Open Source Operating Systems: Purism vs Pragmatism?

Eliot Rosewater

I thought I would start a thread on the open source philosophy, and how it can clash with pragmatism, particularly on mainstream OS's such as Ubuntu.


<Optional backstory> My girlfriend bought a laptop yesterday and we decided to put Ubuntu 9.10 on it, dual-booting with Windows 7. Everything was going great until it came to setting up a wireless connection, which I couldn't get on Ubuntu. I skipped over to Windows 7 where there was a connection icon in the bottom right hand corner. I clicked it, it prompted for the password and then connected. Very simple.

I went back over to Ubuntu and started Googling as to why I couldn't connect. After a bit of searching it turned out I needed to "activate" drivers. So I went into Hardware Drivers and was met with an option to "activate" wireless drivers. I clicked on it, and then a box came up: "Need to download drivers..." A Catch 22, no less!</Optional backstory>


The way I see it is this: most laptop users will need wireless. Ubuntu is targeted at the mainstream, which includes people who are trying it out of curiosity. These people have no loyalty to Linux, and once they get an elementary error like "cant connect to the Internet" they will just give up. Should distro's like Ubuntu be more lenient in adhering to open source purism, and just include some of the proprietary software for ease of use?


(PS: Yee will be delighted to hear that the fresh install of Windows 7, though shiny and great looking, is slower and less responsive than Ubuntu 9.10 by a noticeable enough margin :pac:)

Bob_Harris

I don't understand this preference of the Linux community to open source drivers opposed to proprietary ones.

If you read through the support forums (which inevitably you will have to do if you want to do anything "out of the box" with a Linux distro), you see people recommending the open source ATI drivers over the proprietary ones.

I'm sorry but the open source ATI drivers are completely inferior, unsurprisingly, to the official ones released by AMD / ATI.

Who cares if certain drivers are closed source. At least they are fully functional and allow you full control of the hardware. Most open-source drivers are generic, with many only providing basic interaction with the hardware.

One problem with including propriety drivers in a distro is the inflation of the installation disk. You wouldn't fit Ubuntu on a 700mb disk with propriety drivers included.

Linux is still very dependant on a LAN connection, for both initial setup and installation of software due to the package dependencies model. If you don't have an RJ45 port or god forbid no internet connection at all, then Linux is severely handicapped.

loldog

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

Should distro's like Ubuntu be more lenient in adhering to open source purism, and just include some of the proprietary software for ease of use?

It's not just philosophical considerations, there's also a legal aspect. Ubuntu doesn't ship with Flash already installed because in some jurisidictions (US mainly) this would be illegal.

.

Pygmalion

loldog wrote: »

It's not just philosophical considerations, there's also a legal aspect. Ubuntu doesn't ship with Flash already installed because in some jurisidictions (US mainly) this would be illegal.

.

This s the only reason really.
If there an easy way that Ubuntu could legally be distributed with these drivers it probably would be.

Complaining about how it's due to "purism" won't help unless you can make it legal to distribute these things worldwide.

matrim

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

I thought I would start a thread on the open source philosophy, and how it can clash with pragmatism, particularly on mainstream OS's such as Ubuntu.


<Optional backstory> My girlfriend bought a laptop yesterday and we decided to put Ubuntu 9.10 on it, dual-booting with Windows 7. Everything was going great until it came to setting up a wireless connection, which I couldn't get on Ubuntu. I skipped over to Windows 7 where there was a connection icon in the bottom right hand corner. I clicked it, it prompted for the password and then connected. Very simple.

I went back over to Ubuntu and started Googling as to why I couldn't connect. After a bit of searching it turned out I needed to "activate" drivers. So I went into Hardware Drivers and was met with an option to "activate" wireless drivers. I clicked on it, and then a box came up: "Need to download drivers..." A Catch 22, no less!</Optional backstory>


The way I see it is this: most laptop users will need wireless. Ubuntu is targeted at the mainstream, which includes people who are trying it out of curiosity. These people have no loyalty to Linux, and once they get an elementary error like "cant connect to the Internet" they will just give up. Should distro's like Ubuntu be more lenient in adhering to open source purism, and just include some of the proprietary software for ease of use?


(PS: Yee will be delighted to hear that the fresh install of Windows 7, though shiny and great looking, is slower and less responsive than Ubuntu 9.10 by a noticeable enough margin :pac:)

Just to note on your backstory, windows was pre-installed on your laptop with the drivers. If you got a random normal copy of windows 7 and tried the install it most likely wouldn't have the drivers either.

If you check the disks that came with your laptop most likely you will have 2 disks one for Windows and one for the drivers that don't come with windows.

On my laptop I could install Ubuntu and everything worked fine off the bat, but the last time I re-installed windows I had to download my wireless and graphics drivers (and possibly something else)

Khannie

Pygmalion wrote: »

This s the only reason really.
If there an easy way that Ubuntu could legally be distributed with these drivers it probably would be.

Complaining about how it's due to "purism" won't help unless you can make it legal to distribute these things worldwide.

How come mint does it then? (geniune question)

Eliot Rosewater

Well if it is due to legal issues then I stand corrected and apologies Though part of the reason I did think it was purism was because the Mint team do put in some of the proprietary stuff.

@matrim Point taken

matrim

Khannie wrote: »

How come mint does it then? (geniune question)

Ubuntu is backed by Canoical so would be a prime candidate to sue if it broke any copyright. Mint is backed by a couple (?) of average guys so isn't worth sueing

Pygmalion

Khannie wrote: »

How come mint does it then? (geniune question)

No idea, but the Mint download page also has a "Universal" version without that stuff, which they state is to make redistribution easier.
So if it is legal for them to include proprietary software they at least acknowledge that it's not legal to redistribute it in a Magazine, re-sell it, or distribute it at all in the USA or Japan.

Perhaps Ubuntu could do it however they do it (or perhaps they're only getting away with it due to their location or their relatively small size, I'm not sure) but they'd also have to maintain separate ISOs for the US/Japan user groups, for Magazines and for re-sellers if they did so.

To be honest I haven't got a clue if they above is very accurate, or why exactly they don't, that's just how I perceive it :P, but I recall the legal argument was always the excuse for not including codecs and some drivers in most distros.

Stuxnet

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

t with an option to "activate" wireless drivers. I clicked on it, and then a box came up: "Need to download drivers..." A Catch 22, no less!

err not really, the wireless drivers are on the cd, (broadcom is anyhow) you need to enable the cd source in your source list, then you can download it from the cd, reboot, and boom there's wireless installed ready for the webs ! all done without a connection out of the box

pickarooney

I had to regress to Jaunty because Karmic simply would not work with my TV Tuner whereas previous releases supported it out of the box. For the time being I'm fine with my distro version but I don't want the hassle of upgrading in the future only to find the problem is still the same.

So, I got a liveCD of Mint and booted to it. I tried to run tvtime but it failed because of the crappy video drivers. So I clicked on thy hand 'proprietary drivers' button which required a reboot at the tend. Of course, after rebooting to the live CD the drivers were gone again... ultimate Catch-22 and one that will surely put off a lot of people.

LiveCDs are brilliant in some aspect but when you can't even test hardware compatibility with them, they're worse than useless in others. would it really be such an issue for Mint or Ubuntu to bundle the nVidia/ATI drivers as standard with the Live/installation CD?

BTW, I tried using a virtual machine to install Mint, but after installing the nvidia drivers I couldn't get a display at all, which doesn't inspire confidence.

BOBBY wrote:

err not really, the wireless drivers are on the cd, (broadcom is anyhow) you need to enable the cd source in your source list, then you can download it from the cd, reboot, and boom there's wireless installed ready for the webs ! all done without a connection out of the box

Realistically you'd need access to the internet to find this information though - I've always found it really odd that the CD was not enabled as a source by default.

Capt'n Midnight

If you are doing a clean install of ANY OS on a laptop then do it with a network cable connected directly to your router. When you get the wireless drivers sorted then log into the management page on the Access point and cut/paste the passphrase from it. Saves messing around with USB keys and such, if you can remember the passphrase then it probably isn't secure enough


LOL I can remember the days when windows 95 upgrade CD used to remove the old DOS CD drivers during the install, which made it interesting when it went looking for more files after the reboot. Windows is much better now, but still won't be able to load any wireless drivers for any device released after the cut off point for inclusion in the windows cd/dvd - in the case of Vista this would be nearly a decade ago


Do not be suprised that the ubuntu CD doesn't contain every driver ever written, it can't, but it does a pretty good job of getting your computer to a point where you can get the rest from the internet. ( this is true of most other OS's as well , even if you had a complete local mirror you may need to use ndiswan for some cards and still have to search the interweb for a driver )


The problem with wireless drivers is that there are so many different ones and you have the whole find the AP and setup the wireless encryption thing too, with an on board card you only have to talk to the card.

matrim

pickarooney wrote: »

I had to regress to Jaunty because Karmic simply would not work with my TV Tuner whereas previous releases supported it out of the box. For the time being I'm fine with my distro version but I don't want the hassle of upgrading in the future only to find the problem is still the same.

So, I got a liveCD of Mint and booted to it. I tried to run tvtime but it failed because of the crappy video drivers. So I clicked on thy hand 'proprietary drivers' button which required a reboot at the tend. Of course, after rebooting to the live CD the drivers were gone again... ultimate Catch-22 and one that will surely put off a lot of people.

LiveCDs are brilliant in some aspect but when you can't even test hardware compatibility with them, they're worse than useless in others. would it really be such an issue for Mint or Ubuntu to bundle the nVidia/ATI drivers as standard with the Live/installation CD?

BTW, I tried using a virtual machine to install Mint, but after installing the nvidia drivers I couldn't get a display at all, which doesn't inspire confidence.



Realistically you'd need access to the internet to find this information though - I've always found it really odd that the CD was not enabled as a source by default.

Have you tried creating a liveUSB? It's fairly easy to do and as it's persistent should allow you to test after enabling the drivers and rebooting

pickarooney

I haven't but now that you mention it, it seems like an obvious solution

Stuxnet

pickarooney wrote: »

Realistically you'd need access to the internet to find this information though

i hear ya,
come ubuntu 10.04, it will come with free beginners manual, detailing everything
good move

Hotblack Desiato

pickarooney wrote: »

So I clicked on thy hand 'proprietary drivers' button which required a reboot at the tend. Of course, after rebooting to the live CD the drivers were gone again...

Did you try logging out and in again after installing the drivers, instead of rebooting? Usually all that's needed with any change in video drivers, settings, etc. is to log out of X, not reboot.

Naikon

I use the Nvidia drivers for some games(Mainly Quake). Don't care that they are non free, but I would not have a production system using non userspace closed code for that matter. Desktops are fine in my eyes however.

pickarooney

ninja900 wrote: »

Did you try logging out and in again after installing the drivers, instead of rebooting? Usually all that's needed with any change in video drivers, settings, etc. is to log out of X, not reboot.

I didn't. I took the installer at its word when it said a system restart was necessary. I didn't really see why it would be but thought that perhaps installing the drivers involved a corresponding kernel update so erred on the side of caution. I'll give it a shot next time without rebooting though.