deleting posts (other people's)

pwd

This is something that happens on this site that annoys me.
Some moderators delete other people's posts.
This post was prompted by what I consider a fairly innocuous example:
http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055855653

The original post used to say "hung" instead of hanged. I replied saying something along the lines of "You mean hanged - hung means something else entirely "

Now that thread has been edited, with my post removed and the original corrected.

I don't care about this per se. I'm using it as an example mainly because I don't think it will lead to a flame war because I doubt the person who censored it will care too much either.

However I have seen a lot of instances where posts have been deleted or edited, because the mod wanted to misrepresent things in the conversation to present themselves in a better light, and the person being censored in a negative light. I haven't posted here in such instances, because I felt it would just lead to a flame war, because they were less trivial; more likely to be provocative.

Do I have any examples? - no of course not! They've all been deleted!

I think there should be more transparency with deleted posts and edits - you should be able to see what you originally posted for example, even if nobody else can (unless it's actually something that would be illegal to publish).

--amadeus--

pwd wrote: »

This is something that happens on this site that annoys me.
Some moderators delete other people's posts.
This post was prompted by what I consider a fairly innocuous example:
http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055855653

The original post used to say "hung" instead of hanged. I replied saying something along the lines of "You mean hanged - hung means something else entirely "

Now that thread has been edited, with my post removed and the original corrected.

I don't care about this per se. I'm using it as an example mainly because I don't think it will lead to a flame war because I doubt the person who censored it will care too much either.

However I have seen a lot of instances where posts have been deleted or edited, because the mod wanted to misrepresent things in the conversation to present themselves in a better light, and the person being censored in a negative light. I haven't posted here in such instances, because I felt it would just lead to a flame war, because they were less trivial; more likely to be provocative.

Do I have any examples? - no of course not! They've all been deleted!

I think there should be more transparency with deleted posts and edits - you should be able to see what you originally posted for example, even if nobody else can (unless it's actually something that would be illegal to publish).

If a Mod <snips> something out of a post and puts a warning in there then it serves two purposes. It lets people know a Mod is in teh thread and what standards are expected and it removes a post that is outside teh charter / breaks teh rules in some way.

If Mods left flame bait posts be then they will get replied to no matter how much a Mod says ignore it. Better to remove it than hand out bans.

pwd

I'm not talking about posts where they insert the word <snip> to indicate they removed something. I'm talking about posts where they delete the whole post, or parts of it without indicating they made changes - often in order to misrepresent what was said.

I'm not arguing that flame bait posts should be left as they are. I think that stronger transparency should be required, so that a mod's editing is clearly visible - such as it is where the <snip> is used. Also (this might already be the case where <snip> is used), the poster and mods should be able to see the original version before editing too (but no one else)

edit: Just to make it completely clear, I don't think the mod who edited the thread in the post I linked had any agenda in the editing, and I'm not complaining about that per se at all - which is largely why I feel it is a good example to use here - since it shouldn't lead to anybody getting offensive etc.

5starpool

It's not something I would ever have advocated, but in this case it seems to have been done to increase thread readability, and while the mod who edited it agreed with your post (assuming he edited the title) it may have been felt in this case that your post then server no purpose anymore and might lead to the topic being derailed.

That would be my 2c interpretation of it anyhow.

pwd

yes I'm not complaining about the actions of the mod at all - I'm just using it as a technical example of what I am talking about.

Overheal

pwd wrote: »

This is something that happens on this site that annoys me.
Some moderators delete other people's posts.
This post was prompted by what I consider a fairly innocuous example:
http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055855653

The original post used to say "hung" instead of hanged. I replied saying something along the lines of "You mean hanged - hung means something else entirely "

Now that thread has been edited, with my post removed and the original corrected.

I don't care about this per se. I'm using it as an example mainly because I don't think it will lead to a flame war because I doubt the person who censored it will care too much either.

However I have seen a lot of instances where posts have been deleted or edited, because the mod wanted to misrepresent things in the conversation to present themselves in a better light, and the person being censored in a negative light. I haven't posted here in such instances, because I felt it would just lead to a flame war, because they were less trivial; more likely to be provocative.

Do I have any examples? - no of course not! They've all been deleted!

I think there should be more transparency with deleted posts and edits - you should be able to see what you originally posted for example, even if nobody else can (unless it's actually something that would be illegal to publish).

With the regards to the emboldened, the example you're providing isn't that. So its hard to say for sure if what you say is actually going on.

If you do see it happen though I guess all you can do is get a screen-capture and bring it then to the attention of the CMod or Admins.

Seeing deleted posts as an end user is a limitation in vBulletin as far as I know. You can however always view edits to your own post, in the blue hyperlink at the bottom of your edited post "Post edited by Overheal on xx:xx:xx" etc.

Ultimately though its up to the Category Mods and Admins to moderate the Moderators: They can see everything. If a Mod is doing something dubious and they get seen doing it, there will be repercussions. If it happens at all. I would think its very rare.

faceman

Ive deleted posts in forums I mod for a number of reasons:

* Content was inappropriate or offensive
* Spam / shills or some trolling

In particular in the Film Reviews forum we delete posts regularly. The rule of that forum is that each post must be a review and no discussions/debates. we prefer to delete posts rather than just ban people.

LoLth

Editing other user's posts to win an argument or make them appear unresonable is not allowed, users arent allowed edit other users posts to prevent exactly this from happening. Mods are allowed edit other users posts as it is understood and expected that a mod would never do it.

If you see a post that has been edited in a way that you find unfair/unjust, then report the post. The mod will be notified as will the CMOD. If necessary this can be brought to the admins attention (mods/cmods/admins can see posts prior to editing when necessary).

You believe that posts have been edited in this way

I have seen a lot of instances where posts have been deleted or edited, because the mod wanted to misrepresent things in the conversation to present themselves in a better light, and the person being censored in a negative light.

And this is something that is taken as a very serious matter, however, without a link to a thread, there's not much we can do to investigate and so stop this from happening.

As Overheal says, I would suspect that this is a rare , if not almost unique, occurrance. I hope I'm right in thinking that though

In general, as a matter of courtesy, a mod will leave a reason for editing at the bottom of the post. This currently isnt a requirement, perhaps something that should be looked at in feedforward? "If a mod edits a post, leave a reason why". Similarly, some (most?) mods will PM a poster to tell them a post has been deleted and why. Usually they will leave a deletion reason but this is only visible to mods/cmods/admins iirc. PMing for deleted posts is time consuming though and I can understand why mods of busy fora would not PM for every post deleted, nor would I expect them to especially in the case of an overly abusive or trollish or spamming post. If they have to take the time to let a spammer or troll know why they have the post deleted then the post has managed to waste the mods time which could have been the aim of the post in the first place....

anyway,

links to threads where you have seen this abuse of editing powers would be muchly appreciated. Wihtout examples we can only really tlak about general policy an say "this is how it should be" and not actually correct anything or help you to understand an edit which you think was nefarious but actually wasnt.

Tallon

I'm sitting here reading this thread and am truely baffled as to why everyone is focusing on the linked thread in the OP?
The OP clearly stated that it was just an example and that it's the bigger picture he's more interested in.

What I'm gathering he's trying to say is:

I think there should be more transparency with deleted posts and edits

In other words, people (if not everyone but at least the poster of the removed post) should be able to see a reason why their post was edited / deleted. Now I know vBulletin doesnt have the option to view edits of a post if a mod has edited it, only if they have edited it themselves, but it's something that could be looked at. (Being posted in feedback and all)


Now, on the other end of it, I know how busy and time consuming cleaning up threads is for mods, but if its a casual edit, the function of vBulletin allows an 'edit reason:' option so this should possibly be mandatory for mods to fill in? (Also, this would cut down on the need for individual PM's )
Unless of course, which I've seen happen, a mod does a whole load of eding / deleting and does a bold post at the end with:

"Mod note: I have edited / deleted posts that (whatever) the thread, please stay on topic"

(or whatever)


<snip>'s should possibly also be made mandatory?

Ninja editing a post is going to cause people to question the way their posts are being dealth with and not leaving them a reason as to why.

A lot of people genuinely don't know why they get edited / deleted / banned whether it be through ignorance of the charter or just not fully awake!

Now on the basis of examples, once again, the OP has said, and it's a valid point, that it's hard to provide examples of something that has been deleted.

Here's a quick example of what I'm talking about:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=64929022&postcount=1

Esel's edit was perfect, a quick reason as to why, although it possibly should have been at the bottom 'reason for editing' so that it could not be re-edited out by the OP.


All in all, I think transparency is a good thing and I agree with the OP.

5starpool

I'd be amazed if there are more than a small handful of examples of mods editing posts to make themselves seem superior and the poster seem worse as this is a big breach of mod ethics. If on the other hand you are talking about quoted FYP's (which I presume you aren't but just checking) then it is a different matter.

Tallon

5starpool wrote: »

I'd be amazed if there are more than a small handful of examples of mods editing posts to make themselves seem superior and the poster seem worse as this is a big breach of mod ethics. If on the other hand you are talking about quoted FYP's (which I presume you aren't but just checking) then it is a different matter.

Yeah, I personally think a manipulation edit is very very rare, if even happens at all.

I just mean for visability and putting people mind at ease

bonkey

pwd wrote: »

Do I have any examples? - no of course not! They've all been deleted!

Its worth pointing out that Mods (and Admins, I assume) can generally still see a post after its been deleted. Where its been edited, they can review the edits.

In other words, if you can point at somewhere and say "I know/believe that the mod edited/deleted stuff here for inappropriate reasons", then it can be looked at.

In terms of how edits/deletes might be handled with more transparency...its perhaps a discussion worth taking to the Feedforward forum.

biko

I occasionally delete posts that are off-topic or flaming, trolling or sometimes because it's quicker/easier than banning the user, similar to this I most often post in thread.

Magnus wrote: »

XXXXXX infracted, read charter about insulting other posters.
Some posts removed for readability.

If posts are left then they tend to drag the whole thread down but with some careful pruning the thread will blossom Also of course with de-AH-ifying a thread before moving it it a more appropriate forum. I'd be trying to fit the style of the forum in my moderation.

Aidric

Interesting that this thread shoule be here. There was an incident on a soccer thread today where a moderator on this site made an ignorant slur on an elderly gentleman who mas making the draw for the Europa League. I reported the post twice. I then went back in to the thread this evening to see if the offending post had been infracted. Instead I find that the post has been deleted and presumably no action take. So is this a case of a fellow mod giving a helping hand and removing the offending post instead of infracting on thread and setting an example?