What Happened Our Innovation?

LoopyLaura

Ten years ago we were seen as an innovative little people. We were all so highly educated, we all knew java and c++. Now look at us, our little economy is a shadow of its former self.

We need to innovate, innovate and innovate. Come on guys, lets turn this around. :cool:

syklops

Well lots of people left colleges and even secondary school to go and become plasterers and brick layers so they could earn more than people who knew C++ and Java.

As a result of a drop in numbers attending colleges, the Dept of Education made colleges easier to get into and easier to get degrees from. The result of this is brilliant people did not get the challenge they needed and may not have reached full potential. People innovate more when they are under pressure, when they are struggling.

The drop out culture that has evolved in our Universities is basically a symptom of that. When people start to struggle they drop out. Then they go on the dole and just drink for a few years and then go to Australia to look for work, because they cant get anything in Ireland because they are qualified for nothing.

ei.sdraob

people of this country learned a new word

"entitlement"

LoopyLaura

Our maybe as my mate said, the Irish were conned from the start!

syklops

LoopyLaura wrote: »

Our maybe as my mate said, the Irish were conned from the start!

What???

Conned by whom?

LoopyLaura

syklops wrote: »

What???

Conned by whom?

Well, do you really believe that the Irish were doing anything that could not have been done anywhere across europe?

The irish have been on a 15 year ego trip.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

ricman

BECAUSE of partnership agreement, property bubble , high civil service wages etc we lost our competive edge ,ie when they average house costs 200k, everyones wages had to go up, they billions borrowed from german banks ,kept it going until 2 years ago.
WE have a mediocre education system ,ie the leaving cert is designed so you memorise loads of info,ie its designed so you can get x amount of points to do a certain course.
its not designed to help people think,innovate or be creative, so alot of people
struggle when the reach college ,cos then they have to work for themselves , ie if you miss half the classes ,no1 may not even notice it.
WE need a leaving cert based on logic, creativity ,innovation,
not just memorise as many facts as you can, most of which you will forget as soon as you leave school.
WE are not out of the bubble, and faced with carrying massive depts,increasing taxes,
and a mediocre infrastructure.
COMPANYS are closing down cos the rents, rates ,taxes are too high or they cannot get credit from banks.
ITS like the perfect storm of economic stress.
THATS why young people are starting to emigrate.
Our WAGE rates and civil service costs got completely out of control
under a government driven by cronyism,greed, or incompentance.
The only reason i can see to set up here now, is low corporation tax, and maybe wages will
reduce in the future to more realistic levels,
ie if you can buy a house 4 150k, you dont need so high of a wage.
WE should have reformed the civil service 7 years ago, and modernised the leaving cert.
ITS gonna be tough to restart now, with 70billion dept , increasing taxes and
services being cut.
A rating agency says the boom money was mostly wasted on houses, the only good thing we
did is build a motorway network.
THE government should set up a proper hispeed broadband network ,say everyone gets 4gig per sec minimum.BUT its too late ,the money is gone.
it would stimulate the economy and attract multinationals and help startups.
and we are competing with countrys like korea,
with super fast 20gig broadband and state of the art hi tech universitys with great
computer science /engineeering departments.

fontanalis

I think we have a bit of an over inflated opinion of ourselves, a bit too much misty eye romantacism at home and abroad.

kuntboy

That's what happens when a working-class scumbag who should have been driving a bus becomes Taoiseach. He brought his working-class values and mentality and bought off his working class scumbag buddies in the Unions. I used to cringe everytime he talked abroad about our "unpricidinted eco-nomic grote".

Scofflaw

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Older entrepreneurs, on the other hand, have kids in school and the like, and will hang around anyway. Luckily, those are the ones with some actual business experience.

cordially,
Scofflaw

SLUSK

kuntboy wrote: »

That's what happens when a working-class scumbag who should have been driving a bus becomes Taoiseach. He brought his working-class values and mentality and bought off his working class scumbag buddies in the Unions. I used to cringe everytime he talked abroad about our "unpricidinted eco-nomic grote".

Yup working class people are the scum of the earth... Is that what you are trying to say?

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

kuntboy

To this day that visionless buffoon who should have been driving a taxi blames "de inter-nashnal facters" for the recession. What other country on earth elects his like to office? Could you imagine a chav being elected Prime Minister in the UK? Maybe if someone with refinement instead of a world leader who aspires to be a football pundit had been there...

And no, you won't bait me with your lazy attempt...

Count Dooku

Scofflaw wrote: »

Older entrepreneurs, on the other hand, have kids in school and the like, and will hang around anyway. Luckily, those are the ones with some actual business experience.

Experience from running a shop or reselling imported goods will not help in export industries.
90% of Irish export is coming from foreign owned companies. Entrepreneurs with experience from local market only can only help MNC’s workers spend as much possible here, but not able to bring any real wealth to Ireland

97i9y3941

LoopyLaura wrote: »

Ten years ago we were seen as an innovative little people. We were all so highly educated, we all knew java and c++. Now look at us, our little economy is a shadow of its former self.

We need to innovate, innovate and innovate. Come on guys, lets turn this around. :cool:

that kinda stuff doesnt work anymore,the tax breaks woundnt even lure them,only to look at dell,they f#cked off and gave the jobs to people who only needed to put parts together,sometimes i think these education rubbish doesnt work,alot of companies pulled out and went abroad to places where people can barely read or count...

syklops

Fred83 wrote: »

that kinda stuff doesnt work anymore,the tax breaks woundnt even lure them,only to look at dell,they f#cked off and gave the jobs to people who only needed to put parts together,sometimes i think these education rubbish doesnt work,alot of companies pulled out and went abroad to places where people can barely read or count...

But the workers of Dell weren't programmers and engineers. For the most part they were assembly-line workers. So when things got tough of course they were going to leave. 8 euros odd an hour per person to put computers together? Compared to the likes eastern europe where its more like 2 euros an hour. Dell could move elsewhere and double the workforce and at the same time save 50% on wages.

theg81der

I saw some post giving college students a hard time and I had to post to defend them. Theres nothing wrong now with the level of accessability to college - that was the problem before. The problem now is the courses are not practical or job focused, theres a lot of repetition which is boring and when a subject is complex theres not enough help and time allocated to it.

The other BIG problem is the actual courses are designed to suit the lecturers that are on staff, particularly this year. And the wrong lecturers were choosen initially and because they are permanent they are what we`re stuck with, not the great innovative ones that we want.

And all the business subject group are a huge waste of time your doing 4 of the exact same bullsh*t that will never add to your employability no matter how interesting some of it is.

syklops

theg81der wrote: »

I saw some post giving college students a hard time and I had to post to defend them. Theres nothing wrong now with the level of accessability to college - that was the problem before. The problem now is the courses are not practical or job focused, theres a lot of repetition which is boring and when a subject is complex theres not enough help and time allocated to it.

The other BIG problem is the actual courses are designed to suit the lecturers that are on staff, particularly this year. And the wrong lecturers were choosen initially and because they are permanent they are what we`re stuck with, not the great innovative ones that we want.

And all the business subject group are a huge waste of time your doing 4 of the exact same bullsh*t that will never add to your employability no matter how interesting some of it is.

I think that was my post, and I wasn't giving students a hard time. I was giving the dept of eduction a hard time.

There is a problem with the accessibility of college. Its too easy to get into. Grade inflation has been increasing over the past few years in both secondary school and third level. This is bad. This gives people the suggestion that they dont need to work that hard to get somewhere, which is incorrect.

You said the courses are not practical or job focused. Is that all courses or is that your experience from your course. By the way what course are you doing?

As for your comment that there is alot of repetition and its boring, all I have to say is thats life. Most jobs are repetitive and boring or at least have aspects which are repetitive and boring.

ei.sdraob

syklops wrote: »

But the workers of Dell weren't programmers and engineers. For the most part they were assembly-line workers. So when things got tough of course they were going to leave. 8 euros odd an hour per person to put computers together? Compared to the likes eastern europe where its more like 2 euros an hour. Dell could move elsewhere and double the workforce and at the same time save 50% on wages.

You don't need to be highly educated to be put together computers from legolike parts

anyone who ever build a computer would tell you it aint rocket science, and if anything can be highly automated

If anything im surprised Dell didn't leave earlier, anyways they sold their factory now and outsourced what used to be their core business (yes crazy i know)

syklops

ei.sdraob wrote: »

You don't need to be highly educated to be put together computers from legolike parts

anyone who ever build a computer would tell you it aint rocket science, and if anything can be highly automated

If anything im surprised Dell didn't leave earlier, anyways they sold their factory now and outsourced what used to be their core business (yes crazy i know)

I agree 100%. I have another point to make but I have to go to work.

ynotdu

kuntboy wrote: »

To this day that visionless buffoon who should have been driving a taxi blames "de inter-nashnal facters" for the recession. What other country on earth elects his like to office? Could you imagine a chav being elected Prime Minister in the UK? Maybe if someone with refinement instead of a world leader who aspires to be a football pundit had been there...

And no, you won't bait me with your lazy attempt...

So Irish People as individuals are Sheep?
People did not want to hear the truth,they preferred to queue up for three days to buy a Very average house at 450,000 euro.
a little bit of seeing through the illusion that was the 'Celtic tiger' went very astray.
When it suited the Sun shone from Berties ass,no doubt we had short sighted leaders,thats what politics is about.
the day people will take responsibility for their own bad judgement instead of whinging about being conned will be the time a real change will take place.
It was Irelands people who Chose to make a balls of it by not seeing how Stupid they were being by questioning nothing when 'they were alright jack'

Scofflaw

Count Dooku wrote: »

Experience from running a shop or reselling imported goods will not help in export industries.
90% of Irish export is coming from foreign owned companies. Entrepreneurs with experience from local market only can only help MNC’s workers spend as much possible here, but not able to bring any real wealth to Ireland

And Enterprise Ireland agree with you. Something of a bootstrap problem there.

cordially,
Scofflaw

ei.sdraob

Scofflaw wrote: »

And Enterprise Ireland agree with you. Something of a bootstrap problem there.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Enterprise Ireland would not fund any IT/Computing/Communications related companies, but there are exceptions

I seen first hand how EI operate over last few years and its a disgusting waste of money, so much good money thrown after bad projects, and when they go bad they attempt to paint it in pink hues to make things not appear as bad (if the papers ever get whiff of some of the spectacular failures):

* company A go to EI and get a large grant (Innovation Partnership) for a business model that amounted to nothing more than importing hardware and reselling it here with added service, what's worse is the technology aspect of this was over-hyped and doesn't work in practice (and everyone told them it doesnt but the director knew, he had no issues with lying to EI and customers), the company is now going under, it left behind customers who paid alot for solutions that promised the moon but delivered nothing, and employees who got used and paid in IOUs

* company B go to EI and are refused any funding (for research), company B is now 4 years in business, increasing its turnover year on year and now close to 250K year turnover with a large profit margin as costs are constantly falling, why was company B snuffed? yep their service is internet based (and hence high risk) and now used by close to million customers a day, i wonder where they would be now if the research money was granted, since more efficient technology use directly drives down the costs


sorry for long post, unfortunately it iirks me to no end hearing the words "smart economy" and how the government does everything to support business, no they dont if anything they stand in the way like a rotting bureaucratic corpse

zootroid

When I was in my final year university (in 2005), a group of people from Enterprise Ireland came in to talk to us. I wasn't particularly impressed. They spoke about Ireland needing to move up the value chain. While the concept is true, the lecture was so vague, it sounded like it could have been the essay of an undergrad student.

maninasia

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Enterprise Ireland would not fund any IT/Computing/Communications related companies, but there are exceptions

I seen first hand how EI operate over last few years and its a disgusting waste of money, so much good money thrown after bad projects, and when they go bad they attempt to paint it in pink hues to make things not appear as bad (if the papers ever get whiff of some of the spectacular failures):

* company A go to EI and get a large grant (Innovation Partnership) for a business model that amounted to nothing more than importing hardware and reselling it here with added service, what's worse is the technology aspect of this was over-hyped and doesn't work in practice (and everyone told them it doesnt but the director knew, he had no issues with lying to EI and customers), the company is now going under, it left behind customers who paid alot for solutions that promised the moon but delivered nothing, and employees who got used and paid in IOUs

* company B go to EI and are refused any funding (for research), company B is now 4 years in business, increasing its turnover year on year and now close to 250K year turnover with a large profit margin as costs are constantly falling, why was company B snuffed? yep their service is internet based (and hence high risk) and now used by close to million customers a day, i wonder where they would be now if the research money was granted, since more efficient technology use directly drives down the costs


sorry for long post, unfortunately it iirks me to no end hearing the words "smart economy" and how the government does everything to support business, no they dont if anything they stand in the way like a rotting bureaucratic corpse

I've heard they've messed up a lot.

What's missing are the sales channels and sheer hard work and risk that needs to be put in to succeed in business. A lot of success is due to hard work and innovation, while sometimes neccessary, is often a smaller part.
I think Irish people don't really get that or if they do they have softer options (or did) like the public services or the dole.

ei.sdraob

maninasia wrote: »

I've heard they've messed up a lot.

What's missing are the sales channels and sheer hard work and risk that needs to be put in to succeed in business. A lot of success is due to hard work and innovation, while sometimes neccessary, is often a smaller part.
I think Irish people don't really get that or if they do they have softer options (or did) like the public services or the dole.

whats funny is that one of the companies affected by the Company A scam mentioned 2 posts up, are in charge of certain large media/news outlet in Ireland that all of you know

you can count on the fact that they definitely wont be reporting incident of them being taken for a ride

MaceFace

LoopyLaura wrote: »

Ten years ago we were seen as an innovative little people. We were all so highly educated, we all knew java and c++. Now look at us, our little economy is a shadow of its former self.

We need to innovate, innovate and innovate. Come on guys, lets turn this around. :cool:

May I say something which may sounds a bit cheeky: What innovation did you think we had 10 years ago that we don't have now?

Remember that 10 years ago, the dot-com bubble burst and we have still not recovered from it.
Up to 10 years ago, there was a sense that IT was lined with gold and there were jobs for all, no matter what your ability.

Because of the large lay offs between 2000 and 2003, this has led to college entrants choosing different subjects to study (and not just going into the building trade which people may think).

Also 10 years ago it was much easier to acquire start up capital from VCs which obviously is a lot more difficult. If you want to start your own IT company now, you need a bundle of your own cash as it is much harder to have people invest in you, get loans from the banks, or supplement your income with side ventures such as training and consultancy.

Today, we have changed in our approach and I have been impressed with the roles of colleges and universities. Many of them are offering "hothouse programes" where you can work under expert supervision with likeminded people and the colleges will take a cut of your business for helping you out, so it is very much in their interest that you succeed.
This is how many companies started in the US and is only getting going in Ireland today, but it is one of the reasons many of the multi-millionaires are so young.

You might think that the likes of China and India have innovated more than us, but if you look at them, they only offer one thing - cheap, plentiful labour.
Having worked with many Indian engineers, while they are individually very good here in Ireland and elsewhere, in the Indian environment, they are pretty poor. Companies tend to offload their mundane, less creative projects to India, but they do need a lot of handholding.
Now India is getting more expensive, companies are looking to China. China is different in that it is a lot cheaper and I personally have been more impressed with the technical people out of this country, there are massive problems with IP rights. It is a very difficult place to do business because of the fear or industrial espionage or government interference.

The lack of English language and time zone difference is also a major concern, as they operate at the opposite end of the day than the US where everything revolves.

To improve innovation, what we really need is better broadband, cheaper cost of doing business, and less bureaucracy.
We also need a lot more quality graduates. The quality of candidates have suffered in the last 5 years, but maybe thats because with the sense of few quality jobs after college, it is not attracting enough good people.

The_Honeybadger

MaceFace wrote: »

To improve innovation, what we really need is better broadband, cheaper cost of doing business, and less bureaucracy.
We also need a lot more quality graduates. The quality of candidates have suffered in the last 5 years, but maybe thats because with the sense of few quality jobs after college, it is not attracting enough good people.

So lets award the national broadband contract to a mobile phone company and cut funding to third level, brilliant

MaceFace

mickeyk wrote: »

So lets award the national broadband contract to a mobile phone company and cut funding to third level, brilliant

What? Why would you want to do that?

The_Honeybadger

MaceFace wrote: »

What? Why would you want to do that?

Communications Minister Eamon Ryan has announced that mobile company 3 has been selected as the preferred tenderer for the National Broadband Scheme.

The scheme is aimed at delivering broadband to those areas of the country currently unserved. 3 was up against Eircom for the contract.

The Department of Communications says that work will be finalised on the contract in the coming weeks, with a final announcement expected next month.
Advertisement

'It is imperative that we have universal broadband coverage in Ireland, for foreign investment, for competitiveness and for our own businesses and householders,' said Minister Ryan.

The department estimates that about 10% of the country remains without a broadband service. It says the scheme, which involves a Government subsidy, will ensure that all reasonable requests for broadband in these areas are met.

3, owned by conglomerate Hutchison Whampoa, launched on the Irish market in 2005. It operates one of Ireland's 3G mobile phone licences under the 3 brand and has 300,000 customers, including 105,000 mobile broadband users.

Eircom said it was 'extremely disappointed' not to be awarded the contract, but remained committed to delivering broadband to as many parts of the country as possible. It said it would continue to support the Government in whatever way it could to deliver broadband

The heads of the country's universities have warned that Ireland's economic competitiveness is being damaged by cuts in third level funding.
They say the past eight years have seen a funding reduction of around €1,200 per student and that this has long-term implications for competitiveness.

Never said I wanted to do it but the government already have!

southsiderosie

I've said it before on boards, but if Ireland wants to encourage domestic innovation in technology, then there needs to be some serious cultural and regulatory changes. These would include a culture that celebrates and rewards risk-taking, entrepreneurship, and individual success, and reform of bankruptcy laws.

However, one area of regulation that is little mentioned, incredibly unpopular, but absolutely critical is immigration reform. Much of what I've read here focuses on the domestic workforce, or what the Irish can do, but a huge component of the success of technological innovation in the US can be traced to the influx of foreign students and workers. Almost a third of engineers in Silicon Valley are immigrants, and 1/4 of the heads of tech firms in Silicon Valley are Chinese and Indian immigrants who arrived as graduate students in the 70s, stayed, and built multi-million dollar businesses. However, Ireland has become incredibly hostile towards immigrants, and non-EU immigrants in particular - which is bad considering that the lifestyle in Dublin frankly can't compete with San Francisco or Boston, two major tech hubs in the US...not to mention the fact that the cost of living is actually HIGER in Dublin. :mad:

maninasia

I agree, they should welcome immigrants from anywhere in the world who have the proven smarts and ambition. Ireland also needs to increase links to Asia otherwise it will be left behind.

MagicSean

LoopyLaura wrote: »

Ten years ago we were seen as an innovative little people. We were all so highly educated, we all knew java and c++. Now look at us, our little economy is a shadow of its former self.

We need to innovate, innovate and innovate. Come on guys, lets turn this around. :cool:

The EU forced us to raise our industrial tax rates and destroyed the competitive advantage we had that brought the likes of Intel, Packard Bell and Dell.

ei.sdraob

k_mac wrote: »

The EU forced us to raise our industrial tax rates and destroyed the competitive advantage we had that brought the likes of Intel, Packard Bell and Dell.

ahahahaha

when did they do that now

thats right blame someone else for our own ****ups

southsiderosie

k_mac wrote: »

The EU forced us to raise our industrial tax rates and destroyed the competitive advantage we had that brought the likes of Intel, Packard Bell and Dell.

I thought the corporate tax rate was the one thing that was untouchable in Ireland? It's quite low relative to the rest of Western Europe.

Ireland's competitiveness has been destroyed by the astronomical cost of living and disproportionately high wages, which only makes the lack of good public services even more annoying. Why does it cost more to rent a single room in a house on the outskirts of Dublin than it does to rent an apartment in the center of Madrid which has an excellent metro, bus, and high-speed rail network? I'm also paying significantly more to live in Dublin that I did to live in Boston, where I was a 10 minute walk to the subway and a 20 minute walk to one of the region's biggest biotech clusters. I'm still shocked that Ireland didn't use the boom years to massively upgrade the Dublin city and regional transportation system. And these are all things that companies take into account when setting up shop (and things employees take into account when considering relocation).

MagicSean

ei.sdraob wrote: »

ahahahaha

when did they do that now

thats right blame someone else for our own ****ups

31st December 2003. Up til then the Manufacturing tax rate was 10%.

ei.sdraob

k_mac wrote: »

31st December 2003. Up til then the Manufacturing tax rate was 10%.

we have a Manufacturing Tax??

I presume you are talking about Corpo Tax, the EU has no say in the Corporation rates

MagicSean

It was only for certain areas and business types. As far as I remember it was considered unfairly competitive on other EU countries. I am open to correction on this. Its been a long time since I did economics.

ei.sdraob

k_mac wrote: »

It was only for certain areas and business types. As far as I remember it was considered unfairly competitive on other EU countries. I am open to correction on this. Its been a long time since I did economics.

such as?

the EU has no say in our direct taxes
never has and never will

MagicSean

ei.sdraob wrote: »

such as?

the EU has no say in our direct taxes
never has and never will

IFSC and Shannon are two areas I can think of. You're being quite naive there.

ei.sdraob

k_mac wrote: »

IFSC and Shannon are two areas I can think of. You're being quite naive there.

my god

how exactly has EU interfered in our taxes?

and what do IFSC and Shannon have to do with this??

MagicSean

ei.sdraob wrote: »

my god

how exactly has EU interfered in our taxes?

and what do IFSC and Shannon have to do with this??

There were certain zones in Ireland in which companies could claim a reduced tax rate. Pressure was put on Ireland to eliminate these zones as they were unfairly competitive agains other EU countries. If you want more details you'll have to ask an economist. I'm just telling you what I remember being told in college.

southsiderosie

k_mac wrote: »

There were certain zones in Ireland in which companies could claim a reduced tax rate. Pressure was put on Ireland to eliminate these zones as they were unfairly competitive agains other EU countries. If you want more details you'll have to ask an economist. I'm just telling you what I remember being told in college.

Quick Wiki search: Ireland has the lowest tax rates in Western Europe.

With EU integration, I think there may be restrictions on preferential trade agreements with individual countries - everything generally goes through the common market, no? This would potentially affect the Shannon free trade zone in that they don't or can't operate any differently than any other free trade zone in the common market, but that has more to do with trade policies (made at an EU level) not fiscal policies, which are made at a national level (well, for now anyway). Since Ireland can't control its trade or monetary policies as a member of the EU common market and the euro zone, the only way it can restore competitiveness is through wage reduction and deflation, some of which can be done through fiscal policy.

You can "blame" the EU for the fact that Ireland can't devalue its currency, but in the long run, I think Ireland needs the EU more than the EU needs Ireland.

baalthor

k_mac wrote: »

There were certain zones in Ireland in which companies could claim a reduced tax rate. Pressure was put on Ireland to eliminate these zones as they were unfairly competitive agains other EU countries. If you want more details you'll have to ask an economist. I'm just telling you what I remember being told in college.

You are correct ! - I had forgotten about the 10% manufacturing tax.

The EU argued that it was unfair competition because 1. It was very low and 2. It only applied to foreign companies in Ireland. Ireland's response was the unified 12.5% rate for everyone.

This article from 2001 describes why the 10% rate was phased out.

This rate drew fire from the European Union which claimed that Ireland’s low tax rate "unfairly" competed with the higher tax rates in other EU nations. They also attacked the 10 percent rate as "ringfencing" – taxing foreign taxpayers at a lower rate than domestic taxpayers – a practice that the EU and OECD have tried to eliminate with their Harmful Tax Competition projects.
Ireland did respond to the criticism, but rather than "harmonize" its rates upward to match those high-tax countries, it decided to replace the multi-tiered tax system with a uniform 12.5 percent corporate tax rate for all sectors beginning in 2003

More from Revenue and LowTax website.

MagicSean

baalthor wrote: »

You are correct ! - I had forgotten about the 10% manufacturing tax.

The EU argued that it was unfair competition because 1. It was very low and 2. It only applied to foreign companies in Ireland. Ireland's response was the unified 12.5% rate for everyone.

This article from 2001 describes why the 10% rate was phased out.
More from Revenue and LowTax website.

Thanks. I knew I'd heard it somewhere.