National Track and Field League

shels4ever

Hi all,

Was jsut wondering how this actually works with divisions etc and what way the races are run etc

Is it Just premier Div and Div 1?

Your also allowed 2 members on a team that are not part of your club?

http://www.athleticsireland.ie/content/?p=7571


Thanks

MacSwifty

shels4ever wrote: »

Hi all,

Was jsut wondering how this actually works with divisions etc and what way the races are run etc

Is it Just premier Div and Div 1?

Your also allowed 2 members on a team that are not part of your club?

http://www.athleticsireland.ie/content/?p=7571


Thanks

2009 Timetable posted

Both 14th of June and July 5th are both Mondays

So expect further changes

shels4ever

MacSwifty wrote: »

2009 Timetable posted

Both 14th of June and July 5th are both Mondays

So expect further changes

Yep thats last years

This year is

June Sun 13 Woodie’s DIY National League Round 1

July Sun 18 Woodie’s DIY AAI National League Round 2

thirtyfoot

shels4ever wrote: »

Hi all,

Was jsut wondering how this actually works with divisions etc and what way the races are run etc

Is it Just premier Div and Div 1?

Your also allowed 2 members on a team that are not part of your club?

http://www.athleticsireland.ie/content/?p=7571


Thanks

Generally there are maybe 14-16 teams in Premier with the same in Div 1. There are 2 qualifying rounds. Teams split into 2 pools in 2 different venues. All events held with an athlete from each club in each event. You score 9-7-6 etc in each event. Your best 15 scoring events are added up. Then round 2 takes place and total points added up. Top 8 teams go to Final. Slate clean here and same process followed. Team with most points win league. Top 2 or 3 teams in the Div 1 Final go up, with bottom 2 or 3 (supposedly) going down.

Yes, you can have 2 guests. Other thing is that one athlete can only enter 2 track, 1 field event or vice versa plus 2 relays. So you need I'd say about 10 athletes to cover the bare minimum. If getting a guest, get one thrower who can throw 2 events and a sprinter who can cover maybe 4 events - 2 relays and 2 sprints.

IrishTrackFan1

Tingle wrote: »

Generally there are maybe 14-16 teams in Premier with the same in Div 1. There are 2 qualifying rounds. Teams split into 2 pools in 2 different venues. All events held with an athlete from each club in each event. You score 9-7-6 etc in each event. Your best 15 scoring events are added up. Then round 2 takes place and total points added up. Top 8 teams go to Final. Slate clean here and same process followed. Team with most points win league. Top 2 or 3 teams in the Div 1 Final go up, with bottom 2 or 3 (supposedly) going down.

Yes, you can have 2 guests. Other thing is that one athlete can only enter 2 track, 1 field event or vice versa plus 2 relays. So you need I'd say about 10 athletes to cover the bare minimum. If getting a guest, get one thrower who can throw 2 events and a sprinter who can cover maybe 4 events - 2 relays and 2 sprints.

Point of information I think that the leading qualifying teams take 8, 7, 6 etc points into the final based on their qualifying place.

thirtyfoot

IrishTrackFan1 wrote: »

Point of information I think that the leading qualifying teams take 8, 7, 6 etc points into the final based on their qualifying place.

Yes that is true but its 9,7,6,5.....

thirtyfoot

While we are on the topic, does anyone have any thoughts on the league. To me its a bit lacklustre and not what it was back in its heyday in the '90s when clubs like DCH, Crusaders, Nenagh, KCH, Ballymena, Annadale and others would get all their top athletes out.

I'd prefer a more competitive and smaller group at the top and more local, regional leagues beneath that as it would give the top clubs better competition and allow smaller clubs grow and develop with less travel and costs at the lower levels. Smaller clubs could push and strive to be become a Premier club. Right now its easy to be a Premier club if you have half a dozen 'power' athletes of a reasonable standard. No reason also why a league couldn't run for 5 or 6 rounds from April/May to August. Any thoughts?

shels4ever

Tingle wrote: »

While we are on the topic, does anyone have any thoughts on the league. To me its a bit lacklustre and not what it was back in its heyday in the '90s when clubs like DCH, Crusaders, Nenagh, KCH, Ballymena, Annadale and others would get all their top athletes out.

I'd prefer a more competitive and smaller group at the top and more local, regional leagues beneath that as it would give the top clubs better competition and allow smaller clubs grow and develop with less travel and costs at the lower levels. Smaller clubs could push and strive to be become a Premier club. Right now its easy to be a Premier club if you have half a dozen 'power' athletes of a reasonable standard. No reason also why a league couldn't run for 5 or 6 rounds from April/May to August. Any thoughts?

Thanks was thinking of trying to put together a BAC team but dont think we would manage to cover enough events, I could see some of our marathon guys having to sprint
But will see what people think, Used to run in the dublin track leagues as a junior and loved them.

IrishTrackFan1

shels4ever wrote: »

Thanks was thinking of trying to put together a BAC team but dont think we would manage to cover enough events, I could see some of our marathon guys having to sprint
But will see what people think, Used to run in the dublin track leagues as a junior and loved them.

I think the county based approach is a good step - there are some really decent teams starting to emerge in Kildare, Meath, Kerry. You could breathe some life into the county championships in the likes of Dublin by having the club that scores the most points in the county champs represent Dublin in the League (maybe allow two clubs through in the big counties using this mechanism?). Certainly you would need to recognise that most of the strong clubs are in Dublin for now at least.
Getting 32 decent teams would enable it to get to more rounds during the summer - and that should be another key aim.
There needs to be some way to move away from a small number of excellent athletes managing to carry a team - the winner should reflect the depth that a club has in some manner, rather than it just being 7 or 8 individuals

thirtyfoot

IrishTrackFan1 wrote: »

There needs to be some way to move away from a small number of excellent athletes managing to carry a team - the winner should reflect the depth that a club has in some manner, rather than it just being 7 or 8 individuals

More rounds and all rounds counting the same would do that - get rid of the 'roll out the big guns' in the final.

IrishTrackFan1

Tingle wrote: »

More rounds and all rounds counting the same would do that - get rid of the 'roll out the big guns' in the final.

True. Must take a look at the last couple of years results to see what effect scoring over the 3 days would make to the overall placings.

shels4ever

Tingle wrote: »

More rounds and all rounds counting the same would do that - get rid of the 'roll out the big guns' in the final.

What about smaller clubs(with less then 10 people)? Is there no real option then?

IrishTrackFan1

shels4ever wrote: »

What about smaller clubs(with less then 10 people)? Is there no real option then?

For now, and until the top division is established, I'd go with smaller clubs aiming to get as many as possible of their athletes on the county team.
There may be another competition for clubs with less than say 30 senior athletes down the road.
But now you are moving into club development policy and what is a sustainable minimum size for a club in a sport with 22 separate events across age groups from 10 to 70? Personally, outside of the major urban centres, I'm in favour of a federal solution with local clubs providing local access (and schools are an essential part of this) as part of a wider county view. That would mean somewhere between 32 and 40 'clubs' nationally and its hard to see how you could sustain any more and still deliver a quality of service across the events and age groups.
So imho, you need joined up thinking in order to integrate things like national league, club development, coaching and even high performance in order to get a sustainable model for the sport.

shels4ever

IrishTrackFan1 wrote: »

For now, and until the top division is established, I'd go with smaller clubs aiming to get as many as possible of their athletes on the county team.
There may be another competition for clubs with less than say 30 senior athletes down the road.
But now you are moving into club development policy and what is a sustainable minimum size for a club in a sport with 22 separate events across age groups from 10 to 70? Personally, outside of the major urban centres, I'm in favour of a federal solution with local clubs providing local access (and schools are an essential part of this) as part of a wider county view. That would mean somewhere between 32 and 40 'clubs' nationally and its hard to see how you could sustain any more and still deliver a quality of service across the events and age groups.
So imho, you need joined up thinking in order to integrate things like national league, club development, coaching and even high performance in order to get a sustainable model for the sport.

Good point, so the rule that you can have to non club members on a team could be changed to cater for smaller clubs ie have a joint club competing in the leage? I thnk I the UK some clubs have merged in this type of scenario in the past

anotheronebites

the top division needs to be smaller...2 groups of 8 teams with the top four teams making it to the final...all rounds needs to be early season with the final taking place no later than june 10th. that way the clubs can get the elites out more often as they wont have the excuse that they are away racing somewhere else. also there should be cash prizes for the winners of the league so that elites are more willing to do it so they can win some money. each club should pay the elites for showing up to it.

let the smaller clubs battle it out in the lower regional divisions but in fairness, the top tier of the league should be about elite competition..that's how it is for every other european country except for ireland and england. no one is going to get excited about a competition where jimmy down the road wins the 5k walk in 45mins...

also, there needs to be a consolidation of our top talent into a cluster of elite clubs..no more of this idea of still running for the little parish club...if we could get our elites to all join bigger clubs two things would happen...theyd make more money from those clubs...the league would actually be a worthwhile competition...with the clubs paying the athletes theyd have to do the league..the league would become a decent competition, eventually televised with more money involved from sponsors for those clubs so the athletes could make more money from the clubs etc etc and so the cycle goes. with all our talent spread out over numerous clubs it means the league will never be worthwhile. pick say 4 or 5 clubs...dsd, clonliffe, crusaders, leevale, that club up north that's pretty good...get all the elites to transfer into those clubs for a fee...then let the battles begin.

just an idea

IrishTrackFan1

anotheronebites wrote: »

the top division needs to be smaller...2 groups of 8 teams with the top four teams making it to the final...all rounds needs to be early season with the final taking place no later than june 10th. that way the clubs can get the elites out more often as they wont have the excuse that they are away racing somewhere else. also there should be cash prizes for the winners of the league so that elites are more willing to do it so they can win some money. each club should pay the elites for showing up to it.

let the smaller clubs battle it out in the lower regional divisions but in fairness, the top tier of the league should be about elite competition..that's how it is for every other european country except for ireland and england. no one is going to get excited about a competition where jimmy down the road wins the 5k walk in 45mins...

also, there needs to be a consolidation of our top talent into a cluster of elite clubs..no more of this idea of still running for the little parish club...if we could get our elites to all join bigger clubs two things would happen...theyd make more money from those clubs...the league would actually be a worthwhile competition...with the clubs paying the athletes theyd have to do the league..the league would become a decent competition, eventually televised with more money involved from sponsors for those clubs so the athletes could make more money from the clubs etc etc and so the cycle goes. with all our talent spread out over numerous clubs it means the league will never be worthwhile. pick say 4 or 5 clubs...dsd, clonliffe, crusaders, leevale, that club up north that's pretty good...get all the elites to transfer into those clubs for a fee...then let the battles begin.

just an idea

Lots of out of the box thinking there but I am not sure how practical it is. We don't have a sport that can sustain TV coverage of club athletics. But so what? TV coverage is good for sponsorship and for encouraging youngsters into the sport. Sponsorship models are changing rapidly and we have a social network of 30k and growing which will be of more and more interest to sponsors. Likewise TV is changing and it will be possible to deliver real-time streaming coverage of events to our community without RTE being needed - admittedly without analysis and more seriously without TV production values but flotrack and YouTube are where the action will be. And that's where the kids will be exposed to the sport.

I think the idea of moving all elite athletes into a small number of big clubs will possibly get you a once off benefit but its not sustainable. If I'm in a small club in the country and you are telling me to continue coaching kids so that they can transfer to Clonliffe or whoever then I'll take the opportunity to retire cos there's nothing in that for me. Instead, small clubs will need to be tied into something bigger formally so that the concentration of talent, which you rightly say is needed, is a natural progression for their athletes rather than a poaching exercise. And that leads on to regional High Performance centres, better integration at the university level and so on...

anotheronebites

i think the fact that you believe coaches would quit coaching because their athletes want to earn more money once they get to the elite end shows another problem with irish athletics in general....small regional coaches at clubs might do well with juveniles but let's face it..if you're going to get to the top end of the sport you need to be coached by people who are 'elite' coaches..look at gillick, the walkers, mary cullen, martin fagan, alistair cragg...theyre not with their club coaches because they simply arent good enuf. elite athletes need to move to bigger clubs in order to earn more money, receive better support, better coaching, be part of a successful organisation rather than something that celebrates winning the county champs once a year..let the smaller clubs with their coaches coach them when they are young but they'll have to change coaches anyway if they want to be any good..and with that coaching change should also be a club change so that all our resources are concentrated towards the top to get the best out of what little elites we have

IrishTrackFan1

anotheronebites wrote: »

i think the fact that you believe coaches would quit coaching because their athletes want to earn more money once they get to the elite end shows another problem with irish athletics in general....small regional coaches at clubs might do well with juveniles but let's face it..if you're going to get to the top end of the sport you need to be coached by people who are 'elite' coaches..look at gillick, the walkers, mary cullen, martin fagan, alistair cragg...theyre not with their club coaches because they simply arent good enuf. elite athletes need to move to bigger clubs in order to earn more money, receive better support, better coaching, be part of a successful organisation rather than something that celebrates winning the county champs once a year..let the smaller clubs with their coaches coach them when they are young but they'll have to change coaches anyway if they want to be any good..and with that coaching change should also be a club change so that all our resources are concentrated towards the top to get the best out of what little elites we have

Agree with most of what you say. I think where we differ is that you see the big clubs as the home of elite coaching. From reading both the High Performance Implementation Plan and the Coaching Implementation Plan as delivered by our last CEO, I would be persuaded that the right place for our national level athletes is in one of the high performance centre located in colleges around the country. Above that we would look to a National High Performance centre based in Abbotstown, whenever that comes to fruition.

The coaching plan talked about the importance of preserving a seamless coaching team approach for the likes of Paul Hession, from his original Athenry coach, through a regional Connacht coaching setup, into a sprints HP centre and on to the National HP centre. That way you get a sustainable model - its harder initially and it takes longer but without the buy-in of the thousands of local coaches there never will be a conveyor belt. And without large numbers you won't get a wide base to your performance pyramid.

thirtyfoot

What is the fascination with money? Do you think Olympians like Terry McHugh, Gary Ryan or TJ Kearns needed money to compete in the league or other events for their club in the '90s? Do you think Jamie Costin was paid this year by West Waterford when competing in the early rounds or Kelly Proper by Ferrybank in the final.

You can't expect clubs to pay athletes. You can't expect our sport to sustain and pay for domestic competition. Athletes should be running for their clubs not because they are getting paid. The Irish athletes who can expect to get paid are probably the real elite, those who are qualifying for majors. So maybe a dozen athletes and these wouldn't get paid for the league either. The rest should compete for the clubs in domestic competitions for free once the competitions are suitable. Currently they are not suitable mainly because a large percentage of the large sub-elite group of athletes don't compete in domestic competitions against each other, for their clubs, with competition the focus and not the €50 or €100 of €150 they might pick up. Its a chicken and egg situation.

Frustrates me when I hear athletes, who have no right to be expected to be paid, give out about their not being enough money for competitions in Ireland. In some cases its valid, for others they just need to get over themselves and compete.

IrishTrackFan1

Tingle wrote: »

What is the fascination with money? Do you think Olympians like Terry McHugh, Gary Ryan or TJ Kearns needed money to compete in the league or other events for their club in the '90s? Do you think Jamie Costin was paid this year by West Waterford when competing in the early rounds or Kelly Proper by Ferrybank in the final.

You can't expect clubs to pay athletes. You can't expect our sport to sustain and pay for domestic competition. Athletes should be running for their clubs not because they are getting paid. The Irish athletes who can expect to get paid are probably the real elite, those who are qualifying for majors. So maybe a dozen athletes and these wouldn't get paid for the league either. The rest should compete for the clubs in domestic competitions for free once the competitions are suitable. Currently they are not suitable mainly because a large percentage of the large sub-elite group of athletes don't compete in domestic competitions against each other, for their clubs, with competition the focus and not the €50 or €100 of €150 they might pick up. Its a chicken and egg situation.

Frustrates me when I hear athletes, who have no right to be expected to be paid, give out about their not being enough money for competitions in Ireland. In some cases its valid, for others they just need to get over themselves and compete.

Agree 100%. Progressive clubs have medical and travel support for their best athletes and that is a real benefit - appearance money shouldn't be needed on top of that.

anotheronebites

maybe i shud clarify..i didnt mean pay an appearance fee for runnin the league..i meant pay them a wage...3/4/5k a year with a bonus structure like almost every other european country...that way instead of irish athletes begging for gear off asics u get clubs doing the deals with asics...the elites get some cash, asics gets promotion from an improved league and irish nationals format and also the guarantee that all those juveniles have to purchase asics gear and equipment due to an exclusivity deal..and when these elites go to competitions on the continent theyre wearing a DSD vest made by asics..the juveniles in DSD see this, flip **** and all go running down to the local club etc etc...you cant expect the league to be any good if the elites dont do it and u cant expect the elites to do it if there is nothing in it for them...and there is nothing in it for them unless theye being paid to do it and they cant get paid unelss the club raises revenue and the clubs cant raise revenue without seeking sponsorship and the sponsors dont want to be involved unelss they get serious promotion and they wont get the serious promotion unless the elites wear the logo on their vest on tv, which requires money etc etc etc..you get the idea..paying the elites in a club is the only way forward. if the elites were concentrated into a few, stronger clubs...you'd see sponsors come on board, the elites get paid, the league get better, more sponsors come on board, more money for clubs and elites...more quality on the domestic scene, more youngsters being exposed to the heightened local media reporting of said domestic races blah blah blah

ChickenTikka

anotheronebites wrote: »

small regional coaches at clubs might do well with juveniles but let's face it..if you're going to get to the top end of the sport you need to be coached by people who are 'elite' coaches..

How are these 'elite' coaches created? Are they just born? Or maybe do they start out as 'small regional coaches' and develop their knowledge as they grow into 'elite' coaches along with some of their athletes? So whatever structures you have need to foster coach development along with athlete development.

I've nothing against an elite athlete moving to an elite coach if that works for the athlete ... but surely they could still represent their local club along with the local club's most promising 17/18/19 year old athletes who might become elite with the right encouragement.

anotheronebites wrote: »

3/4/5k a year with a bonus structure like almost every other european country

How many such wages/elites are we talking? I don't think Irish athletics currently attracts the sponsorship/crowds that would sustain such wages. Some of our elites competed in the National Senior Indoors in Belfast. What sort of specatator numbers paid in to see it and what sort of sponsorship money was generated by it?

thirtyfoot

anotheronebites wrote: »

...you cant expect the league to be any good if the elites dont do it and u cant expect the elites to do it if there is nothing in it for them...and there is nothing in it for them unless theye being paid to do it

Can you clarify what you mean by elite. Say in 400m what is elite or in 1500m what is elite for men? That might help me understand you better as right now I would say only a dozen Irish athletes deserve to get paid for what they do. If you mean elites to be the top 50-75 athletes in the country then they would want to take a run and jump if you think there is nothing in the league or other domestic competitions for them if no money is involved. A club paying their elites 3k-5k a year would be crazy. Maybe 10-15 elites in a club, thats 30k-75 a year. Thats the Cork City-Drogheda-Derry City-Shels style way to run a sporting club and league:p

I'm not sure that there is such a great club structure in Europe. Clonliffe men with a team that wouldn't have won our own league in any year in the '90s managed to come a close 5th in the 2nd to top tier in the European Clubs last year. This included being on a par with the best clubs in Holland, Finland and Switzerland. Yes, Spain, France, Russia, Turkey, some of the Eastern European clubs have very strong clubs with guys from all over the world paid to compete for them but that won't work here due to finance. Maybe if we had €1m (inclusive of legal costs) floating around handy we might be able to do it!!!!

I would see using the clubs and a league as a means to funnell the best athletes to train and compete together as opposed to making it a semi-professional enterprise. When the building blocks are laid, you could look to do that in the future.

anotheronebites

Tingle wrote: »

Can you clarify what you mean by elite. Say in 400m what is elite or in 1500m what is elite for men? That might help me understand you better as right now I would say only a dozen Irish athletes deserve to get paid for what they do.

100m...sub 10.70
200m...sub 21.3
400m...sub 48secs
800m...sub 1.50,0
1500m...sub 3:43
5k..sub 14min

anyone achieving these times should get at least 1k from their club
then bonuses for hitting international standards and winning irish champs

anyone achieving a world b standard or better shud be getting minimum 3k from their club..and obviosly the likes of gillick etc shud be getting in excess of 5k...dsd is the richest club in ireland and could do with loosening the purse strings.


you're wrong about eastern europeans having dozens of athletes from all over the world competiting for them..each club is only allowed 2 guests at the european club championships

but fine, forget my point of having elites getting proper help from their clubs..im sure theyre better off staying with their rinky dink local clubs..with their local coaches who want to use their promising juveniles to 'prove' they can make it as big time coaches only to watch their young talent go by the wayside as they fail to make the jump to international athletics..the sooner irish coaches stop thinking they can cut it the better..they should send their athletes to better, more experienced coaches (sean cahill for example or stephen maguire in the north) who knows what theyre doing..havent any of u read athletics weekly??thats what the brits do and dont we always follow the brits?

and as for the stupid question 'how do coaches become elite?' they certainly dont do it by continuing to exist down in the middle of nowhere ireland..they need to work hand in hand with elite coaches..for example, sean cahill should be paid to mentor all those local hurdles and sprints coaches..jim kidd would be another decent man for a job like that..i dont know any distance coach in ireland who's any good, maybe brendan hackett...so these local coaches in essence become assistant coaches to the big dogs and when the big dogs are done, they throw these smaller coaches a bone, maybe letting them supervise a session or two a month...then when the proper coach move on theres a ready made replacement with the 3 or 4 assistants coming up behind...the promising juniors get proper coaching from our best coaches in groups with our best elites and all those so called local experts get tuition on how to actually coach so, in 5 or ten years when they time has come, theyre ready to seize it. just an opinion is all :cool:

TheRoomWrecker

anotheronebites wrote: »

100m...sub 10.70
200m...sub 21.3
400m...sub 48secs
800m...sub 1.50,0
1500m...sub 3:43
5k..sub 14min

anyone achieving these times should get at least 1k from their club
then bonuses for hitting international standards and winning irish champs

anyone achieving a world b standard or better shud be getting minimum 3k from their club..and obviosly the likes of gillick etc shud be getting in excess of 5k...dsd is the richest club in ireland and could do with loosening the purse strings.

Jeeezzzz Clonliffe would be forking out a fair wack with those cash incentives!!:eek: Maybe add a 5er to the great guinness in the bar and up the lotto to 20quid a ticket

ChickenTikka

anotheronebites wrote: »

but fine, forget my point of having elites getting proper help from their clubs..im sure theyre better off staying with their rinky dink local clubs

...

and as for the stupid question 'how do coaches become elite?' they certainly dont do it by continuing to exist down in the middle of nowhere ireland..

I'll have to defer to your superior wisdom on the matter. I'm in a rinky dink local club in the middle of nowhere ireland. You clearly have a wealth of experience in coaching and athletics to be able to state your opinions so eloquently. Good luck with your strategy!

anotheronebites

like i said..only an opinion..no need to get offended....didnt realize you were so sensitive out there in the middle of nowhere..:D..good luck with producing world champions..i really hope you do it. but this all started from the league and how crap it is..i just gave my thoughts on how to improve it..by enticing elites to do it..people obviously on here have a different view on how to make it better...bye bye

meathcountysec

shels4ever wrote: »

Thanks was thinking of trying to put together a BAC team but dont think we would manage to cover enough events, I could see some of our marathon guys having to sprint
But will see what people think, Used to run in the dublin track leagues as a junior and loved them.

Can composite teams still compete? i.e. teams composed of members from a number of clubs rather than county teams.

shels4ever

meathcountysec wrote: »

Can composite teams still compete? i.e. teams composed of members from a number of clubs rather than county teams.

I think its just two guest can run for a club from what I can see.

meathcountysec

shels4ever wrote: »

I think its just two guest can run for a club from what I can see.

Just had a look around my extensive f(p)iling system and found the attached.

Option 1

Club team with max 2 guests

Option 2

Composite team made up of 2 or more clubs from within a county

Option 3

County team

shels4ever

meathcountysec wrote: »

Just had a look around my extensive f(p)iling system and found the attached.

Option 1

Club team with max 2 guests

Option 2

Composite team made up of 2 or more clubs from within a county

Option 3

County team

Thanks, Just need to find a small club in Dublin with lots of sprinters ::)

meathcountysec

shels4ever wrote: »

Thanks, Just need to find a small club in Dublin with lots of sprinters ::)

Delighted to hear Boards AC is a hot-bed of jumpers and throwers:D

thirtyfoot

shels4ever wrote: »

Thanks, Just need to find a small club in Dublin with lots of sprinters ::)

Fingallians and Bros Pearse? Although they are stronger on the women's side but would have loads of sprinters and jumpers.

thirtyfoot

This is how I would re-structure the league.

Same would apply for mens and womens.

• 1 National Division consisting of 8 teams
• Multiple regional divisions Southern x 2, Eastern x 2, Northern x 2, Western x 1
• 4-5 rounds in Premier Division - starts late April, May, June, July, August, round each month.
• Postpone tradiotional provincial Champs to later in season to accomodate this
• 2 rounds in regional league
• Rd 1 Premier match held at regional venue, say Southern, along with Rd 1 of Southern. Rd 1 of Western held at separate venue
• Rd 2 of Premier held at Eastern venue along with Rd 1 of Eastern league. Rd 1 of Northern held separate venue
• Rd 3 of Premier held at Western venue with Rd 2 of Western. Rd 2 of Southern held at separate venue
• Rd 4 of Premier held at Northern venue with Rd 2 of Northern. Rd 2 of Eastern held at separate venue.
• For all regional matches you could have shortened programs/half program so that you wouldn't need 10-14 athletes to cover all events.

Premier points are totalled throughout season. You win match you get 9, 2nd=7 etc etc. National league is based on match position points as opposed to actual match points. Regional leagues are based on accumulated actual match points, so eg, 110, 107, 99pts etc. Top 2 teams from each region go the National play-off. At regionals you could have divisions, eg, say Eastern Div 1 & 2 with promotion and relegation, always having clubs against other clubs of similar standard.

National Playoff and final Premier match held on the traditional final day in Tullamore. Would see the final Premier match with match position scores counting double on the final day, so 18-14-12-10 etc etc to keep things alive, eg, Tir Chonaill dominated rounds 1-4, Ferrybank had snook 1 win and were behind by 2-3pts. This would have the scenario that Ferrybank could still win league on last day by winning the match. Likewise, battles for relegation with potentially 2-4 teams in danger of relegation to the regional leagues for the next season. Bottom 2 clubs would be relegated after Rd 5.

National Playoff would be a once off. Top 2 on the day would go up.

The main benefits I would see with this are:

• Top clubs (and athletes) are competing against each other regularly
• More reward for consistency throughout the season, not just get to final, roll out big guns
• Less travelling for smaller clubs, less cost
• More local rivalry for smaller clubs
• When smaller clubs develop, getting promotion to National or Div 1 of regional would be a huge achievement
• Clubs in regional leagues could be crowned Regional champions, eg, GCH crowned Western Champs, creates regional rivalry etc. Competition will generally bring out the best in club and people.

Push elements of organisation, officials, venue to the regions as they will all host one National round and one of their own standalone rounds. All in all, I could see it work and really focus on the core of our sport, the club. Also, in this situation, a club such as Boards could over time have enough members to enter the Division 2 (or even 3 if the thing grew) of the Eastern regional league and who knows be competitive.

shels4ever

Tingle wrote: »

This is how I would re-structure the league.

Same would apply for mens and womens.

• 1 National Division consisting of 8 teams
• Multiple regional divisions Southern x 2, Eastern x 2, Northern x 2, Western x 1
• 4-5 rounds in Premier Division - starts late April, May, June, July, August, round each month.
• Postpone tradiotional provincial Champs to later in season to accomodate this
• 2 rounds in regional league
• Rd 1 Premier match held at regional venue, say Southern, along with Rd 1 of Southern. Rd 1 of Western held at separate venue
• Rd 2 of Premier held at Eastern venue along with Rd 1 of Eastern league. Rd 1 of Northern held separate venue
• Rd 3 of Premier held at Western venue with Rd 2 of Western. Rd 2 of Southern held at separate venue
• Rd 4 of Premier held at Northern venue with Rd 2 of Northern. Rd 2 of Eastern held at separate venue.
• For all regional matches you could have shortened programs/half program so that you wouldn't need 10-14 athletes to cover all events.

Premier points are totalled throughout season. You win match you get 9, 2nd=7 etc etc. National league is based on match position points as opposed to actual match points. Regional leagues are based on accumulated actual match points, so eg, 110, 107, 99pts etc. Top 2 teams from each region go the National play-off. At regionals you could have divisions, eg, say Eastern Div 1 & 2 with promotion and relegation, always having clubs against other clubs of similar standard.

National Playoff and final Premier match held on the traditional final day in Tullamore. Would see the final Premier match with match position scores counting double on the final day, so 18-14-12-10 etc etc to keep things alive, eg, Tir Chonaill dominated rounds 1-4, Ferrybank had snook 1 win and were behind by 2-3pts. This would have the scenario that Ferrybank could still win league on last day by winning the match. Likewise, battles for relegation with potentially 2-4 teams in danger of relegation to the regional leagues for the next season. Bottom 2 clubs would be relegated after Rd 5.

National Playoff would be a once off. Top 2 on the day would go up.

The main benefits I would see with this are:

• Top clubs (and athletes) are competing against each other regularly
• More reward for consistency throughout the season, not just get to final, roll out big guns
• Less travelling for smaller clubs, less cost
• More local rivalry for smaller clubs
• When smaller clubs develop, getting promotion to National or Div 1 of regional would be a huge achievement
• Clubs in regional leagues could be crowned Regional champions, eg, GCH crowned Western Champs, creates regional rivalry etc. Competition will generally bring out the best in club and people.

Push elements of organisation, officials, venue to the regions as they will all host one National round and one of their own standalone rounds. All in all, I could see it work and really focus on the core of our sport, the club. Also, in this situation, a club such as Boards could over time have enough members to enter the Division 2 (or even 3 if the thing grew) of the Eastern regional league and who knows be competitive.

And what about the graded leagues, would that be included as part of the Dublin(East) league, Seems like there is a ready made league almost there...

IrishTrackFan1

shels4ever wrote: »

And what about the graded leagues, would that be included as part of the Dublin(East) league, Seems like there is a ready made league almost there...

Well thought out Tingle, would love to see it come about. We might need to think about how the county teams fit in - I guess they can still look to compete at the Premier level if that is there choice - but how would that work with the regional competition in their area?

thirtyfoot

IrishTrackFan1 wrote: »

Well thought out Tingle, would love to see it come about. We might need to think about how the county teams fit in - I guess they can still look to compete at the Premier level if that is there choice - but how would that work with the regional competition in their area?

I would still see county teams working as is. Whether in the Premier/National or the regional. Say a Meath County team at Premier/National or top tier of Regional. If there were enough divisions at regional you could still have Navan or Fr Murphys in Div 2 or 3 of Eastern Division. This will help developing athletes who may not be good enough for their county team. Declaling teams at the start of the league would be key. So, in April, if you are declared for your county team they are your league team. If and when the time comes that Fr Murphys are good enough and in the same division as their county team if could be their call then to pull their athletes from the county team and try progress as a club. Could be a grey area I know but would probably best to see what the county or clubs that have county teams would feel about it. Also, lower tiers at regional could give bigger clubs the chance to enter B teams. Menapians were brave enough to try this before.

thirtyfoot

shels4ever wrote: »

And what about the graded leagues, would that be included as part of the Dublin(East) league, Seems like there is a ready made league almost there...

No, they are separate and not really a league. They are individual athlete based. The focus here would be club. Getting clubs to be competitive and the more competive they get the more ambitious they get and more spread of athletes, more diversity of events. Say boards ac develop and are Div 2 of Eastern. They go well but struggle with jumpers and throwers. You know you will never get promoted with just the runners so you attempts to develop or recruit a few jumpers. In some ways its pushing the development of the sport (as in event diversity etc) to the clubs. Any ambitious club would strive to have a jumper, a thrower, a hurdler etc etc.

shels4ever

Tingle wrote: »

No, they are separate and not really a league. They are individual athlete based. The focus here would be club. Getting clubs to be competitive and the more competive they get the more ambitious they get and more spread of athletes, more diversity of events. Say boards ac develop and are Div 2 of Eastern. They go well but struggle with jumpers and throwers. You know you will never get promoted with just the runners so you attempts to develop or recruit a few jumpers. In some ways its pushing the development of the sport (as in event diversity etc) to the clubs. Any ambitious club would strive to have a jumper, a thrower, a hurdler etc etc.

Sounds good.

Stupid_Private

This is the structure of the League I took part in in London. The main problem I see with the Irish system (and correct me if I'm wrong) but only the best in the country get to take part. This season if I want to take part in track races I can only turn up to individual meets (graded or irish miler) and never get to take part of a team. My club wouldn't be strong enough to compete in Prem or Div 1.

The Southern Men's League is the track & field competition for men in the south of England. It stretches from Norfolk to Cornwall and includes many of the strongest athletics teams in the country.

League Structure

-two regional divisions of twenty-five teams (div 1 & 2) with each team competing in six fixtures a season against four other clubs.
-three area divisions of 16 teams each (div 3) with each team competing in five fixtures a season against three other clubs.
-two local divisions of 7 teams each (div 4) with every team competing in each fixture against all the other clubs.

The season runs from early May to early August. Over the season each club meets all the others in their division.

Meetings

Each meeting comprises a full track and field programme (100m, 200m, 400m, 800m, 1500m, 5000m, 110m hurdles, 400m hurdles, 3000m steeplechase, high jump, long jump, triple jump, pole vault, shot, discus, javelin, hammer, and 4 x 100m and 4 x 400m relay). Each team can have two competitors per event ('A' and 'B' string) and there are separate ('A' and 'B') races for each track event – with the exception of the 1,500 metres, 5,000 metres and steeplechase events where all competitors run together. There are therefore 36 events to cover in an afternoon – which is why we need a good sized squad for each of our teams.

Points scoring is a simple: 5-4-3-2-1 for each event (4-3-2-1 in div 3). The team with the most points wins the fixture. Aggregate points for all the fixtures determine the league position. The top teams are promoted and the bottom teams are relegated at the end of the season with numbers up/down depending on which division.

We were also part of a less formal Wednesday night London league. This league had a similar feel to the graded meets (except it was free and a league rather than individual). There was no harassment from the club trying to get people on the team - they'd just see who turned up on the night in each category.

The Rosenheim League is an inter-club competition, comprising six fixtures held on Wednesday evenings between May and August. The League is split into two divisions. We are in the Eastern Division. At the end of the season the leading clubs in the two divisions meet in a "Final" event to decide the overall champions.

Each meeting has a wide-ranging track programme covering distances from 100m to 3000m. The programme will also include two jumps and two throws and one hurdle race, these events varying from fixture to fixture.

From 2005 on there is a scoring competition for ladies as well. Ladies are scoring in one sprint (100m, 200m or 400m), one middle distance race (800m, 1500m or 3000m), one jump and one throw.

Each club can have as many competitors as they want and each athlete can take part in as many events a they want. The entry is free but you need to run in your club vest.