InfinitInk

oxygen

Im probably going to get lambasted for this on this forum, but has anyone looked into, thought about InfinitInk? I was just reading up about it this evening. Its a permanent but only takes one lazer session to remove, if you happen to change your mind 10 yrs down the line. Only available in the states at the mo, but Im heading to New York at the end of the year and was thinking about getting it done.

Does anyone know the quality of the tattoo, i.e. how black it the black etc.
At the moment, they only have black available, but thats the only colour Im looking for.

seanybiker

im only into black tattoos meself . Coloured tattoo just wouldnt suit me, anyways
you want to get a tattoo that you can get rid of down the line?
Leave it off man. No use getting something with the idea you can get rid of it. Not worth it man

Teferi

seanybiker wrote: »

im only into black tattoos meself . Coloured tattoo just wouldnt suit me, anyways
you want to get a tattoo that you can get rid of down the line?
Leave it off man. No use getting something with the idea you can get rid of it. Not worth it man

All you have to do is look at the "Whats the first tattoo you wanted" thread to see it's a pretty good idea. At least one person in there said they got their first tattoo covered up. If they had of got a tattoo with this ink they could have blasted it off and been left with pretty much fresh canvas for the artist

I definitely wouldn't be trying the ink too soon though. Their website says it has only been tested on 40+ people or so...

Reku

http://www.infinitink.com/docs/MSDS_infinitink.pdf

To me the MSDS says that they're a bit unsure/vague on details, as if you read about the technology it's not too different to the UV inks, just with a different ink inside the PMMA spheres, one that's designed to be attacked and broken down by the body when the PMMA sphere is ruptured, exposing it.

But anyway, to the point, due to how laser tattoo removal works the process will be different for PMMA products (different pigments need a different laser as such since the PMMA, not the pigment is the target here a laser that would be highly absorbed by the PMMA would be needed - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_Tattoo_Removal) and I'd like to see research specific to them and a full analysis of the potential products of the reaction before I felt this was safe. Polymers have a habit of behaving strangely when you hit them with laser pulses and much as most scientists would like to believe we understand lasers and their interaction with matter if you actually read through the literature it quickly becomes clear this is not the case.
This is why in a thread on UV ink a long time back I warned a poster to be wary about getting a UV tattoo if they were considering having it removed at a later date.

I had gone into a big long scientific rant about the best choice of laser and methodology for tattoo removal for PMMA encased inks but decided to delete it and spare you all. :pac:

oxygen

Reku wrote: »

I had gone into a big long scientific rant about the best choice of laser and methodology for tattoo removal for PMMA encased inks but decided to delete it and spare you all. :pac:

Reku, I would like to hear you opinion on laser and methodology for tattoo removal. I dont know what the story with laser removal is.

See I ask cause I would like a tattoo running the length of my upper arm. I would like it vertically not horizontally like a hoop. While it might look kinda cool now, in about 20 yrs, it would look very uncool,coming out from below a short sleeve. At least if I knew the option of a relatively hassle free removal was there, I would feel a bit better about it.

Star Lord

oxygen_temp wrote: »

Reku, I would like to hear you opinion on laser and methodology for tattoo removal. I dont know what the story with laser removal is.

See I ask cause I would like a tattoo running the length of my upper arm. I would like it vertically not horizontally like a hoop. While it might look kinda cool now, in about 20 yrs, it would look very uncool,coming out from below a short sleeve. At least if I knew the option of a relatively hassle free removal was there, I would feel a bit better about it.

To be honest and slightly blunt about it, if you have a feeling that you might go off it, it's not the tattoo for you.

Reku

oxygen_temp wrote: »

Reku, I would like to hear you opinion on laser and methodology for tattoo removal. I dont know what the story with laser removal is.

See I ask cause I would like a tattoo running the length of my upper arm. I would like it vertically not horizontally like a hoop. While it might look kinda cool now, in about 20 yrs, it would look very uncool,coming out from below a short sleeve. At least if I knew the option of a relatively hassle free removal was there, I would feel a bit better about it.

Well for one thing I'd have to echo DamoElDiablo's sentiment, in that if you are unsure about it do you really want to rely upon a technique that the creators may not have invested much time in really exploring and understanding.

But anyway, firstly there's the issue of PMMA's low absorption under visible light, it has a higher absorption under UV of under 300nm, however that is into the dangerous part of UV light and since the spheres are subdermal your skin would be exposed to this light. Throw in the fact that it's laser light, as opposed to far lower intensity sun-light, and there's probably a fair chance of undesireable molecular changes.
Hence you'd want to stick to the visible spectrum in spite of the lower absorption.
Interestingly if you do a google search for pmma laser processing all the lasers that are being mentioned in the results are either CO2 or Ti-sapphire, those that produce light in the red or longer end of the wavelength spectrum. As such since the standard reference for tattoo removal seems to refer to NdYAG it could be used at it's standard wavelength 1064nm.

PMMA is an amorphous polymer, so it's not going to just crack apart like a crystaline structure might, probably it'll just melt/singe, throw in the low absorption in the visible spectrum and I'd say you'll need either higher intensity light or a longer pulsewidth (if the specific goal is in fact to just melt the PMMA not fragment it), both of which will mean more damage to the skin also. The huge spot size they use for tattoo removal (sizes of mm instead of um) means that variation across the beam shouldn't be too great an issue and also that the intensity shouldn't be high enough to see formations of plasma and other 'funny' effects.
As a rule ablation = more energy into solid - liquid/gas transition, less into heat. Annealing/melting however = more into heat.
Now I don't know what energy is required to fragment the particles in most tattoo pigments, but PMMA has a melting point above 100 degrees, so if they're going to melt it with a laser I'd expect there to be some collateral damage to the surrounding skin. So while the tattoo may break up in fewer treatments it is possible that the skin will take longer after each treatment to heal. The good news is that as a polymer PMMA is not a good conductor, but that heat has to go somewhere, so you'll probably just get greater swelling as opposed to an actual burn.


lol
just read the side effects/risks sections of the wiki on laser tattoo removal and you'd be put off it:eek:

Side effects and complications
About half of the patients treated with Q-switched lasers for tattoo removal will show some transient changes in the normal skin pigmentation. These changes usually resolve in 6 to 12 months but may rarely be permanent.

Hyperpigmentation is related to the patient's skin type, with skin types IV,V and VI more prone regardless of the wavelength used. Twice daily treatment with hydroquinones and broad-spectrum sunscreens usually resolves the hyperpigmentation within a few months, although, in some patients, resolution can be prolonged.

Transient textural changes are occasionally noted but often resolve within a few months, however, permanent textural changes and scarring very rarely occur. If a patient is prone to pigmentary or textural changes, longer treatment intervals are recommended. Additionally, if a patient forms a blister or crust post treatment, it is imperative that they do not manipulate this secondary skin change. Early removal of a blister of crust increases the chances of developing a scar. Additionally, patients with a history of hypertrophic or keloidal scarring need to be warned of their increased risk of scarring.

Most of the above I'd expect

Local allergic responses to many tattoo pigments have been reported, and allergic reactions to tattoo pigment after Q-switched laser treatment are also possible. Rarely, when yellow cadmium sulfideis used to "brighten" the red or yellow portion of a tattoo, a photoallergic reaction may occur. The reaction is also common with red ink, which may contain cinnabar (mercuric sulphide). Erythema, pruritus, and even inflamed nodules, verrucose papules, or granulomas may present. The reaction will be confined to the site of the red/yellow ink. Treatment consists of strict sunlight avoidance, sunscreen, interlesional steroid injections, or in some cases, surgical removal. Unlike the destructive modalities described, Q-switched lasers mobilize the ink and may generate a systemic allergic response. Oral antihistamines and anti-inflammatory steroids have been used to treat allergic reactions to tattoo ink.

Sounds like there's more than just particle fragementation going on there and they're actually causing chemical reactions and molecular fragmentation if the actual chemical makeup was not an issue before treatment but suddenly causes a reaction afterwards.

Studies of various tattoo pigments have shown that a number of pigments (most containing iron oxide or titanium dioxide) change color when irradiated with Q-switched laser energy. Some tattoo colors including flesh tones, light red, white, peach and light brown containing pigments as well as some green and blue tattoo pigments, changed to black when irradiated with Q-switched laser pulses. The resulting gray-black color may require more treatments to remove. If tattoo darkening does occur, after 8 weeks the newly darkened tattoo can be treated as if it were black pigment.

Again this says to me that there's actual chemical changes being caused, not just changes to the size of the particles.

Very rarely, Q-switched laser treatment can rupture blood vessels and aerosolizes tissue requiring a plastic shield or a cone device to protect the laser operator from tissue and blood contact. Protective eye-wear may be worn if the laser operator choose to do so.

Ohh, boiling blood, that sounds healthy....:p
I kid, the actual boiling is localised to where the laser hits remember so not really something to worry about. But it does suggest that bruising is quite possible.

With the mechanical or salabrasion method of tattoo removal, the incidence of scarring, pigmentary alteration (hyper- and hypopigmentation),and ink retention are extremely high.[23]

The use of Q-switched lasers could very rarely produce the development of large bulla. However, if patients follow post care directions to elevate, rest, and apply intermittent icing, it should minimize the chances of bulla and other adverse effects. In addition, health care practitioners should contemplate the use of a cooling device during the tattoo removal procedure. While the infrequent bulla development is a possible side effect of Q-switched laser tattoo removal, if treated appropriately and quickly by the health care practitioner, it is unlikely that long term consequences would ensue.[24]

[edit] Risks
While generally accepted as a safe treatment and the gold standard method to remove a tattoo, complications of laser tattoo removal include the possibility of discoloration of the skin such as hypopigmentation (white spots, more common in darker skin) and hyperpigmentation (dark spots) as well and textural changes. Very rarely, burns may result in scarring.

So even with normal pigments actual burns can occur!

Rarely, "paradoxical darkening" of a tattoo may occur, when a treated tattoo becomes darker instead of lighter. This seems to occur more often with flesh tones, pink, and cosmetic make-up tattoos. .[25][26]

Some of the pigments used (especially Yellow #7) are known to break down into toxic chemicals in the body when attacked by light. This is especially a concern if these tattoos are exposed to UV light or laser removal; the resulting degradation products end up migrating to the kidneys and liver. Laser removal of traumatic tattoos may similarly be complicated depending on the substance of the pigmenting material. In one reported instance, the use of a laser resulted in the ignition of embedded particles of firework debris.[27]

Felt the bold-red text needed highlighting as this would be my biggest concern with PMMA enclosed inks and laser tattoo removal. What are the potential molecules that could be formed by PMMA under these circumstances, where is InfinitInk's research on this? Well done on coming up with the concept but the same could be said for the folks who came up with thalidomide for morning sickness. Alas until there are enough folks who undergo the procedure or there are animal tests performed there won't be any real data available for analysis.
The only reason I trust the UV inks is that there was animal testing, I've never read anything on testing tattoo removal on them though.

Have to dash so I'm sorry if there's any poor phrasing or typos, if you spot any I'll try clarify/fix them later.