Reasons why tv "has gone down the crapper"

Richard Dower

I'm sure everyone has an opinion on this, please share your thoughts.
I blame Big Brother...cheap "reality tv" made for pennies, and the needs for ratings.

Delirium

I blame the viewers.

They wouldn't be making most shows if knew they weren't going to get the viewer numbers. A lot of shows have a minimum number of viewers they need to achieve so they can have another series.

MikeC101

It hasn't. There's a lot more crap because there are so many more shows / channels available to us these days, but there's also a lot of quality stuff. Sturgeons Law - "Ninety percent of everything is crud."

There's always been people moaning that television / movies / music / the youth of today is so much worse than it was in some nostalgia tinted "old days", but it doesn't make it so. Hell, there were probably cavemen bemoaning the new style of cave paintings and how things were better in the old days when they used less stool and more urine in the mix.

If anything, I'd say we've hit a new high of quality television - there's been a hell of a lot of good viewing in the last decade. Easy to avoid the crap.

Forest Master

As above - it's just that there are more channels, meaning there is more of everything: both good & crap.

There have been lots of amazing shows in the last decade:

South Park
The Wire
The Shield
Curb Your Enthusiasm
Entourage
The Office
Extras
Shameless
Flight of the Conchords
Family Guy
The Sopranos
Charlie Brooker's Screenwipe/Newswipe
Reeling in the Years
24
Louis Theroux
Rescue Me
Brotherhood

And even some reality shows have been good, like Survivor, The Amazing Race, The Ultimate Fighter, and Dragons Den.

etc.

krudler

MikeC101 wrote: »

It hasn't. There's a lot more crap because there are so many more shows / channels available to us these days, but there's also a lot of quality stuff. Sturgeons Law - "Ninety percent of everything is crud."

There's always been people moaning that television / movies / music / the youth of today is so much worse than it was in some nostalgia tinted "old days", but it doesn't make it so. Hell, there were probably cavemen bemoaning the new style of cave paintings and how things were better in the old days when they used less stool and more urine in the mix.

If anything, I'd say we've hit a new high of quality television - there's been a hell of a lot of good viewing in the last decade. Easy to avoid the crap.

+1 on this, people seem to think the 80s and 90s were a golden era of tv, they werent, there was just as much sh1te on then as there is now, instead of I'm a Celebrity we had Its A Knockout, instead of Fair Sh1tty we had Glenroe, add in dozens of rinse and repeat US cop shows and detective dramas and it was just as bad. Even the "classic" shows like the A-Team and such are hard to watch now cos they're so sh1te.

This decade gave us The Wire, The West Wing,The Sopranos, Band of Brothers, Mad Men, Californication, 24, the list is pretty huge

Biggins

A number of reasons.

One reason that is stated by many is the fast times we live in.
We are busy getting on with our lives between Play Stations, PSP's, X-Boxes, personal hobbies, drink, friends, kids, food, and on and on and on...

So some programmes that are made now, are somewhat dumbed down, designed to grab you quick from the start, keep the plot simple, characters easier to define in a shorter period, shorter bursts of action, limited levels of sub-plots, etc...

Would the likes of "The West Wing" be made today from the start, I'd say it would stand less chance of making it to seven full years.
In the last two years alone I've seen too many GOOD possible tv programmes cancelled for the sake of some mental light reality and/or cheap rubbish to replace it instead.
Sad but thats the way it is in this "grab 'em quick" world.

......and thats just one reason.

amacachi

Biggins wrote: »

A number of reasons.

One reason that is stated by many is the fast times we live in.
We are busy getting on with our lives between Play Stations, PSP's, X-Boxes, personal hobbies, drink, friends, kids, food, and on and on and on...

So some programmes that are made now, are somewhat dumbed down, designed to grab you quick from the start, keep the plot simple, characters easier to define in a shorter period, shorter bursts of action, limited levels of sub-plots, etc...

Would the likes of "The West Wing" be made today from the start, I'd say it would stand less chance of making it to seven full years.
In the last two years alone I've seen too many GOOD possible tv programmes cancelled for the sake of some mental light reality and/or cheap rubbish to replace it instead.
Sad but thats the way it is in this "grab 'em quick" world.

......and thats just one reason.

The West Wing wasn't started that long ago. Just look at some of the series that came to an end over the last couple of years; The Wire, The Shield, The Sopranos (which I admit I haven't seen). The best TV shows ever have been in the very, very recent past and some are still going.

Biggins

amacachi wrote: »

The West Wing wasn't started that long ago. Just look at some of the series that came to an end over the last couple of years; The Wire, The Shield, The Sopranos (which I admit I haven't seen). The best TV shows ever have been in the very, very recent past and some are still going.

Very true - but would they last as long if just started to be made today?
The last two years alone has been some huge changes in the way tv companies are thinking and pulling shows even after just one episode!

abouttobebanned

The TV3 generation has turned me off telly.

I'm going to be incredibly sexist here but the stuff that you'll find only women like:

X factor
Strictly Come Dancing
Dancing on ice


actually...you know what...

Everything that's on TV3 basically.

amacachi

Biggins wrote: »

Very true - but would they last as long if just started to be made today?
The last two years alone has been some huge changes in the way tv companies are thinking and pulling shows even after just one episode!

That has always happened. A lot of "classic" shows only survived by luck and fluke.
The Wire only just lasted, it was plagued with pretty low ratings. The Shield would keep going IMO. From what I've heard of The Sopranos everyone would watch it no matter when it was on.
Right now we've got Breaking Bad, new season starting this Sunday, one of the finest pieces of television I've ever seen. Dexter, another brilliant show. They're the only two non-comedies I would make a point of watching right now, but I can think of few points in the recent past when there would've been more than 2 shows I'd've cared about.

Elmo

Cheap reality and formats are certainly to blame.

Executives not taking chances in particular in Britain with serials running 10 years past their Sell By Date.

ABC Women's TV, CBS's crime dramas and Fox's reality.

Channels like Buzz TV and Smile clogging up EPGs.

L31mr0d

Y'see, the kids, they listen to the rap music, which gives them the brain damage. With their hippin' and their hoppin', and their bippin', and their boppin'... so they don't know what the jazz is all about!

Elmo

L31mr0d wrote: »

Y'see, the kids, they listen to the rap music, which gives them the brain damage. With their hippin' and their hoppin', and their bippin', and their boppin'... so they don't know what the jazz is all about!

pickarooney

When you see shows like Chuck, which really should appeal to just about everyone, struggling to survive you have to ask what's wrong there.

I think there's a chicken and egg scenario where people don't want to 'commit' to a show without knowing if it's going to last beyond its first season, or even make it past 5 episodes. As a result the ratings are low and the show gets canned while people still watch 'safe' programs like 24 in their droves because it will be continued because people keep watching it etc. etc.

Shows then have to adapt and either dumb down or put all their eggs in the first basket of episodes (work with me, I'm metaphored out) which dilutes the rest of the season. How many programmes do we see which start out promising and peter out by episode 6 because the pace of the 'grabber' episodes is unsustainable.

Then there's the 'makers of' factor. Shows associated with the big names in TV will inevitably get a slacker lease because they have the pull of the directors/writers/actors whereas talented new directors have to somehow prove themselves to impatient bean-counters and audiences spoiled for choice of channels.

And of course Joss Whedon who is synonymous with 'wood chopping tool' but still 'the guy who made Buffy' and afforded one more chance over and over

I liken it a bit to the tendency of football clubs to ditch their managers after two months of mediocre results, usually before they've had a chance to make an impression.

I think Biggins is right, The West Wing would get cancelled after 10 episodes if it were to start broadcasting tomorrow, The Wire (and its fans) might not be so lucky even a few short years after it found and made its way, and even Lost might struggle to get renewed given the budget required to make it.

I don't know if the answer is a third-world-family style of producing a truckload of shows in the hope one of them makes it or a first-world approach of nurturing one programme with all your resources. Hopefully there will always be diamonds in the dross, whatever happens.

Cinema though, it has to be said, has gone to the dogs of late.

themont85

Well British TV has gone down a notch in my opinion. There aren't as many good sitcoms and dramas on British tv, you only need to look at ITV. In saying that there still is good docs and some good programming (mainly and almost exclusively BBC and Channel 4 produced).

Reality TV hasn't all been bad. Some of the original stuff was entertaining (Big Brother season 1 before they went in it for 'fame', the Osbournes and Survivor), unfortunately this type of TV is so cheap to produce that its easy for them to make crap.

American TV has gotten better though, 10 times better. Since HBO started producing quality dramas the networks have picked up their game from the generic cop show of the 90s (although we still get a few of those). Now with AMC and Showtime as well making quality programmes we are well set for the future. In the late 90s/2000s era we had the Sopranos, the Wire, BoB, Generation Kill, the West Wing, Dexter et al. Quality breeds quality. The infusion of movie standard production cannot be overlooked. The next period after this will be defined by Mad Men, the Pacific and many more I'm sure. More exciting to watch TV than go to the cinema these days.

Britains problem is that Sky don't have to do much to make money. Just buy up Hollywood's and the tv channels productions and people will pay. There is no premium HBO production like channel in Britain but people pay the same prices for imports. Sadly I don't see much innovation outside of the BBC and perhaps C4 in the next decade.

pickarooney

Actually Mad Men's success is a very good counter-argument to the one that says the Wire and the West Wing wouldn't survive today, so scratch that.

amacachi

themont85 wrote: »

Well British TV has gone down a notch in my opinion. There aren't as many good sitcoms and dramas on British tv, you only need to look at ITV. In saying that there still is good docs and some good programming (mainly and almost exclusively BBC and Channel 4 produced).

Reality TV hasn't all been bad. Some of the original stuff was entertaining (Big Brother season 1 before they went in it for 'fame', the Osbournes and Survivor), unfortunately this type of TV is so cheap to produce that its easy for them to make crap.

American TV has gotten better though, 10 times better. Since HBO started producing quality dramas the networks have picked up their game from the generic cop show of the 90s (although we still get a few of those). Now with AMC and Showtime as well making quality programmes we are well set for the future. In the late 90s/2000s era we had the Sopranos, the Wire, BoB, Generation Kill, the West Wing, Dexter et al. Quality breeds quality. The infusion of movie standard production cannot be overlooked. The next period after this will be defined by Mad Men, the Pacific and many more I'm sure. More exciting to watch TV than go to the cinema these days.

Britains problem is that Sky don't have to do much to make money. Just buy up Hollywood's and the tv channels productions and people will pay. There is no premium HBO production like channel in Britain but people pay the same prices for imports. Sadly I don't see much innovation outside of the BBC and perhaps C4 in the next decade.

BBC2 and Channel 4 are the only UK TV channels worth watching.

Just as a slight side-note, when people decry the amount of US shows which end up on Irish and British airwaves I think this is a good thing to point out. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most-watched_television_broadcasts#Italy We're not the only ones. :pac:

Elmo

themont85 wrote: »

American TV has gotten better though, 10 times better. Since HBO started producing quality dramas the networks have picked up their game from the generic cop show of the 90s (although we still get a few of those). Now with AMC and Showtime as well making quality programmes we are well set for the future. In the late 90s/2000s era we had the Sopranos, the Wire, BoB, Generation Kill, the West Wing, Dexter et al. Quality breeds quality. The infusion of movie standard production cannot be overlooked. The next period after this will be defined by Mad Men, the Pacific and many more I'm sure. More exciting to watch TV than go to the cinema these days.

I would said that HBO and the Cable Channels are having their golden age alright. But The Network channels NBC, ABC, CBS and Fox have all gone down the crapper.

ABC's constant Female Soap Operas
CBS's constant Jerry Bruheimer Cop Shows and their Chuck Lorrie comdies :rolleyes:
Fox's Reality TV
I don't know what NBC are doing.

You will also find few generic cop shows from the 1990's.

amacachi

pickarooney wrote: »

I think Biggins is right, The West Wing would get cancelled after 10 episodes if it were to start broadcasting tomorrow, The Wire (and its fans) might not be so lucky even a few short years after it found and made its way, and even Lost might struggle to get renewed given the budget required to make it.

As I said, The Wire had very low rating when it first broadcast, so that arguments holds very little water with me.

tipperaryboy

It's just due to the number of tv channels now.

Richard Dower

^ NBC are in the toilet, ratings and programming wise. C4 are in serious financial trouble....they might not last 18 months. Their biggest program Big Brother will end after BB11. It's shocking to think BB is still it's highest rated prgram.

I agree that the US cable channels are doing much better and taking more risks....but they can afford to, ratings wise. A program on a cable channel can pull in say 3 million while the big 4 (i exclude The CW) would need 8 million +

ixoy

amacachi wrote: »

As I said, The Wire had very low rating when it first broadcast, so that arguments holds very little water with me.

You're missing a very important point - 'The Wire' was on HBO. That's a subscription based service. They don't need advertising the way NBC (which made 'The West Wing') do. NBC need to ensure their TV appeals to these advertisers, whereas HBO can be riskier and not worry to the same degree since the subs mean they have most of the money needed to finance the shows.

themont85

Elmo wrote: »

I would said that HBO and the Cable Channels are having their golden age alright. But The Network channels NBC, ABC, CBS and Fox have all gone down the crapper.

ABC's constant Female Soap Operas
CBS's constant Jerry Bruheimer Cop Shows and their Chuck Lorrie comdies :rolleyes:
Fox's Reality TV
I don't know what NBC are doing.

You will also find few generic cop shows from the 1990's.

You ever see network TV in the 90s there? They always produced absolute **** in the main and will continue to do so. But the quality of the dramas they have made-24, West Wing, Lost and many more far exceed what they made in the 90s.

amacachi

ixoy wrote: »

You're missing a very important point - 'The Wire' was on HBO. That's a subscription based service. They don't need advertising the way NBC (which made 'The West Wing') do. NBC need to ensure their TV appeals to these advertisers, whereas HBO can be riskier and not worry to the same degree since the subs mean they have most of the money needed to finance the shows.

Ah yeah, fair point, but the majority of good shows over the last while have come from subscription cable channels. Also I was replying to someone who said The Wire might not last if it started now. Had it been on a Network it wouldn't have lasted back then either.
When it comes to the main networks the answer is simple, too much competition and people are stupid.

Elmo

Richard Dower wrote: »

^ NBC are in the toilet, ratings and programming wise. C4 are in serious financial trouble....they might not last 18 months. Their biggest program Big Brother will end after BB11. It's shocking to think BB is still it's highest rated prgram.

I agree that the US cable channels are doing much better and taking more risks....but they can afford to, ratings wise. A program on a cable channel can pull in say 3 million while the big 4 (i exclude The CW) would need 8 million +

C4 is a government own company and there is a suggestion that BBC WW will merge with them to form a new company.

NBC own Telemundo (which is doing better than NCB AFAIK).

Cable services don't need to worry about audience. HBO doesn't show advertising. All they are interested in is subscriptions. Hence why they were willing to let The Wire go on for 5 seasons.

Elmo

themont85 wrote: »

You ever see network TV in the 90s there? They always produced absolute **** in the main and will continue to do so. But the quality of the dramas they have made-24, West Wing, Lost and many more far exceed what they made in the 90s.

ER, The Practice, Homicide: Life on the Streets, NYPD Blue, Murder One, The X Files, Millennium, American Gothic, Profiler .... Many of the quality dramas from 1999 on come from those from 1993 on.

don ramo

the main problem as said is trying to establish an audience for a new show, two shows ill describe would be jericho and dollhouse, jericho should have gone on for at least 4-5 seasons, and dollhouse should have been canned after 5 episodes,

jericho eased into its grove taking more than half the first season to vaugly establish who bombed america, it seemed what i would consider an accurate representation of how such a small town would react to this situation, then came the viewing figures, next thing we knew there were goverment conspiracies and multi-corporations, doing this and that, all which i think wasnt suppose to happen till maybe season 2 or 3, but the viewing figures damanded it, and they still didnt pick up, so the show got canned, thankfully due to fan pressure and 250tonnes to peanuts, the show got a renewal for 7 epsidoes, they were decent enough episodes, drawing in 6 million viewers, but inevitablly the show was cancelled never to be seen again,

dollhouse, terrible show, immediate start with goverment conspiracy, and a more implausable story line to boot, absolutly tanked in the ratings maybe 3-4 million in season 1, yet this was joss wheadon the cool kid who made buffy, so lets give him a chance, so he gets his second season, and the ratings more than halfed in season 2,

so can anyone figure out how the 6 million viewer show got the bums rush, and the 3-4 million viewers got a full second season,

so its not the viewers its the networks, with there useless nileson system,

there are decent shows out there more so than ever, its just finding them and getting the time to watch them, i still have to watch the wire and the shield, plus im stil watchin the west wing, all considered essential viewing, so i want to see this top rating shows, i just have to find the time,

Richard Dower

^ sorry - if you WATCHED Dollhouse from ep. 5 of S2 onwards you would note they were gripping and epic episodes.

don ramo

Richard Dower wrote: »

^ sorry - if you WATCHED Dollhouse from ep. 5 of S2 onwards you would note they were gripping and epic episodes.

i did watch it, it wasnt epic by any means, i wouldnt say a show is terrible without watching it,

Rjd2

ixoy wrote: »

You're missing a very important point - 'The Wire' was on HBO. That's a subscription based service. They don't need advertising the way NBC (which made 'The West Wing') do. NBC need to ensure their TV appeals to these advertisers, whereas HBO can be riskier and not worry to the same degree since the subs mean they have most of the money needed to finance the shows.

Well they cancelled Carnivale because it didn't get the ratings..:(

ixoy

I think then we can agree that it's not US TV that's gone down the crapper, but more specifically US network TV which is in poor shape! Plenty of good stuff on cable still where they can take more of a chance.

Rjd2 wrote: »

Well they cancelled Carnivale because it didn't get the ratings..:(

I didn't want to recall that

the_syco

"Back in the day" we would watch a few TV shows such as the A-Team, the Den, Kenan & Kell, etc, and probably go out and play kerbs, football, etc, when sh|te was on. Now, we (mostly) work, come home, and watch the tube, and not go out when the sh|te comes on, so have to put up with it.

Now, some of the crap that has been on back then is still on. Drearie bullsh|t crap like Corrie, Eastenders, and Fair City attracts the wimmin so is still on. Newer crap is being spurned out on a daily basis. Most of the time, if it has decent rating for season 1, they'll make a season 2. Could be miserable crap, but it seems the more miserable it is, the more people will watch it.

Just now, we have more channels, and thus are able to pick and choose. Unfortunately four good programs will be on at the same time in the prime time section, and for the rest of the night, we'll have crap.

Wish they hadn't f**ked up Red Dwarf, tbh.

Elmo

the_syco wrote: »

"Back in the day" we would watch a few TV shows such as the A-Team, the Den, Kenan & Kell, etc, and probably go out and play kerbs, football, etc, when sh|te was on. Now, we (mostly) work, come home, and watch the tube, and not go out when the sh|te comes on, so have to put up with it.

Now, some of the crap that has been on back then is still on. Drearie bullsh|t crap like Corrie, Eastenders, and Fair City attracts the wimmin so is still on.

I am up for a game of kerbs