one's preferences. I work in hospital in the UK and, by and large, I really enjoy it. Without wishing to offend my community colleagues, I feel it is more rewarding in terms of utilising one's knowledge of pharmacology, applied therapeutics and also in terms of broadening your academic knowledge of medicine in general. I can't really comment on a hospital pharmacy career in Ireland since I've no first-hand experience of it but, anecdotally, I believe the role is not nearly as developed as in the UK.

That's how I see it anyway, but it's horses for courses.

sam34

femur61 wrote: »

As a member of the public. I am astounded at the points one would need to do pharmacy. To me,it must be the most boring job in the world. I know people who say a monkey could do it

boring does not necessarily equal non-academic

the points are so high because its a very demanding course academically, with good reason.

imported_guy

sam34 wrote: »

the points are so high because its a very demanding course academically, with good reason.

thats not how the points system works, its a supply and demand thing, if there was no demand amongst LC students im sure medicine and pharma would both come down to 300 points or so, what makes you think pharmacy or more medicine is more demanding than say... mechanical engineering?

sam34

imported_guy wrote: »

thats not how the points system works, its a supply and demand thing, if there was no demand amongst LC students im sure medicine and pharma would both come down to 300 points or so, what makes you think pharmacy or more medicine is more demanding than say... mechanical engineering?

its not just down to supply and demand and market equilibrium

thats one factor certainly, but not the only one

more academically demanding courses will have higher points because there is no point having a course available to someone who would be incapable of doing it

drkpower

imported_guy wrote: »

thats not how the points system works, its a supply and demand thing, if there was no demand amongst LC students im sure medicine and pharma would both come down to 300 points or so, what makes you think pharmacy or more medicine is more demanding than say... mechanical engineering?

Have you ever seen some of the neanderthals that get a pass degree in mechanical engineering...?;)

imported_guy

sam34 wrote: »

its not just down to supply and demand and market equilibrium

thats one factor certainly, but not the only one

more academically demanding courses will have higher points because there is no point having a course available to someone who would be incapable of doing it

unfortunately thats not how its done, (its only the case in medicine, since they brought in the HPAT system, minimum needed is 480), but its not the case for pharma, OT, dent, vet etc, first/second year drop out rates in stuff like mechanical engineering etc are WAYYYY higher than say medicine/pharma, because people dont know what they are getting themself into (not saying that means mechanical engineering is more demanding, but it certainly shows that people with attitude problems like "oh the points are low that means its easy i'll do that" drop out because its not what they thought it would be)

http://www.gotocollege.ie/cao/course_offers.html

Points are determined by the number of places on offer, the overall number of applicants, and their success rate. Each year the points for each course change so it can be impossible to know how many points are needed to get onto a given course.

imported_guy

drkpower wrote: »

Have you ever seen some of the neanderthals that get a pass degree in mechanical engineering...?;)

no but ive seen some neanderthals that call themselves doctors, how about that huh?

sam34

imported_guy wrote: »

unfortunately thats not how its done, (its only the case in medicine, since they brought in the HPAT system, minimum needed is 480), but its not the case for pharma, OT, dent, vet etc, first/second year drop out rates in stuff like mechanical engineering etc are WAYYYY higher than say medicine/pharma, because people dont know what they are getting themself into (not saying that means mechanical engineering is more demanding, but it certainly shows that people with attitude problems like "oh the points are low that means its easy i'll do that" drop out because its not what they thought it would be)

http://www.gotocollege.ie/cao/course_offers.html

if you want to believe that if 1000 places in med school magically appeared they would leave in people with 200 or 300 points, go right ahead :pac:

drkpower

imported_guy wrote: »

no but ive seen some neanderthals that call themselves doctors, how about that huh?

Oh settle down, twas merely a little joke.

On topic, a medical degree is exceptionally challenging (as degrees go), particularly as it combines a pretty tough academic degree with a professional qualification also - and the competition is high.

As for pharmacy, it is certainly academic heavy but I can certainly see why a degree in mechanical engineering could be equally challenging.

imported_guy

sam34 wrote: »

if you want to believe that if 1000 places in med school magically appeared they would leave in people with 200 or 300 points, go right ahead :pac:

well in theory it is possible if no one applied to medschool we would have empty places.... :pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac: oh snap

tracker-man

sam34 wrote: »

if you want to believe that if 1000 places in med school magically appeared they would leave in people with 200 or 300 points, go right ahead :pac:

Sam34 I'm afraid you are wrong on this one! The other poster is right in saying that points for courses are determined solely on demand vs. places available. As an LC student applying for medicine, I know!

However, the points also rely on the entry requirements set by the University you are applying to. For example, for Engineering in NUIG:

Minimum Grade HC3 in two subjects and passes in four other subjects at H or O level in the Leaving Certificate. Students must obtain a minimum of Grade C3 in the Higher Level Leaving Certificate paper in Mathematics.

Therefor the minimum points are technically just 195! But because of demand and places available, the points required by LC students is closer to 450.

Hope this answers that question!

sam34

em, you've just contradicted yourself!

points are not based solely on demand, they are also based on minimum requirements

they are a function of both those things, admittedly one has more of an impact than the other

locum-motion

And, tell me, Femur, does it bother you when people who know nothing about teaching give out about how it's a doddle, you finish at 4pm every day, for the 7 months of the year that you actually do any work?

Oh, it does, does it? Good. It is right that such things should bother you.

Just as I get annoyed when people like you (who know nothing about pharmacy) say that a monkey could do my job!

Please don't post in this thread if you can't contribute anything worthwhile to it!

femur61 wrote: »

As a member of the public. I am astounded at the points one would need to do pharmacy. To me,it must be the most boring job in the world. I know people who say a monkey could do it. My friend who is a pharmacist says it is so boring unless you have your own pharmacy, when you obtain all that knowledge what do you with it? Take instructions from somebody else!

Sorry, back to original post, I am a secondary school teacher, but due to health issues had to give it up. I personally loved it, it is your decision ultimately.

tracker-man

sam34 wrote: »

em, you've just contradicted yourself!

points are not based solely on demand, they are also based on minimum requirements

they are a function of both those things, admittedly one has more of an impact than the other

We getting into semantics here? I just wanted to clarify how the system actually works. Don't tell me you knew all that already when clearly a few posts ago you didn't! In fact you fell into the same trap that alot of Leaving Certificate students do when filling out their CAO application. Most Boardsies would just hit the "Thanks" button, but anyway!

femur61

Excuse my ignornace is it not supply and demand that dictates the points? If not so then why do so many apply and get in the UK for a course here that demand 500+ points then in UK they gain their qualification on a lot less points only to come back here to seek work.

mcdermla

Minimum requirements aside, the more the demand, the higher the points. Science has the highest drop out rate because students assume that average points means the course requires average academic ability. Yet students who attain a degree in science have many doors open for them with regard to work and post graduate studies. To say that someone who picks a course that requires 340 points must be of only average intelligence is untrue and frankly insulting. The points system is just a way to fill courses. Lets not forget that the Leaving Cert is essentially a memory test and that college exams are much harder.

Sorry I couldn't answer your question OP, best of luck with whatever you decide.

Sid_Justice

Not to muddy the waters. There are certain courses with massive potential intake (Computer Applications in DCU used to take ~300+ undergraduates a year). However, when interest for this course dropped and only ~100 applicants got over 400 points they reduced the number of available spaces. Thus the points stayed around 400 but they only took 100 people on. Those figures are gross estimates.

If, by some magic, there were 1000 medical places in Irish universites for people applying purely through the CAO (ignoring the HPAT thing) I'm sure the uni's would take the best 1000 whether the points of the lowest entrant was 300 or not. If they're able to pass first year (and ultimately the course) that wouldn't bother me.

The college still gets paid for fees for every drop out student for the year they attend so they don't lose anything, just the admin of failing students.

But in a nut shell, pharmacy points are high purely because of demand, sam34's wriggling on matter aside.

anotherlostie

I studied Pharmacy in Trinity in the 90's. It was far from an easy course. Several people failed a year, despite having a high LC points score and not everyone that started completed their degree - when I started, I assumed that the biggest hurdle was getting in, but this wasn't the case.

One could argue that the most important thing for a teacher is an ability to control a crowd, but I don't see a LC subject covering that, or it being a large part of their college curriculum. It might weed out some of the useless teachers in the system.

angeldelight

Can I ask what were the most popular destinations for those pharmacists? Is emigrating not a difficult option for pharmacy (in comparison to medicine)?

UK - I personally know of 10 out of the 50 odd RCSI graduates currently working in the UK or in the process of registering having accepted jobs. And they're only the ones I've stayed in touch with that I know about

bleg

anotherlostie wrote: »

I studied Pharmacy in Trinity in the 90's. It was far from an easy course. Several people failed a year, despite having a high LC points score and not everyone that started completed their degree - when I started, I assumed that the biggest hurdle was getting in, but this wasn't the case.

Studied pharmacy in UCC, graduated last year, same story.

Miren

Hi everyone,

I was wondering if someone could offer me some advice. I graduated last year with a BSc in Pharmaceutical chemistry and i have being looking for a job/internship (unsuccessfully) ever since. So i have applied to study pharmacy in September, but with the low job prospects in Ireland currently, i'm really unsure what to do. I'm sure i will eventually get a job in a pharmaceutical company, but so many are large multinationals and don't offer much job security. Should i just study pharmacy while I have the option?
Any advice would be greatly appreciated,
Thank you.

Narkius Maximus

drkpower wrote: »

Have you ever seen some of the neanderthals that get a pass degree in mechanical engineering...?;)

There are plenty of stupid doctors doing half assed jobs too! And a lot of medics only ever 'pass' their degrees! Do we tarnish them as neanderthals?