Mira Elite ST Shower Not Powering On

mooey

Hi Guys

I was hoping you could give me some pointers before I fork out a fortune to a plumber and or sparks.

I have Mira Elite ST and earlier when I went to turn it on, it made a sound to start but then stopped and the power light went out and won't come back on. The pull cord still shows the mains is ok so seems to be the unit with the problem. I tripped the power upstairs anyway just to be sure, and still no power light on the unit.

I have read on these boards of problems with limescale on these showers affecting the temperature etc, but nothing about the power.

Any ideas/guidance are greatly appreciated guys.
Mooey

M cebee

sounds like a loose or burnt connection maybe
the power neons are connected direct to mains input

mooey

Hi Guys

Hoping the below can shed some further light on this problem. I removed the cover a few days ago and tried to blow out any dust etc that was gathered..... I did notice some black smoke stains inside, but not a lot. I tried to power the unit after this but still no joy.

Anyway, out of curiosity tonight I pulled the cord to switch it on and low and behold the power light came on the shower, albeit it flickering. I hit the start button on the shower and the 'power' and 'low pressure' button beneath both flashed, while the unit itself made two short motor sounds then died, and the power light went off again. I switched the unit to low pressure setting and the power light again came on for a split second with the same quick motor sound and gone again.

So the unit is getting power, but it's as though it is aware of a problem hence the flickering light, and when the start button is pushed, the unit is shutting itself down.

Any further ideas ?

Thanks lads..... Mooey.

M cebee

might be further back ie: switch or fuseboard

try running it cold anyhow

might be a pump problem but sounds like excessive voltage drop because of the neon

mooey

Hi M Cebee

I tried switching the unit to cold with Low, Med and High pressure but still no power light on the unit.

I have a guy from Mira coming out on Monday morning to have a look..... hopefully he won't be wearing a balaclava when he arrives... :-(

Thanks for the posts.

Mooey.

M cebee

i would have opted for sparkie to check power first - however

Bruthal

mooey wrote: »

Hi M Cebee

I tried switching the unit to cold with Low, Med and High pressure but still no power light on the unit.

I have a guy from Mira coming out on Monday morning to have a look..... hopefully he won't be wearing a balaclava when he arrives... :-(

Thanks for the posts.

Mooey.

Sounds like connection problem in the shower unit, did you notice if neon stays on on the pull chord when you did get to start shower for a second. If the neon light on shower pull chord remains on the whole time then you know the power is ok to the pull chord feed side at least. It sounds like bad connection in shower unit, neon on shower came on on shower unit but as soon as you put any load on by pressing start button the bad connection fails again. A simple voltage test by an electrician would find problem in a few seconds, be it loose/bad connection or faulty pump etc. Faulty pump unlikely though, as the indicator neon would still stay on.

Connection problem is likely to be the problem somewhere between the pullchord load side and in the shower unit itself once you had neon on the pullchord staying on when shower one was not lighting. If it was between pullchord and back at the MCB board then the pullchord neon would also go off.

Bruthal

M cebee wrote: »

i would have opted for sparkie to check power first - however

Yes definitely, i think sparkie would find problem with that in a very short time. While not possible to tell the fault with certainty without looking at it, showers are very simple devices for a sparks to test for faults. Preferable to calling mira out maybe.

mooey

Hi Robbie/M Cebee

Well you were right. As soon as the Mira guy opened the unit he spotted a wiring falut from installation. He corrected that but then he tested the power and said:

Live to Neutral is 235v...BUT
Live to Earth is only 130v

He reckons there is a problem somewhere in the shower electrical supply and advised that I get a sparks to look at it in detail as the 130v is very dangerous. Unfortunately I did not get to speak with the guy myself as I was reporting my car stolen to insurance company..... arrived home sat at 6pm to find my house broken into and my car taken !

Can you guys explain the above concern in laymans terms ?

Bruthal

mooey wrote: »

Hi Robbie/M Cebee

Well you were right. As soon as the Mira guy opened the unit he spotted a wiring falut from installation. He corrected that but then he tested the power and said:

Live to Neutral is 235v...BUT
Live to Earth is only 130v

He reckons there is a problem somewhere in the shower electrical supply and advised that I get a sparks to look at it in detail as the 130v is very dangerous. Unfortunately I did not get to speak with the guy myself as I was reporting my car stolen to insurance company..... arrived home sat at 6pm to find my house broken into and my car taken !

Can you guys explain the above concern in laymans terms ?

Live to earth should be 235v matching the live to neutral. It means there is most likely a bad connection on the earth somewhere, or as i seen once or twice, a bad or missing neutralising connection to ESB main fuse unit. Get a sparks to test the voltages between live - earth at the MCB board. If thats ok he will check the shower connections (especially earth connections) at the MCB board and at pull chord.
If the voltage live to earth at MCB board is also bad then the neutralising connection needs to be checked. Again these are simple tests for a sparks, but sometimes bad earth problems can be tricky to find, although a shower circuit should be straight forward to check out.

Is it a house on its own or in an estate, This type of problem is usually more prevelant in houses with older wiring, but can occur anywhere.

M cebee

robbie7730 wrote: »

Sounds like connection problem in the shower unit, did you notice if neon stays on on the pull chord when you did get to start shower for a second. If the neon light on shower pull chord remains on the whole time then you know the power is ok to the pull chord feed side at least. It sounds like bad connection in shower unit, neon on shower came on on shower unit but as soon as you put any load on by pressing start button the bad connection fails again. A simple voltage test by an electrician would find problem in a few seconds, be it loose/bad connection or faulty pump etc. Faulty pump unlikely though, as the indicator neon would still stay on.

Connection problem is likely to be the problem somewhere between the pullchord load side and in the shower unit itself once you had neon on the pullchord staying on when shower one was not lighting. If it was between pullchord and back at the MCB board then the pullchord neon would also go off.

ya. load side of pull-cord to shower neon according to symptoms

i was hedgeing my bets:D

mooey

Its a house in an estate.... built around 1984, but the wiring to the shower was only terminated in 2007. I'm not sure if the builder took the connection from the previous shower room. Basically, the current shower room previously had just a bath in it, no shower. The shower was in the 2nd bathroom next to it.

Thanks for all the replies lads.... greatly appreciated.

Bruthal

mooey wrote: »

Its a house in an estate.... built around 1984, but the wiring to the shower was only terminated in 2007. I'm not sure if the builder took the connection from the previous shower room. Basically, the current shower room previously had just a bath in it, no shower. The shower was in the 2nd bathroom next to it.

Thanks for all the replies lads.... greatly appreciated.

Well the voltage should be checked at MCB or fuseboard to ensure 230-240 volts from live to earth by electrician, as the 130v or so from live to earth at shower indicates a bad earth connection somewhere from shower to MCB/fuseboard, or a bad neutralising connection to ESB meter/fuse. A voltage test between a socket live and earth pins showing 230v would also indicate the problem is the shower circuit itself.

M cebee

sparkie will check 'supply' at main board and 'shower circuit'


sounds like a dodgy relocation job

you can have a good quality pull-cord ready for sparkie anyhow

Bruthal

M cebee wrote: »

sparkie will check 'supply' at main board and 'shower circuit'


sounds like a dodgy relocation job

you can have a good quality pull-cord ready for sparkie anyhow

He will indeed, but a test at a socket showing 230v from live to earth will rule out a problem between MCB board and ESB supply. But so will test at MCB board of course.

Could be a dodgy relocation alright, but could be a few things. Last time i seen that exact scenario it was neutralising wire to fuseboard not connected to new MCB board earth bar, simply because it was couple of inches short of the earth bar on new MCB board. Laziness in the extreme.

The fact it is 130v live to earth almost suggests no earth connection at all to shower really, as the extremly high impedence digital voltmeter might show that reading on a copper wire a few meters long but connected to nothing, and the shower itself is connected to water pipes, thats the one area the old type test lamps are better than digital meters.

M cebee

loop-impedance tester will check cpc/neutralizing

if there was copper pipework you'd have to unscrew cpc at shower to be sure

Bruthal

M cebee wrote: »

loop-impedance tester will check cpc/neutralizing

if there was copper pipework you'd have to unscrew cpc at shower to be sure

A mira fella tested and found 130 volts live to earth, im saying that suggests there is no complete earth connection at all, the earth may well be open circuit, the impedence of digital multimeters is so high that you will get a reading of close to the 230 volts by putting one probe onto live and the other into a running tap stream of water. Try it at a socket and see. So therefore a shower will show a reading at it without the earth conductor even connected to it because it has water to it, does not have to be a copper pipe.

We all know a loop impedence tester will tell us. Im saying based on the facts presented here that i think it`s likely the earth to the shower is broken.
But i think you miss what im saying. A digital multimeter will show a reading by putting one probe onto a live terminal and the other onto a plasterboard wall, therefor a reading as low as 130volts means earth is missing.

And in fact mid post here i got curious and removed earth on the shower here at the shower terminal itself, reading live to earth - 209 volts, it has a qualpex pipe. This means 21 volts was dropped along whatever earth path the tiny current through the multimeter took. So roughly 10 times the voltage dropped across the meter than the earth path through water in pipe-plaster wall etc, so if meter was 1megohm then the earth path was 100k ohms. So a reading of 130v as in shower above is even worse, half across meter the mira fella used, half across earth path, so the earth path was equal in impedence to the meter itself, which means earth is non existant.

Your idea of cowboy relocation is looking even more likely i think.

Bruthal

mooey wrote: »

Hi Robbie/M Cebee

Well you were right. As soon as the Mira guy opened the unit he spotted a wiring falut from installation. He corrected that but then he tested the power and said:

Live to Neutral is 235v...BUT
Live to Earth is only 130v

He reckons there is a problem somewhere in the shower electrical supply and advised that I get a sparks to look at it in detail as the 130v is very dangerous. Unfortunately I did not get to speak with the guy myself as I was reporting my car stolen to insurance company..... arrived home sat at 6pm to find my house broken into and my car taken !

Can you guys explain the above concern in laymans terms ?

Looking at them voltage tests to earth you need a sparks to look at that, as you probably have no earth to the shower, the earth wire might be connected to shower itself, but somewhere along the line the earth is broke/open circuited.

M cebee

Ya
A high-impedance tester will show 230v even on a direct-earthed installation(TT)

Any impedance on the live conductor is also in-circuit but it may be a broken 'cpc'

the voltage tester indicates a problem here,but obviousy you need loop-impedance and continuity for any worthwhile readings

Bruthal

M cebee wrote: »

Ya
A high-impedance tester will show 230v even on a direct-earthed installation(TT)

Any impedance on the live conductor is also in-circuit but it may be a broken 'cpc'

the voltage tester indicates a problem here,but obviousy you need loop-impedance and continuity for any worthwhile readings

Well i can absoultely guarantee you with a 130v reading on a multimeter the earth circuit is open, if i got 209v on my one earlier with earth removed from shower, then 130v is absolutely certain open earth.
Definitely if shower is working properly now then it has open earth with that 130v. I would of thought it obvious. I know some would think 130v, it must be not a great connection, well with a digital multimeter it means open earth. As you rightly said, even a lone earth rod will show 230v on a multimeter, but might well show 5 or 10 ohms on a loop tester. Or even if it shows 100 ohms on the earth rod it will show 230v. It would need to get to hundreds of K`ohms to show anything less than 230v. Thats absolute certainty. Beyond doubt. Anyone that disputes that i would gladly show it in practice. So 130v on the multimeter means non existant earth,


loop impedence tester will tell you resistance, but its not infallible, if for example the shower earth wire was just touching the MCB board earth bar, it would likely still show as a good test but in a fault condition might not be good enough.

Bruthal

When i said i seen exact same thing before where the neutralising connection was not connected in MCB board, in that case it was actually about 220v between neutral and earth i think it was.

That was caused by a 200 watt bulb in a 100 watt max enclosure, and the wiring and fitting had melted, and because the the neutralising connection had not been connected, nothing tripped.

The earth rod was still connected ok, but it did`t have a low enough impedence to operate even the 10 amp light MCB, which did operate the minute i connected the neutralising wire to MCB board while the ESB fella eas there watching. I remember saying to him before we connected it that something was likely to trip.

I dont think a loop impedence tester is required to do diagnosis on the shower problem myself. If i tested with voltmeter and it said 130v L-E and 0v between N-E then i would be confident its open circuit on earth, or loose connection where its so loose there is no contact. Using the loop tester after the earth problem is fixed is useful alright.

Bruthal

M cebee wrote: »

Ya
A high-impedance tester will show 230v even on a direct-earthed installation(TT)

Any impedance on the live conductor is also in-circuit but it may be a broken 'cpc'

the voltage tester indicates a problem here,but obviousy you need loop-impedance and continuity for any worthwhile readings

So you reckon the 130v L-E does`t tell us much? Sometimes strange readings can show up alright. It would have been useful to hear it was 0v N-E. Although open earth could have reading above neutral. But if you stand with one probe on live and the other into a running tap water, only touching the water stream it will show the full 230v. So would you not deduct there that 130v reading means no earth is there at the shower? And a loop test will certainly fail.

M cebee

robbie7730 wrote: »

When i said i seen exact same thing before where the neutralising connection was not connected in MCB board, in that case it was actually about 220v between neutral and earth i think it was.

That was caused by a 200 watt bulb in a 100 watt max enclosure, and the wiring and fitting had melted, and because the the neutralising connection had not been connected, nothing tripped.

The earth rod was still connected ok, but it did`t have a low enough impedence to operate even the 10 amp light MCB, which did operate the minute i connected the neutralising wire to MCB board while the ESB fella eas there watching. I remember saying to him before we connected it that something was likely to trip.

I dont think a loop impedence tester is required to do diagnosis on the shower problem myself. If i tested with voltmeter and it said 130v L-E and 0v between N-E then i would be confident its open circuit on earth, or loose connection where its so loose there is no contact. Using the loop tester after the earth problem is fixed is useful alright.

There should be a time-delay rcd fitted for TT to cover all circuits
for that exact reason-'Automatic Disconnection'

Same with gennys if people hook them up to a house .You need a rcd on the supply cable for L-E shorts

Bruthal

M cebee wrote: »

There should be a time-delay rcd fitted for TT to cover all circuits
for that exact reason-'Automatic Disconnection'

Same with gennys if people hook them up to a house .You need a rcd on the supply cable for L-E shorts

And the relationship between this and my last post is?

M cebee

the main rcd-direct earth combination should disconnect L-E faults on the lighting circuit

same as the 10amp mcb-neutralized combination for standard tn-c-s

Bruthal

M cebee wrote: »

There should be a time-delay rcd fitted for TT to cover all circuits
for that exact reason-'Automatic Disconnection'

Same with gennys if people hook them up to a house .You need a rcd on the supply cable for L-E shorts

Maybe you thought i meant the house was a TT house, it was`t, as i said in earier post the old fuseboard was changed to a new MCB board, and the neutralising wire was too short by the look of it and so left unconnected.

Bruthal

M cebee wrote: »

the main rcd-direct earth combination should disconnect L-E faults on the lighting circuit

same as the 10amp mcb-neutralized combination for standard tn-c-s

Well obviously,, but as i said in earlier post, it was not a TT house, the neutralising wire was not re connected after board was changed. post #15

broadband connection drivin me mad today

M cebee

sorry i missed that

he should be kicked out of any organization he's in for not doing a loop-impedance test(prob didn't have a tester)

same for anyone that bypasses an rcd-i'm still shocked when i see it done

at least tell the customer there's a problem and i'm ****ed if i know what it is! rather than bypass

Bruthal

M cebee wrote: »

sorry i missed that

Ye would wonder would the RCD covering everything come in at some stage even on T-n. Its needed when no neutralising alright, as earth rods can be a not so great connection to earth and not a reliable low impedence path, although i`ve been down this arguement before about earth rods.

Or maybe RCBO`s on all circuits instead, probably not needed with T-n but who knows what may change. Current operated RCD`s were one of electricals great advances, I wonder would the above shower trip on direct earth fault, i think it might not.

Bruthal

M cebee wrote: »

sorry i missed that

he should be kicked out of any organization he's in for not doing a loop-impedance test(prob didn't have a tester)

same for anyone that bypasses an rcd-i'm still shocked when i see it done

at least tell the customer there's a problem and i'm ****ed if i know what it is! rather than bypass

I think the owner of the house changed the board himself, he did`t say it at the time because the esb called into him about the problem, and the esb fella was there when i arrived to connect the neutralise wire. I said to him before i connected it that it likely something will trip. It was later when i looking for the fault in the house i seen the makeshift wiring job. It was then he said he wired it himself. Not many in my 20 odd years would beat it.

Bypass rcd, never. Disconnect the circuit causing it, bypassing is the easy way out. I seen one house before where it was tripping even with the main switch off so finding the circuit causing it was`t easy. But even still you find the problem.